question on packing reserves

[masterrig 1]

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Whats a manual?

__________________________________

I think, it's a Mexican worker????????


Chuck

[AirborneDaddy 0]

WOW, thank all of you for your advise and sharing your knowledge with me. This forum has been a good source for me and I am sure for many others as well.

I have definately gotten my question answered.

It seems that a lot of people have different interpritations of the rules and yet I do not think any of you are typing from a jail cell because you have violated the FAR. I quess using common sence is the general concensus in this thread and I would like to know where I can order some of that. haha!

thanks again for all of your help, there is a great deal of knowledge in here.

live life with your head in the clouds

[rigger_john 0]

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I quess using common sence is the general concensus in this thread and I would like to know where I can order some of that. haha!
reply]

www.common_sence.com ?

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

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[masterrigger1 2]

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You really don't get it do you? Nothing you have posted says a Rigger must have the Manufacture's instructions on hand to inspect and pack an approved parachute. You have quoted everything from the standards that the canopy is tested to, to the handbook used to administer a test to a rigger applicant.

Sparky,
I've got it but it seems that you don't!
If you can not read from the TSO that the manufacturer Shall supply a Copy of the instructions to the user for continued airworthiness, then I don't know what to do for you!

Here it is again- It is a written FAA procedure
From TSO-C23d

(2) The manufacturer must furnish to the user of the article one copy of the data and information specified in paragraphs c(l)(ii) and c(l)(v). This data and information is necessary for proper installation and use and for continued airworthiness of the product or article.
“

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The closest you have come is a section from Part-65:
(f) Exercise the privileges of his certificate and type rating unless he understands the current manufacturer's instructions for the operation involved


When Derek posted the same quote you said he was wrong. Some people haven’t seen the ball since kickoff.

Here is another place you are off track..

I never stated that there was a FAR XX.XXX .

Sometimes in the FAR's two things make a ruling.

I disagreed with Derek's statement that you only had to "understand the instructions" vs having them.

It just so happens that 65.119 states that you can not deviate from procedures prescribed by the administrator (FAA)

here it is again...

From 65.119

(e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute; or

(f) Exercise the privileges of his certificate and type rating unless he understands the current manufacturer's instructions for the operation involved and has—


as to the quote about "barracks' lawyers..

I am quite tried of it all also, but I am also tried of mis-informing young riggers.

This is a case that could poise very big problem.
Suppose a young rigger reads and believes Derek's statement and also does not have the instructions.

That same rigger later is packing a rig(that he thinks he understands the instructions to) with a 357 pilot chute and pulls the lower mess over the tophat and keeps the pilot chute from launching.

The scenios are endless.....


The FAR's are written so that 99.99 % of the population understands them.

It seems that no matter how the FAR's are written,
certain people will always try show that they are "smarter" by circumventing the rules, reading between the lines, challenging the FAR's,etc... .

Just look at all the post they make.


In this business one needs to use common sense and err on the conservative side.

Using Chuck Smith's quote,"Just have the damned instructions readily available!!! "


MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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[Hooknswoop 19]

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It seems that no matter how the FAR's are written,
certain people will always try show that they are "smarter" by circumventing the rules, reading between the lines, challenging the FAR's,etc... .

I am reading the FAR's at face value, not reading into them or twisting them. You have yet to show where the FAR's say you must have the manual to back up your posistion that you must have the manual.

I think we all agree that you should have the manual and use it, that is not in question. You think it is an FAA requirement, but cannot quote an FAR that says it is.

Derek

[masterrigger1 2]

I am reading the FAR's at face value, not reading into them or twisting them. You have yet to show where the FAR's say you must have the manual to back up your posistion that you must have the manual.

***

Derek,
It is in black and white in the above post!!!

Every one else that has emailed me figured it out.

Tunnel vision can be a very bad thing sometimes.

The reason some people can't see the ball after kickoff is they are focused on the scoreboard!!!


MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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It is in black and white in the above post!!!

No, it isn't. You have not quoted an FAR that says you have to have the manual to pack a reserve.

Derek

[masterrigger1 2]

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***
It is in black and white in the above post!!!

No, it isn't. You have not quoted an FAR that says you have to have the manual to pack a reserve.

