spectre and pilot

[Jackpunx 0]

Are there huge characteristic differences between something like a Pilot 188 and a spectre 190?
Or in the 170 range as well.
To add what are similar canopies for a first rig with a wing load of about 1.1
Thanks

[skybytch 273]

The Pilot is a nine cell. The Spectre is a seven cell. Yes, they will fly differently.

[andybr6 0]

The Pilot is a nine cell and the Spectre is a 7 cell. I jump a lightly loaded spectre [0.9/1 ish] and I really enjoy it. I think it is very good for people who, like myself, are not experienced canopy pilots and who want something that is fun to fly yet forgiving of minor mistakes. Before looking at these two canopies I would familarise yourself with the 7 cell vs 9 cell debate. I am sure there are people much more knowledgable than me who have posted about this so do a search on the forums.

If you want to compare a PD canopy to the Pilot the Sabre 2 would be a better one to start with.

------------------------------------------------

"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[Jackpunx 0]

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The Pilot is a nine cell. The Spectre is a seven cell. Yes, they will fly differently.

how much different..
I jump a spectre 210 now.. and will probably downsize to a 190 this week or the next..
Im getting ready to buy something.. I'll demo them.. but would love to be prepared for the differences..
thanks in advance

[Jackpunx 0]

I just found this..
The seven cell is more likely to open on heading, will pack slightly smaller for the same wing area, and is less vulnerable to malfunctions of a line-over type. In a partial malfunction situation, the seven cell will be less radical (have a slower descent rate and less violent behavior.)
A nine cell will have a flatter glide, giving it slightly more range. It will have a longer flare, which may make the flare easier to time but requires a longer runway.
The seven cell will be more stable at slow speeds, give more warning before stalling, and recover from a stall more predictably than a nine cell.
The nine cell may have more forward speed, an advantage in winds.

Now with this info why would someone want a 9 cell

[justinb138 0]

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I just found this..
The seven cell is more likely to open on heading, will pack slightly smaller for the same wing area, and is less vulnerable to malfunctions of a line-over type. In a partial malfunction situation, the seven cell will be less radical (have a slower descent rate and less violent behavior.)
A nine cell will have a flatter glide, giving it slightly more range. It will have a longer flare, which may make the flare easier to time but requires a longer runway.
The seven cell will be more stable at slow speeds, give more warning before stalling, and recover from a stall more predictably than a nine cell.
The nine cell may have more forward speed, an advantage in winds.

Now with this info why would someone want a 9 cell

Fly one and you'll see.

[Jackpunx 0]

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I just found this..
The seven cell is more likely to open on heading, will pack slightly smaller for the same wing area, and is less vulnerable to malfunctions of a line-over type. In a partial malfunction situation, the seven cell will be less radical (have a slower descent rate and less violent behavior.)
A nine cell will have a flatter glide, giving it slightly more range. It will have a longer flare, which may make the flare easier to time but requires a longer runway.
The seven cell will be more stable at slow speeds, give more warning before stalling, and recover from a stall more predictably than a nine cell.
The nine cell may have more forward speed, an advantage in winds.

Now with this info why would someone want a 9 cell

LMAO.. that help tons...
come on!!.. tell me
Fly one and you'll see.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Common first canopies include both 7 cell and 9 cell canopies. As a general rule, 9 cells have a higher aspect ratio than do 7 cells. Aspect ratio is defined as the span of the canopy divided by the chord length of the canopy. Span is the length of the canopy when measured from one side to the other. The chord length is the length of the canopy when measured from front to rear.

Again, as a general rule, the higher the aspect ratio of a canopy, the more efficiently the canopy will fly, the better glide ratio it will get. The lower the aspect ratio, the more stable the canopy will be.

This of course assumes all else is equal, which it rarely if ever is, which is why buying a canopy based purely on manufacturer's specifications, without demoing first, is generally not the best way to go about a canopy purchase.

Common 9 cell canopies one might purchase from me as a first canopy include Performance Designs' Sabre2, Aerodyne's Pilot, or Icarus' Safire2. These canopies all have similar, though not identical, flight characteristics

Common 7 cell canopies purchased as a first canopy include Performance Designs' Spectre, Icarus' Omega or Aerodyne's Triathlon. These canopies will fly in a similar manner, especially at lower wing loadings.

