April 2010 Parachutist, rigid helmets for tandem students

[peek 21]

By this time, most USPA members have received their April 2010 Parachutist magazine.

On page 67, Jim Crouch, headquarters Director of Safety and Training, suggests that it might be appropriate to start considering rigid helmets for tandem students.

He provides some good arguments for this, and I can't say that I see any downsides.

Comments?

[skybytch 273]

Head butt. Bad enough with frap hats, I sure wouldn't want to be the person on the back if the person on front had a hard helmet on.

[PhreeZone 20]

Have you seen the article? They are hybrid helmets that are softer then carbon fiber but harder then leather. Besides, a human head does not exactly have a lot of padding at the back to make it much softer then a hard helmet already.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[djmarvin 2]

Over the few thousand tandems I have done I have only had a student bop me in the head a handful of times. Had I been wearing a hard helmet I doubt it would have hurt much more (not very hard strikes). Add the soft liner outside and it would have probably hurt even less. I think it is definitely an idea worth taking a deeper look at.

edited to correct grammer (and still probaby wrong)

DJ Marvin
AFF I/E, Coach/E, USPA/UPT Tandem I/E
http://www.theratingscenter.com

[riggerrob 643]

Agreed!
One of my worst tandem landings saw a student swing his head back as we touched down.
The next thing I knew, I was sprinting towards the King Air trying to determine how many teeth I had left!

I vote against hard-shell helmets for tandem students.

[skybytch 273]

Quote

They are hybrid helmets that are softer then carbon fiber but harder then leather. Besides, a human head does not exactly have a lot of padding at the back to make it much softer then a hard helmet already.

My bad. I was under the impression that frap hats were used because they had those bumpers in them, thus hopefully making the back of the student's head softer than it would be without a helmet of any sort when it goes into the instructors nose.

[airtwardo 7]

Somebody brought up a point in another thread regarding liability concerns and I think in some respect that concern can bleed over into this discussion...

Last weekend my neighbor who had made a few jumps 30 years ago in his college days, took his son down to do a couple tandems for the kids 18th...both father and son made two.

Next day we were talking about the jumps, DZ's, people ect.

This guy is a high power attorney and it was interesting to get a 'semi' wuffo's take on the process.

HE brought up how it was understandable though somewhat sneaky how the video-man gave them a 'test' just before jumping and how the warning label on the harness was shown in close-up...he also questioned the fact that everyone on the plane was wearing a helmet with the exception of he & his son, and that when he inquired about it he was basically blown off.

He told me that because of the excitement of the moment he didn't dwell on it but that the day after it was kinda bothering him, it seemed he said to be a pretty basic safety precaution.

I asked him point blank if in his consideration there might be a liability concern if a tandem student were to incur an injury that a helmet may have prevented...even in light of the waiver that's signed.

~He made a good point, he asked me how often I wear my helmet...(every jump)...what my license/rating was...( D- 'expert' )...considering that, he would much rather be representing the plaintiff than the defendant.

We dropped it and moved on to other topics, but it gave some food for thought.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Andy9o8 2]

As a jumper, I understand and support the TIs' need to avoid getting cracked in the face by a student's hard helmet. As a lawyer, I recognize that, even with a signed waiver, a DZ & TI will ultimately be held to a standard of "protect the student first and foremost".

Sometimes when you have a hybrid problem, you need to have a hybrid solution. A tandem student helmet with a shock-absorbent inner shell and a hard outer shell (to protect the student), with soft padded bumpers, over the hard shell, on the outer back of the helmet (to protect the TI) - or some kind of roughly similar type of design (as discussed in the article) - just might be the hybrid solution we're looking for.

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

Hi Gary,

I read the article. Then I saw the photo on Page 39 ( upper r-hand corner ) of Mr. Crouch and a tandem student in a soft hat.

JerryBaumchen

[jcrouch 0]

Aww Jerry,
That's not fair! I have thousands of tandems with frap hats on students! That photo was actually taken years ago! The padded hard helmet works great. I have been testing it for a couple of years, and I will be phasing out the frap hats this season in favor of the hard helmets. Here is a photo of one during deployment.

[dandandan 0]

I'm looking at the pictures of the hybrid helmets, and it seems there a lot of what seems to be "unforgiving" areas where the soft bumper simply is not there (i.e. anywhere that isn't directly down the center line) how much extra would it cost to just pad the entire outside? think along the lines of a hard helmet wearing a frappe hat.

