mjosparky 4 #26 November 22, 2005 You seem to have avoided my question. I repeat. If you know of any FAA reg. that says a certificated rigger has to have the Manufactures Instructions in hand to pack, please post them. I can find nothing in Part 65 or Part 105, the 2 parts that cover riggers and packing. It would help if you could support your position with documentation. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #27 November 22, 2005 Quote QuoteYou seem to have avoided my question. I repeat. If you know of any FAA reg. that says a certificated rigger has to have the Manufactures Instructions in hand to pack, please post them. I can find nothing in Part 65 or Part 105, the 2 parts that cover riggers and packing. It would help if you could support your position with documentation. Sparky I must have missed one! Any way digging through this stuff is always amazing! http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/examiners_inspectors/8300/volume3/media/3_110_00.pdf One place I found it was in the Inspector's Manual for Observation in a parachute loft. This is the same format that also was used for Certified lofts. All though there are no longer any Certified lofts, this procedure is still used for inspections of just lofts and manufacturers. There are several more places if one really wants to look! MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #28 November 22, 2005 QuoteOne place I found it By "it", do mean an FAR that says you must have, have open, and/or, have open to the correct page, the manual for the container and reserve when packing? I didn't see any FAR's in there with any of those requirements. The title of that document is, "Chapter 110 Inspect FAR Part 149 Parachute Loft" dated 8/13/93. Are you aware that FAR Part 149 no longer exists? If it isn't an FAR, then it isn't an FAR. Again, can you reference an FAR that supports your position? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #29 November 22, 2005 Quote Quote***One place I found it By "it", do mean an FAR that says you must have, have open, and/or, have open to the correct page, the manual for the container and reserve when packing? I didn't see any FAR's in there with any of those requirements. The title of that document is, "Chapter 110 Inspect FAR Part 149 Parachute Loft" dated 8/13/93. Are you aware that FAR Part 149 no longer exists? If it isn't an FAR, then it isn't an FAR. Again, can you reference an FAR that supports your position? Derek Derek, I guess you can not read...again! Go back and re-read thmy last post really good. 149 is no longer, but the inspection part of the handbook is still used. If you stur around in the inspector's handbook you will find it. I simply do not have the time to educate you! I never said that you have to it open and to the correct page, but the average person would. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #30 November 22, 2005 QuoteI guess you can not read...again! Go back and re-read thmy last post really good. OK, I read it again, really good, and still couldn't find an FAR that says you have to have the manual to pack a reserve. Do you have a reference to a FAR that says you have to have the manual to pack a reserve? If it isn't an FAR, the it isn't a regulation. Oh, and I agree that you should have the manual and I think it should be an FAR. But it isn't. I also think there should be an FAR that says you cannot pack under the influence of alcohol or drugs, but there isn't. You could always call the FAA and make a formal complaint against me. Again. Of course the FAA sided with me last time.. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #31 November 23, 2005 QuoteI simply do not have the time to educate you! No one is asking you to educate them. Thank you. All I asked was can you refer me to any FAR Part that supports your position. I don't think you can and I am going to leave it at that. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #32 November 23, 2005 Quote OK, I read it again, really good, and still couldn't find an FAR that says you have to have the manual to pack a reserve. I guess not as I never said "it" was a FAR! The FAR's are very sparsley written as you well know. When further definition is required, the preamble to the final rule is used. And yes, the preamble is considered law or rules. Quote Do you have a reference to a FAR that says you have to have the manual to pack a reserve? If it isn't an FAR, the it isn't a regulation. From TSO-C23d (2) The manufacturer must furnish to the user of the article one copy of the data and information specified in paragraphs c(l)(ii) and c(l)(v). This data and information is necessary for proper installation and use and for continued airworthiness of the product or article. “ Quote Oh, and I agree that you should have the manual and I think it should be an FAR. But it isn't. I also think there should be an FAR that says you cannot pack under the influence of alcohol or drugs, but there isn't. While TSO-C23d is not a FAR, it is a requirement for Approved parachutes. It clearly states that a manual be supplied to the user and that data is to be used for continued airworthiness. There are several other references within the Rules and Rulemaking if one would like to go through the trouble of finding them. Quote You could always call the FAA and make a formal complaint against me. Again. Of course the FAA sided with me last time.. Yes. I could! We could do it like last time. That was when we agreed via PM, that the fastest way to resolve the last issue, was to file a formal complaint with the FAA. When it came to fold, you changed your outlook and tried to make me look like a vilian. That issue is still to be resolved as there has not be a final ruling by your FSDO. I have not persued that issue since you changed your mind. If you change your mind again let me know! MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #33 November 23, 2005 QuoteThat was when we agreed via PM, that the fastest way to resolve the last issue, was to file a formal complaint with the FAA. I also agree that the best way to give me a black eye is to hit me int he face, but that doesn't mean I think you should. QuoteI guess not as I never said "it" was a FAR! Then we agree, it is not an FAR. It is not a regulation that you must have the manual to pack a reserve. QuoteI have not persued that issue since you changed your mind. If you change your mind again let me know! I have not changed my mind on who may alter a main canopy acording to the FAR's, in fact I have prepared another letter tot he FAA, which I will send registered mail this time. