Container question

[Jackpunx 0]

I’m just off of AFF .. I was using student equipment.. I didn’t realize it until I got rental gear.. but it was pretty uncomfortable.. so when I got the rental gear.. after I pulled.. I felt like my shoulder straps were at least 1" off of my shoulders.. didn’t feel safe.. I had the leg straps as tight as I could get them.. Are they adjustable? or is that the way they are supposed to be? or should a rig be custom fitted..
Im pretty normal size.. 170 5' 10"
right now Im jumping a spectre 230 .. worked my way down from a 260.. I want to try a 190 .. but I think Im going to want to buy a 170..
any suggestions?

If anyone has one.. Im looking for a full rig
thanks

[NickDG 23]

It's pretty normal for some space to exist between the top of your shoulders and harness when you are under canopy. An inch is nothing to worry about and is a function of how long the main lift webs are. (These are the parts of the harness that run down the front of your body). If it's way more distance that that, like 6 to 8 inches between your shoulders and the rig there's a potential you can fall backwards out of the rig.

If you are really worried have an Instructor help you hook up your rig to the DZs hanging harness (the thing you practiced cutaways in) and see if you can wiggle out of the rig.

NickD BASE 194

[Dionysus 0]

One of the difficulties of flying rental gear is that it never seems to fit just right. If you have some concerns with the rig you are currently jumping, or any future rig for that matter, I would recommend finding an instructor or rigger to look at the fit to make sure it is ok.
As for purchasing a used rig here is what I would do, assuming it is not immediately available to try on. When you find a used rig ask the current owner for the harness size. FYI the harness measurements are on an ID tag attached to the rig. Once you have those measurements get with a rigger and have him measure you as if you were buying that container brand new. BTW a tip for your rigger might be appropriate for this work, use your discretion. The rigger should then be able to compare the measurements and see how close of a fit it will be. Keep in mind some things can be changed after the rig has been built, the legstraps for example. Obviously there is a charge for those changes that you will want to consider before making a purchasing. If the measurements indicate that it might be a reasonable fit then I would then go ahead and try to arrange with the seller a way for you to try it on. By taking these measurements and comparing them before potentially having a rig shipped to you you can save some time by weeding out the rigs that are way too big or small.
IMHO your body size and weight is fairly middle of the road for most skydivers so you should find plenty of used gear that fits well. It's the body types and each end of the spectrum, really big and really small, that struggle to find used containers.
Good luck!

[Jackpunx 0]

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It's pretty normal for some space to exist between the top of your shoulders and harness when you are under canopy. An inch is nothing to worry about and is a function of how long the main lift webs are. (These are the parts of the harness that run down the front of your body). If it's way more distance that that, like 6 to 8 inches between your shoulders and the rig there's a potential you can fall backwards out of the rig.

If you are really worried have an Instructor help you hook up your rig to the DZs hanging harness (the thing you practiced cutaways in) and see if you can wiggle out of the rig.

NickD BASE 194

LOL.. Ok.. its no where near 6-8" .. so Im cool.. I never felt like I was going to wiggle out of the back..
over all it was an infinity and was comfortable, smaller and lighter.. I liked it a lot.. are they all the same for the most part?

[Jackpunx 0]

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One of the difficulties of flying rental gear is that it never seems to fit just right. If you have some concerns with the rig you are currently jumping, or any future rig for that matter, I would recommend finding an instructor or rigger to look at the fit to make sure it is ok.
As for purchasing a used rig here is what I would do, assuming it is not immediately available to try on. When you find a used rig ask the current owner for the harness size. FYI the harness measurements are on an ID tag attached to the rig. Once you have those measurements get with a rigger and have him measure you as if you were buying that container brand new. BTW a tip for your rigger might be appropriate for this work, use your discretion. The rigger should then be able to compare the measurements and see how close of a fit it will be. Keep in mind some things can be changed after the rig has been built, the legstraps for example. Obviously there is a charge for those changes that you will want to consider before making a purchasing. If the measurements indicate that it might be a reasonable fit then I would then go ahead and try to arrange with the seller a way for you to try it on. By taking these measurements and comparing them before potentially having a rig shipped to you you can save some time by weeding out the rigs that are way too big or small.
IMHO your body size and weight is fairly middle of the road for most skydivers so you should find plenty of used gear that fits well. It's the body types and each end of the spectrum, really big and really small, that struggle to find used containers.
Good luck!

thanks for the info.. I will tip my rigger well.. I have been looking..
I have no idea what Im looking for and why.. Makes wonder if i should just bite the bullet and purchase new.. (what are your thougts on that?) I would love to save the money.. but I could find it somwhere if I needed to.

