April 2010 Parachutist, rigid helmets for tandem students

[Andrewwhyte 1]

John that is very good idea.

[winsor 236]

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By this time, most USPA members have received their April 2010 Parachutist magazine.

On page 67, Jim Crouch, headquarters Director of Safety and Training, suggests that it might be appropriate to start considering rigid helmets for tandem students.

He provides some good arguments for this, and I can't say that I see any downsides.

Comments?

The reasons I have been given all relate to broken noses and teeth on the part of tandem masters, whose students, before being unbuckled, jumped for joy after landing and bashed them with hard helmets.

I see no reason that a layer of non-tooth-breaking foam could not be applied to the outside of a student helmet, to provide some bump protection for the student while limiting impact to the tandem master at frap hat levels.


Blue skies,

Winsor

[riggerrob 643]

I prefer marching them out to the airplane.
With engines running, I pretend to check their harness, while tossing a burlap sack over them, rolling them around, then tossing them out on the grass.
"How did you enjoy that jump?"

[Andy9o8 2]

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I was thinking more along the lines of the facemask worn by NFL kickers - typically a single bar across the lower face. www.chicagobears.com/userfiles/image/default/KevinButler_inside013008.jpg

The student would need a helmet to protect the back of his head from the TI's faceguard.

[fcajump 164]

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By this time, most USPA members have received their April 2010 Parachutist magazine.

On page 67, Jim Crouch, headquarters Director of Safety and Training, suggests that it might be appropriate to start considering rigid helmets for tandem students.

He provides some good arguments for this, and I can't say that I see any downsides.

Comments?

From this DZ.com poll, it looks like a long way to go...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3732035

For myself, I prefer a frap on the student (me in a protec) OR a protec for the student IFF I were wearing a full face.

As to concerns to protect the student as priority #1, I agree. Therefore I (the TI) must take steps to ensure that the student can't keep me from performing my duties (stable/pull/emergency response).

Just my $.04 ($.02 on behalf of my student )
JW

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[JSE 1]

I'm not a TI but what about something similar to a boxing helmet? Provides quite a bit of protection from impact and its soft and would actually be preferable if the student's head struck yours.

[kallend 2,026]

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I was thinking more along the lines of the facemask worn by NFL kickers - typically a single bar across the lower face. www.chicagobears.com/userfiles/image/default/KevinButler_inside013008.jpg

The student would need a helmet to protect the back of his head from the TI's faceguard.

I think the title of this thread covers that.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[feuergnom 28]

when sifting through various pics and videos of tandems (youtube etc) one has to wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to start with any kind of head protection for tandem students in the first place - as there are tons of videos showing TI's and pax' jumping without any sort of head gear

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[TheCaptain 2]

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Maybe we can just wrap each students head, or entire body for that matter, in Bubble Wrap?

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Long live Zoltan

Kirk
He's dead Jim

[skymama1 0]

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when sifting through various pics and videos of tandems (youtube etc) one has to wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to start with any kind of head protection for tandem students in the first place - as there are tons of videos showing TI's and pax' jumping without any sort of head gear

Agreed.. I was pretty surprised when I went for my 1st tandem (required prior to the AFF) earlier this month and was afforded no head protection at all.. (TM/I wore a frap hat only) I have very long hair too which I french braided and the vid shows it flapping- I worry in retrospect this could have snagged on something, it was literally trailing say a foot and a half or so behind me and at one point hit the TM in the face- not very comfy at that speed I imagine lol!

I can see both sides of this- TM/I needs protection from injury to his or her head/face by the student since they are responsible for the safe pull and land- but student also needs protection in case of a hard landing or mal or other unforeseen circumstance (does anyone know of any past situations where this has been an issue one way or the other?? I suppose I could check incidents..)

But I also agree that a head itself is hard too- that said, a helmet extends the 'hard part' outwards an inch or so, bringing it closer to the TM/I's face.