Derek

Derek,
You have wasted enough of my time already!

You are missing one thing that Sparky, Riggerrob, Chuck, myself,and others have had in past post.

That would be admitting you are wrong or did not know something.

I can not find one instance of that in your past posts or at least the ones I reviewed.

But maybe I wrong about that....

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[Hooknswoop 19]

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That would be admitting you are wrong or did not know something.

I can not find one instance of that in your past posts or at least the ones I reviewed.

Here is a recent one:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=1926907;page=2;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

I don't know everything, but I do know that you haven't quoted an FAR that says you have to have the packing manual to pack a reserve.

Derek

[mjosparky 4]

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I am quite tried of it all also, but I am also tried of mis-informing young riggers.

Because someone does not agree with your position does not mean they are misinforming young riggers. You are not the final word on what the FAA reg. say or seem to say. Neither am I, so I would suggest young riggers read everything they can find on rigging and decide for themselves

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This is a case that could poise very big problem.
Suppose a young rigger reads and believes Derek's statement and also does not have the instructions.

That same rigger later is packing a rig(that he thinks he understands the instructions to) with a 357 pilot chute and pulls the lower mess over the tophat and keeps the pilot chute from launching.

I would say the rigger in question does not “understand the current
manufacturer's instructions for the operation involved” and would probably make the same mistake with or without the instructions. jmo

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It seems that no matter how the FAR's are written,
certain people will always try show that they are "smarter" by circumventing the rules, reading between the lines, challenging the FAR's,etc... .

"I never stated that there was a FAR XX.XXX . " Thought you said you were not talking about FAR's

I am not trying to circumvent, challenge or read between the lines. And I am also not reading into them what I want to see. While I will be one of the first to say that it is a good practice to have the Manufacture’s Instructions on hand for any packing you do, it is not required by FAA regulations with the exception of one brand of Sports rig that I am aware of. A good research project for you.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[masterrigger1 2]

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Because someone does not agree with your position does not mean they are misinforming young riggers. You are not the final word on what the FAA reg. say or seem to say. Neither am I, so I would suggest young riggers read everything they can find on rigging and decide for themselves

Sparky,

Several comments here,


As A DPRE, my position is somewhat different than yours.

I would fail an applicant if he or she did not use and have available the manufacturer's instructions.


That decision would be based on several areas.


As to the later part of the paragraph, I agree 110%!!!


I guess my working with the government for 24 plus years reading and writting procedures, I understand the intented language better than most.


There are other areas to focus on but let us look at FAR 65.119 in a different view than the TSO.

65.119

(e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute; or

(f) Exercise the privileges of his certificate and type rating unless he understands the current manufacturer's instructions for the operation involved and has—



Fact - 65.119 is a FAR that is to be followed by a certificated rigger when packing a reserve.

Fact - If The manufacturer requires the instructions to be used when packing their product ( I do not know of one that does not), Then you have to have it according to 65.119.

Fact - Not having it (if required by the manufacturer)would be a violation of 65.119


Also, if you have the time, find the preamble to the rule of 65.119. It is included in there some where.it will give you more definition to the rule. Contact your local FSDO.

For reference, the preamble is the "long version and description" of the rule.

Another fact is the that the preamble is referenced during rulemaking and is law.

The FAR's that listed are simply condensed versions or readings of the preamble to the rule.

Let's move on!

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[riggerrob 643]

Please excuse my liberal, Canadian bias here ...
but during the last CSPA Rigger A Course, I said:
"If you want to pass the packing test - at the end of this course - you will have a manual open beside you."
"Refer to the manufacturer's instructions."
"Check the manual."
"Ask the manufacturer."
"Call the manufacturer."
"E-mail the manufacturer."
"When I was Customer Service Manager at Rigging Innovations, I rarely did any sewing on Mondays because the phone rang off the hook."
"Manufacturers would rather answer a thousand silly questions than clean up after one mistake."
"If you ignore a manufacturer's instruction - on your way to the scene of an accident - you are on your own in court."
"American FARs, TSOs, etc. may not be law in Canada, but they are considered good business practice."
"blah!"
"blah!"
"blah!"