Another question I have.. should your reserve be the same size as your main? I see lots of peopld with smaller reserves..
In an emergency situation.. shouldnt your reserve be a bit more docile then your main?

thanks

[skybytch 273]

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Once you have those measurements get with a rigger and have him measure you as if you were buying that container brand new.

Possession of a rigger's ticket does not mean that someone is competent at determining what size harness a person needs. A better choice would be an experienced gear salesperson.

But none of that is really needed. Determining what size harness a person needs is pretty simple. Take your height in inches, subtract your inseam (crotch to floor) in inches, subtract 20 and you'll end up with close to the MLW length you'll need. For example, I'm 5'8" (68") with a 33" inseam. 68" - 33" - 20" = 15" - so a 15" MLW should be at least close to what I need on most all harness/container systems.

Legstrap length is so easily modified (and there's enough fudge factor there) that it's not worth worrying about. The only other issue would be lateral length - as long as the person the harness was built for is the same basic body type as the person buying it, no worries. In addition, most container manufacturers don't note the legstrap or lateral lengths on the container, so most sellers won't know what they are and fewer still would know how to measure them anyway.

I used the above system to size used gear over the phone and internet for years. It works.

Regardless of any of the above, when buying a used harness/container system sight unseen, always insist that you be allowed to return it for a refund if it ends up not fitting correctly.

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It's the body types and each end of the spectrum, really big and really small, that struggle to find used containers.

Finding a harness/container system out there used that will fit his body isn't an issue. It's finding a used container to fit a main bigger than 170 sq ft that's going to be a challenge.

[NickDG 23]

>>are they all the same for the most part?<<

Yes, if the main lift webs are so short there is no space between your shoulders and the rig when under canopy, you wouldn't be able to stand up straight in the rig.

NickD BASE 194

[Dionysus 0]

When I purchased my first rig I went new. I did it for a couple reasons. First I'm a big guy and it is very hard for me to find used gear that would fit acceptably. The second was I just wanted new. With new you don't have to worry about the condition or how it has been treated because, well, it's new. However, if I could do it over again I think I would have spent more time looking for a good used container. The reason is I only used my first container for about 100 jumps. While I was able to sell it quickly you still take a bit of a hit of depreciation. For someone of an easy to fit body type, like you it sounds, I would recommend looking for a good used container as a first rig.
As for the reserve size I would direct you to a canopy coach who you trust to have that discussion with. Your canopy coach should be able to guide you towards an appropriately sized main and reserve and you will then know what size container you need to look for.

[bob.dino 1]

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Another question I have.. should your reserve be the same size as your main? I see lots of peopld with smaller reserves..
In an emergency situation.. shouldnt your reserve be a bit more docile then your main?

Smart thinking. A larger, more docile reserve is a desirable thing, especially if you're low, possibly injured/unconscious, and away from the DZ.

Lots has been written on this subject - use the Search Posts link above & read to your heart's content.

[EvilLurker 2]

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Another question I have.. should your reserve be the same size as your main? I see lots of peopld with smaller reserves..

Well, if you're under your reserve, it means you chopped your main, so you lost about 10 pounds. I'm jumping a 170 main and a 160 reserve, so the wing loading should be about the same. I weigh 150-155 without gear, so that's not in any way a highly loaded reserve, in my opinion. I figure I could survive landing it without a flare, or unconscious. (Until it put me into the river or high-tension lines, with my luck).
Choosing a reserve that requires a high degree of skill to land safely always seemed risky, so I gave up some "sleekness" for peace of mind. Personal choice.

[justinb138 0]

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Another question I have.. should your reserve be the same size as your main? I see lots of peopld with smaller reserves..

Well, if you're under your reserve, it means you chopped your main, so you lost about 10 pounds. I'm jumping a 170 main and a 160 reserve, so the wing loading should be about the same.

Not really. I landed with my main still in the container on my only reserve ride.

[dekac99 0]

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Once you have those measurements get with a rigger and have him measure you as if you were buying that container brand new.

Possession of a rigger's ticket does not mean that someone is competent at determining what size harness a person needs. A better choice would be an experienced gear salesperson.