Every canopy mentioned except Aerodyne's Triathlon are tapered (in some manner) planforms, as opposed to the Triathlon's rectangular planform. The planform is the shape of the canopy as you look up at it from underneath, like when you are flying it.

All of these canopies are made from zero porosity fabric, commonly referred to as ZP or ZeroP. The other fabric, not as common for main canopies, is low porosity fabric, commonly known as F111 (one-eleven), which was the brand name of one manufacturer's version of low porosity fabric. ZP lets no air through, and newish F111 lets very little pass through the fabric. Most mains are made from ZP fabric. Almost all reserves are made entirely from F111 fabric.

chris@tso-d.com

[tbrown 26]

Now with this info why would someone want a 9 cell

[kelpdiver 2]

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Now with this info why would someone want a 9 cell

I've found them much easier to land - huge flaring power. The few landings I did on a demo pilot 210 were better than the ones I did the same weekend with the familiar tri 220. Accuracy was a different matter, but perhaps not fair to the pilot given my number of jumps with it. But the 7 cell has a steeper approach which I think makes it easier initially.

Swooping definitely favors the flatter glide of the 9 cell.

[HydroGuy 0]

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To add what are similar canopies for a first rig with a wing load of about 1.1
Thanks

Spectre, Pilot, Sabre2, Safire 2, Triatholon

Square 1 doesn't have a Triatholon or Safire 2 in the 190ish range.

Do you know about the Square1 demo program? Are you sure you want to buy a rig immediately? I was exactly where you are - canopy size, DZ, jump numbers etc - 8 months ago. If you want, PM me and I will offer you some suggestions. For instance, when you next downsize, do it during a canopy control class with Clint Clawson. I can put you in touch with him if need be.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[HydroGuy 0]

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I just found this..
The seven cell is more likely to open on heading, will pack slightly smaller for the same wing area, and is less vulnerable to malfunctions of a line-over type. In a partial malfunction situation, the seven cell will be less radical (have a slower descent rate and less violent behavior.)
A nine cell will have a flatter glide, giving it slightly more range. It will have a longer flare, which may make the flare easier to time but requires a longer runway.
The seven cell will be more stable at slow speeds, give more warning before stalling, and recover from a stall more predictably than a nine cell.
The nine cell may have more forward speed, an advantage in winds.

Now with this info why would someone want a 9 cell

[Deuce 1]

I have about a thousand jumps on Spectre's. I have one Pilot jump, and it was on the 150'ish variant. I jump Spectre 150's so the wingloading was the same.

First: Aerodyne makes a fine product.

My jump on the Pilot was due to needing a rig last minute cause both of my Spectre's were open and I needed to do a jump. I grabbed a freinds Mirage with Pilot 150'ish and jumped it.

Nice opening, like a Spectre.

I thought the toggle pull to get a turn going was just awful. In comparison, the Spectre is VERY responsive. Honestly, the Pilot was the first nine-cell sport rig I had jumped. I expected it to outperform my Spectre's but it turned out to be very, very mushy.

Now, that said, it was very forgiving. Big squishy flare, not much swoop. Again, ChopChop jumps one loaded something like 2:1, and he gets decent swoops, but I really thought is was mushy.

If you want a really nice opening, really, REALLY forgiving to toggle input and a big softish flare, get the Pilot.

At the same size and wingloading, the Spectre beats it flat on performance, though.

I am not PD sponsored.

[FrogNog 1]

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... especially when landing as I find it gave me an uncomfortable feeling of ground rush just before flaring.

That's half the fun!

A note I'm sure is also searchable in the archives: 7-cell canopies tend to fly more like reserves than 9-cells.

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[Cloudi 0]

<disclaimer> With my obvious bias (with manufacturers and canopies), my inexperience with other manufacturer's canopies, and my meager 300 jumps and 200+ jumps on a Spectre... <disclaimer>

I don't find the Spectre to be "ground hungry" at all. I thought that very same thing until I jumped other canopies. I found out that what you are told before you have a true frame of reference plays into it alot. I was told that all 7 cells have a faster descent rate, so that's what I believed until I jumped other canopies again. I have never had a problem getting back from a long spot (and I've had some bad ones), I love the openings, find it to be quite responsive, and love the landings (excellent accuracy). My personal preference runs rampant, of course!