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #34 November 23, 2005 Quote Then we agree, it is not an FAR. It is not a regulation that you must have the manual to pack a reserve. Derek, It is regulation to follow all of the FAR's and associated documents. Therefore, Following the TSO requirements is regulation. You remind me of the person or persons suing McDonalds because they did not placard the Chesseburgers as to being full of fat! Remember it is easier to be a smartass than be smart. So give it a break! MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #35 November 23, 2005 QuoteIt is regulation to follow all of the FAR's and associated documents. I am not trying to be a smart ass. The fact is that because you say something is regulation does not make it so. QuoteTherefore, Following the TSO requirements is regulation. What does this have to do with pack? It starts out with CFR’s, Code of Federal Regulations. These are divided in to Titles, 1 through 50. These Titles are broken down into Volumes, Chapters and Parts. Title 14, Chapter I, subchapter D, Part 65 “CERTIFICATION: AIRMEN OTHER THAN FLIGHT CREWMEMBERS” and Title 14, Chapter I, subchapter F, Part 105 “PARACHUTE OPERATIONS” are the areas that cover rigging and skydiving. Advisory Circulars AC-105-2C and AC-65-5B are documents used to expand on and aid in interpreting the parts. I have read the above documents cover to cover and I am not able to find and reference to your position on “Manufactures Instructions” while inspecting and packing an approved parachute. What regulation mentions "associated documents"? Are you just making this shit up or can you provide a FAA Part to support it?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrigger1 2 #36 November 23, 2005 Quote I am not trying to be a smart ass. The fact is that because you say something is regulation does not make it so. Sparky, I merely pointed out in the TSO requirements that the manufacturer shall supply the user with instructions and those instructions shall be used to continue the airworthiness of that parachute. That would be at the repacking of the parachute. Quote QuoteTherefore, Following the TSO requirements is regulation. What does this have to do with pack? From 65.119 (e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute; or (f) Exercise the privileges of his certificate and type rating unless he understands the current manufacturer's instructions for the operation involved and has— The part from the TSO goes along with both above but the part where you cannot deviate from the procedures pretty much sums it up. I will list it again.... From http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgTSO.nsf/0/00493AC675EDA12E86256DA500600EF7?OpenDocument (2) The manufacturer must furnish to the user of the article one copy of the data and information specified in paragraphs c(l)(ii) and c(l)(v). This data and information is necessary for proper installation and use and for continued airworthiness of the product or article. MELSkyworks Parachute Service, LLC www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #37 November 24, 2005 You really don't get it do you? Nothing you have posted says a Rigger must have the Manufacture's instructions on hand to inspect and pack an approved parachute. You have quoted everything from the standards that the canopy is tested to, to the handbook used to administer a test to a rigger applicant. The closest you have come is a section from Part-65: (f) Exercise the privileges of his certificate and type rating unless he understands the current manufacturer's instructions for the operation involved When Derek posted the same quote you said he was wrong. Some people haven’t seen the ball since kickoff. Door, I’m gone.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #38 November 24, 2005 QuoteYou really don't get it do you? Nothing you have posted says a Rigger must have the Manufacture's instructions on hand to inspect and pack an approved parachute. You have quoted everything from the standards that the canopy is tested to, to the handbook used to administer a test to a rigger applicant. The closest you have come is a section from Part-65: (f) Exercise the privileges of his certificate and type rating unless he understands the current manufacturer's instructions for the operation involved When Derek posted the same quote you said he was wrong. Some people haven’t seen the ball since kickoff. Door, I’m gone. __________________________________________ Just have the damned instructions readily available!!! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #39 November 24, 2005 QuoteJust have the damned instructions readily available!!! Of course, but the question was about the FAR's. According to the FAR's, you just have to understand the instructions. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #40 November 24, 2005 QuoteQuoteJust have the damned instructions readily available!!! Of course, but the question was about the FAR's. According to the FAR's, you just have to understand the instructions. Derek ________________________________________ I totally agree. I went all through the FARs, also and found nothing that states anything else. I think, I was getting a little 'frustrated' by it all. An interesting 'debate', to say the least. Y'all, have a Happy Thanksgiving! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #41 November 24, 2005 I am so tired of "barracks lawyers." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #42 November 24, 2005 QuoteI am so tired of "barracks lawyers." _________________________________________ You too??? Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #43 November 24, 2005 QuoteI am so tired of "barracks lawyers." So we shouldn't discuss the FAR's? If I recall, didn't you misundertsand the Current FAR 65.111? Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #44 November 24, 2005 QuoteJust have the damned instructions readily available!!! Chuck, I do every time I inspect and pack a reserve. Its not smart not to.Happy Holidays to you and yours. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #45 November 24, 2005 QuoteI am so tired of "barracks lawyers." Maybe you should avoid reading things that upset you. There is a chance you might learn something. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #46 November 24, 2005 QuoteQuoteJust have the damned instructions readily available!!! Chuck, I do every time I inspect and pack a reserve. Its not smart not to.Happy Holidays to you and yours. Sparky ______________________________________ Yes, sir! I do too. At my age, I can't remember everything. I get a rig in, I double-check on the manufacturer's web-site for up-dates, SBs and etc. I find myself referring to the manufacturer's instructions just about every re-pack. The way it's goin', changes come on a nearly every day basis. I learn a lot from you and the other contributors on this site. It's fun, enlightening and informative. Thanks, Sparky! That means a lot to me. All the very best wishes to you and your family. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #47 November 24, 2005 QuoteAt my age, I can't remember everything. What were we talking about? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #48 November 24, 2005 QuoteQuoteAt my age, I can't remember everything. What were we talking about? Sparky __________________________________________ Damnifiknow! hee, hee. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigger_john 0 #49 November 25, 2005 Whats a manual?_________________________________________ Nullius in Verba Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #50 November 25, 2005 QuoteWhats a manual? Working without power tools. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