But none of that is really needed. Determining what size harness a person needs is pretty simple. Take your height in inches, subtract your inseam (crotch to floor) in inches, subtract 20 and you'll end up with close to the MLW length you'll need. For example, I'm 5'8" (68") with a 33" inseam. 68" - 33" - 20" = 15" - so a 15" MLW should be at least close to what I need on most all harness/container systems.

Legstrap length is so easily modified (and there's enough fudge factor there) that it's not worth worrying about. The only other issue would be lateral length - as long as the person the harness was built for is the same basic body type as the person buying it, no worries. In addition, most container manufacturers don't note the legstrap or lateral lengths on the container, so most sellers won't know what they are and fewer still would know how to measure them anyway.

I used the above system to size used gear over the phone and internet for years. It works.

Regardless of any of the above, when buying a used harness/container system sight unseen, always insist that you be allowed to return it for a refund if it ends up not fitting correctly.

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It's the body types and each end of the spectrum, really big and really small, that struggle to find used containers.

Finding a harness/container system out there used that will fit his body isn't an issue. It's finding a used container to fit a main bigger than 170 sq ft that's going to be a challenge.

Does it mean that a container w/ MLW=16 (6'/185lb) is too small for me? Based on your calculations I should be looking for a container w/ MLW=18 right?

[Dionysus 0]

Thanks for the clarification Skybytch, that's great advice! We don't have a full gear store at my home dz so I sometimes forget about you folks at dzs that do have one, or have one close by.

[Jackpunx 0]

reply] When I purchased my first rig I went new. I did it for a couple reasons. First I'm a big guy and it is very hard for me to find used gear that would fit acceptably. The second was I just wanted new. With new you don't have to worry about the condition or how it has been treated because, well, it's new. However, if I could do it over again I think I would have spent more time looking for a good used container. The reason is I only used my first container for about 100 jumps. While I was able to sell it quickly you still take a bit of a hit of depreciation. For someone of an easy to fit body type, like you it sounds, I would recommend looking for a good used container as a first rig.
As for the reserve size I would direct you to a canopy coach who you trust to have that discussion with. Your canopy coach should be able to guide you towards an appropriately sized main and reserve and you will then know what size container you need to look for.

[Dionysus 0]

I'm happy to tell you my progression but I would also like to point out that what I did may or may not be suitable for you. So please don't take what I say as a recommendation, I only offer it as a reference.
My first rig was a Mirage G3 with a Sabre 2 230 loaded at about 1 to 1. I received that rig when I had about 40 or so jumps. My second canopy and rig was another G3 with a Lotus (Big Air Sportz) 190 loaded at about 1.25. I think I had about 150 jumps when I bought that. The reason I ended up getting a whole new rig is that the 190 would not fit in my first rig. My first rig had a PD235 reserve and my second had a PD176 reserve.
If you were to buy a container sized for a 170 you *should* be able to put a 190 of similar construction in it. I would add at this point that a good gear dealer will be able to tell what canopies will fit in any given container size. I would also mention that putting the largest canopy possible in a given container size can make it more of a challenge to pack. This is especially true if you are not the greatest packer on the DZ, like me for example
The reason for the downsize is that as I received more coaching and practice I began to appreciate the quicker response of the smaller canopy.
Since you are out at Perris you have some of the most experienced skydivers in the world all around you to get help from. I have been there a number of times and on one of my trips I worked with Clint Clawson (it was great coaching!) from the canopy school. I think he or any of the canopy school coaches could provide you with excellent feedback on what would be appropriate for you as a first set of gear. I also think just as highly of the Square 1 folks at the gear store. I have purchased a number of items from them and have always been pleased with the service. The rental/purchase deal they have sounds pretty good to me.
I know that buying that first set of gear takes a significant amount of trust in your instructors, it did for me anyway. Between the canopy school and Square 1 you should end up with a good and appropriate first rig.

[Jackpunx 0]

thanks for the replyso you jumped about 150 or so jumps before you jumped below 1.1?
I wouldnt consider myself very aggressive.. but others would..
Im thinking your absolutley right with reguards to getting the right gear based on trust..
but the people at squar 1 are pushing me towards new..
I think at this point it would be smarter for me to put my money towards jumping rather than new gear..
I think if I plan ahead and get something that is made for a 190.. I should be able to fit up to 3 sizes down from that.. (thats what i have read anyway)
Or could just add wieght if I wanted to be aggressive?

[skybytch 273]

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but the people at squar 1 are pushing me towards new..