Sound like we are arguing with the choir.

[masterrigger1 2]

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Please excuse my liberal, Canadian bias here ...

You're excused!

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Sound like we are arguing with the choir.

Would that be Preaching to the choir?

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[masterrig 1]

Several years ago, when I was working on my Senior ticket, my instructor stressed to me about having the manufacturer's instructions and referring to them. He told me, they (instructions) were there for a reason and that; "You can't pack without them!" He also told me that if, I ever had to appear in court, I'd look pretty stupid if, I said I had'nt used the instructions. I'd also, more than likely, lose my 'ticket'. Now, I'm just a Master rigger and I still, refer to manufacturer's instructions. The manufacturer's and the FAA, want us to use the instructions so... I use them. What's the deal? It's not rocket science. I think, the point is moot.


Chuck

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I think, the point is moot.

Yep.

Derek

[riggingplace 0]

I agree with Mel and Chuck 100%. I do not think that even if you know a rig backwards and forwards that you should work on it without the manufactures instructions. I can't think of too many people that know racers as well as I do, but I still have the manual out when I'm working on one (even mine). To say that you work on a rig without them is nothing to be proud of. It's carless.
Chuck:
You are not just a master rigger. being a master is something to be very proud of.

Mike Gainey
Master Rigger
DPRE

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I agree with Mel and Chuck 100%. I do not think that even if you know a rig backwards and forwards that you should work on it without the manufactures instructions.

Then you agree with everyone that has posted in this thread. Everyone agrees you should have the manual.

Derek

[masterrig 1]

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I agree with Mel and Chuck 100%. I do not think that even if you know a rig backwards and forwards that you should work on it without the manufactures instructions. I can't think of too many people that know racers as well as I do, but I still have the manual out when I'm working on one (even mine). To say that you work on a rig without them is nothing to be proud of. It's carless.
Chuck:
You are not just a master rigger. being a master is something to be very proud of.

_____________________________________

Thank you. Yes, I am proud to be a Master Rigger. I worked hard for it. I probably should've left the word 'just' out of my statement.


Chuck

[mjosparky 4]

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Fact - If The manufacturer requires the instructions to be used when packing their product ( I do not know of one that does not), Then you have to have it according to 65.119.

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"it is not required by FAA regulations with the exception of one brand of Sports rig that I am aware of."

The one rig I was referring to is the Infinity. It has the “Infinity Owner’s Manual” in the “Parts Required” list page 18 of the Manual. Packing this rig without the “Infinity Owner’s Manual” would be a violation of the following.

§ 65.129 Performance standards.

No certificated parachute rigger may—

e) Pack, maintain, or alter a parachute in any manner that deviates from procedures approved by the Administrator or the manufacturer of the parachute; or

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

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[mjosparky 4]

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You are not just a master rigger. being a master is something to be very proud of.

Chuck,

I agree 100% with this statement. The amount of time and effort you have spent acquiring the knowledge and skill to become a Master Rigger would be mind boggling to the average jumper. It is an accomplishment to be proud of.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[riggermick 7]

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Please excuse my liberal, Canadian bias here ...

You're excused!


Sound like we are arguing with the choir.

Would that be Preaching to the choir?

MEL

In Canada The're all godless heathons, so they don't "preach" to one another they "argue". Fricken Communists!!

[masterrig 1]

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Please excuse my liberal, Canadian bias here ...

You're excused!


Sound like we are arguing with the choir.

Would that be Preaching to the choir?

MEL

In Canada The're all godless heathons, so they don't "preach" to one another they "argue". Fricken Communists!!

____________________________________

They produce good beer!!!


Chuck

[riggermick 7]

Touche sir.

Mick.

[masterrig 1]

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Touche sir.

Mick.

__________________________________

Back in my drinking days, I really liked Labatt's.


Chuck

[riggerrob 643]

As A DPRE, my position is somewhat different than yours.

I would fail an applicant if he or she did not use and have available the manufacturer's instructions.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Similarly, a Canadian will fail a packing test if he does not have the manual open beside him.

Ergo:
if not opening a manual = failing a packing test,

then not opening a manual during an after-course repack = "failing" the after-course pack job.

Can you see my logic?