I'd wait for you outside the courtoom.
Taunting; when all of your appeals were declined.

[topdocker 0]

I'll just keep my business cards handy at the DZ.

"Rebuilding smiles, after your teeth fell miles!"

top, DDS

Jump more, post less!

[Amazon 7]

Quote

By this time, most USPA members have received their April 2010 Parachutist magazine.

On page 67, Jim Crouch, headquarters Director of Safety and Training, suggests that it might be appropriate to start considering rigid helmets for tandem students.

He provides some good arguments for this, and I can't say that I see any downsides.

Comments?

Would this include a full face helmet for the TI to protect him from getting biffed in the face and incapacitated there by rendering both of them in great danger?

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

Hi Jim,

Quote

That's not fair!

JFK said 'Life is not fair.'

I just thought it was rather ironic that you would have the article in the same issue as a photo doing just the opposite.

You know, you do work for that organization; I would have thought you might have asked them to use a different photo.

JerryBaumchen

[PhreeZone 20]

How is a hard helmet that much harder then the back of your head? For a woman with a lot of hair I can buy that argument but for most guys I take on tandems that argument does not fly.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[NovaTTT 2]

It's not about just hardness, it's proximity. A helmet is closer to the TI's face than the back of the head. Ergo, more likely to strike.

FWIW

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

It's not about just hardness, it's proximity. A helmet is closer to the TI's face than the back of the head. Ergo, more likely to strike.

FWIW

I'm sure there's an engineering solution to the problem of passengers' heads knocking TM's teeth out.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[airtwardo 7]

glue

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

Keeps the TI from busting their jaw as well

.......................................................................

Let me see if I understand you????
If I wear a mouth guard, I don't have to worry about broken teeth, only a broken jaw, of broken nose or broken eye socket or broken ...????

[sdctlc 0]

Students sometimes ask about the reason i give them a High Fashion Frap hat. I explain that the top of their head is hard and my chin is also hard and the two colliding might initially make me unhappy but could make them even more unhappy if I am out cold

What about a variation on the Slalom ski face protector..

http://www.sunglassesetc.com/ezcart.cfm/ses_/details.cfm,list,x,400,0,H5690072103,x,x,x/Ski%20Racing/Slalom%20Wire%20Chin%20Guard/

Sure you would likely need a separate tandem helmet as the TI but it cant be any more then getting a new line of student helmets. I have a open face helmet I use pretty much for Tandems anyway and I am guessing many others do as well..

Looking at Jim C's earlier picture of the student with the head right in the face (soft or hard) makes the thought of something like this seem not that silly. Even a Frap smacking you in the face can hurt a little.....

Scott C.

edited to add a PS, my profile pic was from "contact" with the top of a head while in freefall, but not from a tandem...

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[billvon 2,990]

>If I wear a mouth guard, I don't have to worry about broken teeth, only a
>broken jaw, of broken nose or broken eye socket or broken ...????

Yep. (Of course, you have to worry about those things with or without a hard helmet.)

[Andrewwhyte 1]

Quote

Would this include a full face helmet for the TI to protect him from getting biffed in the face and incapacitated there by rendering both of them in great danger?

That's what i use.

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

Keeps the TI from busting their jaw as well

.......................................................................

Let me see if I understand you????
If I wear a mouth guard, I don't have to worry about broken teeth, only a broken jaw, of broken nose or broken eye socket or broken ...????

Where did he say that? That's some nice hyperbole you got going on there.

A head is about as hard as a hard helmet and a frap hat offers very little padding. I have even seen a guy get knocked out by another guy while they both were wearing big padded gloves.

[kallend 2,026]

Quote

Quote

Keeps the TI from busting their jaw as well

.......................................................................

Let me see if I understand you????
If I wear a mouth guard, I don't have to worry about broken teeth, only a broken jaw, of broken nose or broken eye socket or broken ...????

Since that is an issue anyway, I'd worry more that a mouthguard would prevent you from talking to the pax when under canopy or prior to exit.

I was thinking more along the lines of the facemask worn by NFL kickers - typically a single bar across the lower face. www.chicagobears.com/userfiles/image/default/KevinButler_inside013008.jpg

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[bodypilot1 0]

Maybe we can just wrap each students head, or entire body for that matter, in Bubble Wrap?
Or maybe we can stop doing tandems all together and escort them to a padded room with a video playing of what they would have been doing?

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com