Of course they are. They make more money selling you a new rig than they do selling you a used one.

That's not to say they are wrong for doing so. The demo program Square 1 offers is, imho, the best deal gong for a novice jumper. At their Perris store you have access to more containers and more canopies than at any other gear store I've seen, and it's all modern, up to date equipment - no ragged out mains or 15 year old containers like some other gear stores and dz's offer for rental. This allows you to jump pretty much everything that's out there before you make the decision of which is right for you, which is the best way to figure that out. The program also allows you to downsize slowly, biff landings on someone else's gear (and jumpsuits), learn to pack on non-new canopies, and not have to deal with reserve repacks and AAD maintainence.

If you have enough cash on hand to put down the required deposit, do it.

I'd suggest that you talk with the folks at Square 1 (particularly Brenda or Dave) and one or more of the instructors at Perris regarding what size canopies might be right for you. I'd also suggest that you schedule a canopy control course ASAP.

And please... save aggressive for when you know WTF you are doing.

[Jackpunx 0]

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but the people at squar 1 are pushing me towards new..

Of course they are. They make more money selling you a new rig than they do selling you a used one.

That's not to say they are wrong for doing so. The demo program Square 1 offers is, imho, the best deal gong for a novice jumper. At their Perris store you have access to more containers and more canopies than at any other gear store I've seen, and it's all modern, up to date equipment - no ragged out mains or 15 year old containers like some other gear stores and dz's offer for rental. This allows you to jump pretty much everything that's out there before you make the decision of which is right for you, which is the best way to figure that out. The program also allows you to downsize slowly, biff landings on someone else's gear (and jumpsuits), learn to pack on non-new canopies, and not have to deal with reserve repacks and AAD maintainence.

If you have enough cash on hand to put down the required deposit, do it.

I'd suggest that you talk with the folks at Square 1 (particularly Brenda or Dave) and one or more of the instructors at Perris regarding what size canopies might be right for you. I'd also suggest that you schedule a canopy control course ASAP.

And please... save aggressive for when you know WTF you are doing.

Im going down there today.. I'll talk to them.. and make a decision in the next couple weeks with regards to new or used. I wasnt bad mouthing them for pushing me new.. just have talked to lots of people who suggest used
Right now Im just really enjoying the new sport.. I feel like Im pretty conservative.. My other friends (non skydivers/boat racers) call me nuts.. Im nothing like some of the people I see swooping at the DZ..lol
I appreciate your concern about being aggressive.. I guess I should have worded it different.. Im just one of you guys.. in the beginning stages..
I like the way my legs work right now.. so.. I'll be cool.. I promise
I'll let you know what they say..
but my question is..
If I think I want to go say 190 to 170 to 150... can I do all that on the same container?
thanks

[skybytch 273]

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just have talked to lots of people who suggest used

How many of them have something for sale that "should work for you"? I suggest used to a lot of people as well (my first two rigs were used and I was very happy with them), but for those who jump at Perris and have the cash to buy new I'll always recommend Sq1's demo program.

One nice thing about the demo program that I didn't mention. Most people end up buying - and having the skills to fly - something at least one size smaller than what they would have purchased had they bought gear right off student status.

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If I think I want to go say 190 to 170 to 150... can I do all that on the same container?

For the majority of containers out there, yes you can.

Some people will suggest that you buy a container to fit a 170 and stuff a 190 in it; I disagree with that approach. Seen too many people who give up on packing because it's too hard and/or downsize too soon because it's hard to pack/looks like crap. Have seen a few broken stiffeners and damage around the grommets on the main closing flaps from doing this as well.

[Jackpunx 0]

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just have talked to lots of people who suggest used

How many of them have something for sale that "should work for you"? I suggest used to a lot of people as well (my first two rigs were used and I was very happy with them), but for those who jump at Perris and have the cash to buy new I'll always recommend Sq1's demo program.

One nice thing about the demo program that I didn't mention. Most people end up buying - and having the skills to fly - something at least one size smaller than what they would have purchased had they bought gear right off student status.

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If I think I want to go say 190 to 170 to 150... can I do all that on the same container?

For the majority of containers out there, yes you can.

Some people will suggest that you buy a container to fit a 170 and stuff a 190 in it; I disagree with that approach. Seen too many people who give up on packing because it's too hard and/or downsize too soon because it's hard to pack/looks like crap. Have seen a few broken stiffeners and damage around the grommets on the main closing flaps from doing this as well.

thanks you

[dgskydive 0]

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but the people at squar 1 are pushing me towards new..