It seems to me that it does make a lot of sense to either make a hybrid type helmet that both affords protection to the tandem student/passenger, and protects the TM/I's safety, or for BOTH TM/I and tandem student to be wearing helmets of some sort- is there a reason this would be less safe somehow (I don't know the technicalities here)?

I do think that if AFF students are required to wear head protection, tandem students should also have such, or at least the option of such, but of course the TM/I's safety and needs also must be considered.. this hybrid idea sounds like a good one, although having BOTH wear helmets seems it could just as easily solve the issue unless I am overlooking some technicality..

Interested to hear others' experiences and thoughts..

Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

[diablopilot 2]

I encourage people to resist the making of skydiving into a "Nerf world" simply because this is one sport where no one should play without understanding the risk.

Show me where tandems students not wearing a hard shell helmet has been a problem.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[airtwardo 7]

Show me where tandems students not wearing a hard shell helmet has been a problem.

Ever got lice in yer mustache?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skymama1 0]

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Show me where tandems students not wearing a hard shell helmet has been a problem.

I too would be interested in this. As with any new development, it may or may not be more trouble than its worth, or cause new issues, I guess we don't know but history is always a good indicator for some background.

My line of thinking just goes something along the lines of the fact that if all students are required to wear helmets, why wouldn't a student doing a tandem progression be required to wear one, just AFF? But I do also understand that landing one's own parachute is a much different situation that being landed by/with a TM/I..

And I would think at very least for people with three feet of hair like me (yes, located on my head, and no, no lice, to clear all that up ) it would be safe/smart for the comfort of the TM/I to give a frap hat or something at least- but since I am not familiar with the technicalities of that I am simply going off what I saw and experienced on my tandem and such, and will surely leave it to experienced TM/Is and the USPA to make these decisions as to what is required, recommended, or done by individuals for their ideal situation.

Tandem 4/4. FJC and AFF-2 completed 4/9. Rescheduled AFF-3 and 4 due to winds for this next weekend.

"Be the change you wish to see in the world..."

[bclark 0]

I have done tandems with and without frap hats on my students. In roughly 5000 tandems my personal experience is:

I have never been headbutted or knocked in the teeth by my student.

I have had my chin come down vertically onto the top of my students head on landing. (Didn't hurt the student, but I bit my tongue hard enough to make me bleed.)

I think an unprotected students head is nearly as hard as a hard helmet.

Under normal circumstances, I think helmets for tandem students (or anyone else for that matter) are unnecessary. However, the reason that I now wear a helmet on every jump is for the abnormal circumstances. (no one ever plans on crashing, right?)

I wonder how many of those low turn tandem passenger fatalities would have had different outcomes if the student were wearing a helmet?

That being said, I would PREFER not to have a big bulky helmet in front of my face. However I can see the potential safety benefits for the student.

But where do we draw the line? Should I make passengers in my car wear a helmet in case I crash? I agree with your statement about not making skydiving into a "Nerf World".

Hell, why don't we ALL wear helmets ALL THE TIME? Because you never know when that anvil or piano is going to fall on your head!

[Canadianfella 0]

Once upon a time I was taught my a TM I/E to put my non-pull hand on the back of the students head to protect my chin on opening... This works great. I have never been head-butted by a student...

As for landings, that's a whole other story... but it really shouldn't be an issue. Put your head off to the side... Works great for me. *also allows you to whisper sweet nothin's in their ear easier! ;)*

[douwanto 22]

What I see when TI's put helmets of any kind on their passengers is passengers hanging lower in the harness which causes its own problems. When I wear a frap and my student wears a frap communication is harder and visibility is less so i only wear them on really cold jumps.

I can only imigine the impact force of a hard opening with 2 hard helmets would be brain rattling. I put my head next to the passengers during opening which is hard to do with a hard helmet.

JM2C

Uncle/GrandPapa Whit
Unico Rodriguez # 245
Muff Brother # 2421