I recently have tried a Silhouette (what a great canopy! Who knew?!) and a Sabre2 (once again after 200+ jumps). I loved landings with the Sabre2 (best) & Silhouette ( both 9 cells), found the toggle/riser input to be much easier than on my Spectre (sorry baby!), but not really noticeably more responsive. In all truthfulness, I've found the Silhouette to be the funnest to fly so far. The Spectre is a little more work to hold a turn and to fully flare than the others, but the openings spoil me.
If I were to rate each according to what a new jumper might be looking for:

Silhouette #1 (quick, soft openings, very responsive, forgiving, easy to pack [hybrid construction], nice flare for planed out landings)

Spectre #2 (slow, soft openings that are consistently on heading, fun to fly, provides soft, set-down landings)

Sabre2 #3 (slow, soft openings [if you leave them alone and let them do their thing w/o input], fun to fly w/o much work, nice, planed out landings with minimal input).

By the way: I've flown my reserve also. It did fly much like my Spectre, except that it lost altitude much quicker (F-111 type vs. ZP).

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[bob.dino 1]

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I don't especially like the steep glide of the Spectre

If you get on the rear risers a little it flattens out nicely and makes it easy to get back from long spots. Much better than most of my team-mates canopies in that regard

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[vt1977 0]

I have approx 300 jumps on a Spectre 135 and approx 6 jumps on Pilots (both the 140 and the 132).

Openings - I prefer the openings on the Pilot. They feel softer than the Spectre but they seem to take less altitude.

Toggle pressure on the pilot feels weird - I agree with what Deuce said!

Landings - very nice and very easy. Probably easier to land than the Spectre, but maybe that's just me. My Spectre was the first 7-cell I ever jumped and I took my time figuring out how to land it! That said,. I love the landings on the Spectre too.

I've not had a problem getting back from deep spots on my Spectre either - I usually use the floating back technique rather than rear risers because that tires my arms out!

All in all - they're both fantastic canopies! If I had 2 rigs, I'd probably have one of each!
Vicki

[mr2mk1g 10]

I went away earlier this year and did 80 jumps back to back on a Spectre 170 and Pilot 168 loaded to about 1.3:1. They were in identically sized Wings containers and neither canopy had more than a couple of hundred jumps on them.

The Pilot will have a significantly lighter toggle pressure than the Spectre. Both will open extremely softly and on heading. Technically there is a higher risk that the Pilot will have heading complications on opening but I have not experienced a single incidence of this in all the jumps I’ve done on Pilots.

The flare point of the Spectre is higher than the Pilot. This is not something better or worse – it just means your hands will be in a different position when you land. Remember this and fly the canopy through the flare – don’t just mechanically put your hands in the position you normally do to flare your Spectre.

The Pilot will give you a longer surf easier than the Spectre although both will surf if you know how.

The Pilot will float significantly longer than the Spectre and can be given an extremely flat glide angle in half to deep brakes. Both fly well in deep brakes although I absolutely love the slow flight characteristics of the Pilot. Both turn snappily with the toggles. I much prefer the riser turns on the Pilot and it seems to be happier in a front riser dive although neither will stay in a dive long without input. Both have pretty high riser pressure.

This is all simply my opinion based on personal experience. Note my experience level in relying upon it.

[snafuhere 0]

I just moved from Spectre-170 (250+ jumps) to Crossfire2-139. This, as they call it-high performance canopy - is just a faster Spectre. Before I have tried smaller Spectre, Pilot, Sabre2, Nitro, Stiletto.

Of all those I have found Spectre to be "the best". Why? Because of the openings, ease of packing (less lines) and the feel of stability and responsivness. My friend (jumping Pilot) was just about to order smaller Pilot but he tried mine Crossfire2 and ... you know.

Go for Spectre. This is the best all around canopy on the planet

https://www.facebook.com/1skydive/

[Remster 30]

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This, as they call it-high performance canopy - is just a faster Spectre

Wow... so a crossfire 2 is just a faster Spectre? Snafu indeed....

Remster

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I usually use the floating back technique rather than rear risers because that tires my arms out!

I've never heard this term before: floating back technique. Could you elaborate?

[tso-d_chris 0]

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The flare point of the Spectre is higher than the Pilot. This is not something better or worse – it just means your hands will be in a different position when you land. Remember this and fly the canopy through the flare – don’t just mechanically put your hands in the position you normally do to flare your Spectre.