I can tell you why they do that. You are working your way down now in canopy size. If you buy new for a 190, you will be able to put a 170 into it no problem when the time comes. If you have the money to do it, it will be better for you in the long run. As the rig will be built for you, it will be very comfortable and you will be able to downsize safely with that container. The big thing is the comfort you will get from the rig, and you won't be wasting money on the used rig.

If they think you are downsizing to fast, listen to them!!!!!!!!! The staff at SQ1 has seen many things that you may not even think about. If they are telling you that you are going to fast LISTEN TO THEM!!!!! I used to work for SQ1 and believe it or not they are looking out for your best interest. Many people have come before you and not listened to them and are now in a wheel chair or worse. Ask them about the many people they have seen that have really messed themselves up by trying to go to fast. DON'T BE A STATISTIC!!!!!! PLEASE!!!

My advice to new people buying their first set of gear is to buy a new HC and Reserve and a used 1st main. Because you won't stay on the main for a long time.

SQ1 has a really good demo program that allows you to even just buy your HC and Reserve while continuing to use their mains while you downsize. No need to rush or be aggresive while downsizing. That can kill you. Be safe and take your time. SQ1 allows you the chance to do that.

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I wouldnt consider myself very aggressive.. but others would..

Listen to the others. They may not be able to get the point across in a way that you can understand, but they are trying to keep you safe and in the sport a lot longer then you may otherwise if you don't take their advice.

Dom

[Elisha 1]

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My advice to new people buying their first set of gear is to buy a new HC and Reserve and a used 1st main. Because you won't stay on the main for a long time.

Matter of fact, I'm almost afraid to buy a new main since I'd have to pack a new friggin' main! Aaaaarrrrggh!

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[Jackpunx 0]

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but the people at squar 1 are pushing me towards new..

I can tell you why they do that. You are working your way down now in canopy size. If you buy new for a 190, you will be able to put a 170 into it no problem when the time comes. If you have the money to do it, it will be better for you in the long run. As the rig will be built for you, it will be very comfortable and you will be able to downsize safely with that container. The big thing is the comfort you will get from the rig, and you won't be wasting money on the used rig.

If they think you are downsizing to fast, listen to them!!!!!!!!! The staff at SQ1 has seen many things that you may not even think about. If they are telling you that you are going to fast LISTEN TO THEM!!!!! I used to work for SQ1 and believe it or not they are looking out for your best interest. Many people have come before you and not listened to them and are now in a wheel chair or worse. Ask them about the many people they have seen that have really messed themselves up by trying to go to fast. DON'T BE A STATISTIC!!!!!! PLEASE!!!

My advice to new people buying their first set of gear is to buy a new HC and Reserve and a used 1st main. Because you won't stay on the main for a long time.

SQ1 has a really good demo program that allows you to even just buy your HC and Reserve while continuing to use their mains while you downsize. No need to rush or be aggresive while downsizing. That can kill you. Be safe and take your time. SQ1 allows you the chance to do that.

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I wouldnt consider myself very aggressive.. but others would..

Listen to the others. They may not be able to get the point across in a way that you can understand, but they are trying to keep you safe and in the sport a lot longer then you may otherwise if you don't take their advice.

Thanks for the reply,
Im not suggesting to SQ1 what I feel my progression is.. Im totally open minded and not into rushing this.. Just want a container that supports the progression.. So in other words.. I’m doing it on their time.. not mine..
as far as the other people thinking I might be a little aggressive..
Those are people who would never jump out of a plane or go over 100mph in a boat..

I want to progress slow.. Im way more into RW then aggressive canopy rides.. and don’t really have the interest right now for a small canopy.. I just want to have a nice comfy container
I think my 1.1 is a 190.. I'll work my way down to that and see how I feel.. I'll probably purchase a used 190.. fly it for a while and maybe go down to a 170.. I really don’t plan on going below 1.1 until I have at least 150 jumps under my belt..
I like the way my legs work right now and want to keep them metal free

thanks for the info and re enforcment..
Im going new on everything but my main

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[popsjumper 2]

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....My advice to new people buying their first set of gear is to buy a new HC and Reserve and a used 1st main. Because you won't stay on the main for a long time.

I like the idea of buying all used at first....when you get landings down to the point of not rolling in the dirt a lot, then go with the new system.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239