This is a very good point. Flaring is not the time to utilize muscle memory. Your flare rate and arm position should be based on your sight picture as you look towards the horizon, and how the harness feels as it pushes up against your legs. The position of your arms is not very important, as it can change not only from canopy to canopy, but also in varying conditions.

[HydroGuy 0]

I actually think the largest difference you'll find in this sample group of canopies @ Square1 will be attributed to the individual linesets/brake settings/trim of each canopy.

I know that when I check out gear at Square1, there can be drastic differences in 2 like canopies of the same size.

For example, Square1 has an orange Pilot 168 and a blue Pilot 168. The orange canopy is trimmed much more to my liking than the blue one. The blue one has new brakes, but an older, shorter line set. Consequently, you have to really use a full arm extension to reach the bottom of the flare point. Nothing unsafe about it, just a completely different feel out of two of the same canopies.

Another example, Square1 has 2 Spectre190's (or at least they did this summer) The brand new one was awesome. The older one had super short brake settings. Full flare was high around my ribs. The brakes were so short that I was unable to mess around with my front risers with toggles in hand without deforming the rear of my canopy at the same time.

So when you're demoing/renting Square1 gear and you find a particular canopy that you like, make a mental note (or a written note if need be) of which one it is and try to get that identical canopy the next time. Maybe even ask Dave or Brenda to help you figure out exactly what it is that you liked about the canopy. Dave has taught me a lot.

Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary

[Pendragon 1]

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The flare point of the Spectre is higher than the Pilot. This is not something better or worse – it just means your hands will be in a different position when you land. Remember this and fly the canopy through the flare – don’t just mechanically put your hands in the position you normally do to flare your Spectre.

I think I agree with this. I've put ~330 jumps on my Pilot and never considered the controls nor flare "mushy" as some have. Again, having recently moved onto a Safire2 129, I did notice how much higher the flare point was on the toggle stroke of my Safire2, beyond what I would have been expecting from just a downsize. What I would say is that the flare point doesn't "bite" as much on the Pilot, and is smoother. If that is what you consider mushy, then I think it's a preference thing, and what you're used to. Neither are necessarily bad.

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The Pilot will give you a longer surf easier than the Spectre although both will surf if you know how.

Just ask Tony Hathaway! He swoops his Spectre very well.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[Jackpunx 0]

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I actually think the largest difference you'll find in this sample group of canopies @ Square1 will be attributed to the individual linesets/brake settings/trim of each canopy.

I know that when I check out gear at Square1, there can be drastic differences in 2 like canopies of the same size.

For example, Square1 has an orange Pilot 168 and a blue Pilot 168. The orange canopy is trimmed much more to my liking than the blue one. The blue one has new brakes, but an older, shorter line set. Consequently, you have to really use a full arm extension to reach the bottom of the flare point. Nothing unsafe about it, just a completely different feel out of two of the same canopies.

Another example, Square1 has 2 Spectre190's (or at least they did this summer) The brand new one was awesome. The older one had super short brake settings. Full flare was high around my ribs. The brakes were so short that I was unable to mess around with my front risers with toggles in hand without deforming the rear of my canopy at the same time.

So when you're demoing/renting Square1 gear and you find a particular canopy that you like, make a mental note (or a written note if need be) of which one it is and try to get that identical canopy the next time. Maybe even ask Dave or Brenda to help you figure out exactly what it is that you liked about the canopy. Dave has taught me a lot.

I jumped the Pilot 210 this weekend.. I agree.. the brake lines seemd pretty long and it needed a lot of toggle input. the first couple of jumps were just getting used to it.. then I started to do some front riser turns.. It was a lot of fun to fly..
but I think the lines are long..
Also.. almost every time.. it didnt open on heading..
the first time I let it fix itself.. but the rest of my jumps I corrected with the rear risers then did a C check just to make sure..
The landings are fun.. much different than the spectre..
Im going to go down to a 190 next week..
and Im going to do a canopy class..
Do you suggest that I fly both the 7 cell and the 9 cell.. then decide which I like before doing a canpopy class?
BTW.. Did I tell you that I got my A License this weekend
thanks for all the info on this thread , its been really helpfull
Mark