Andy9o8 2
Videoing an incident - Was: Double fatality - Tandem - Jonesville, NC - 13 Sept 2008
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Skydivesg, in The Bonfire
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Braz933 0
QuoteQuoteFurthermore, I don't care if the investigation shuts down your DZ. DO YOU HAVE ANY INTEGRITY? ALL THAT MATTERS IS THAT THE TRUTH IS TOLD, NO MATTER WHO IT HURTS!!!!
I have personally heard a cop tell a DZO:
"If you don't hand over the video tape I will shut this place down."
You tell me...who's the asshole? Who has integrity? Who's trampling on "rights"? Who's abusing their power? Who's contributing to that negative perception you complain about?
Why could he have not said, "If you don't hand over the video I will have to obtain a warrant to get it."
"ALL THAT MATTERS IS THAT THE TRUTH IS TOLD"
You've never been to court have you? In spite of all the chest-thumping and rhetoric to the contrary, truth is not an issue in our court system.
As far as the threat to shut down the DZ, what do you think the cops are going to do? Are they supposed to just say..ok, we'll get a warrant and come back later. That is not how it works. The police have the right and obligation to make sure evidence is not destroyed. So the cop would probably have shut things down for about an hour, just long enough to obtain an emergency warrant, and get the tape. That is probably what he meant, and that would indicate he is doing his job correctly. It is not an abuse of power, he is not trampling your rights, he is doing his job. So in the end, it would be the lack of cooperation that caused the DZ to be shut down temporarily, not the cops fault.
As far as court is concerned, I am in court regularly, and yes it does leave something to be desired..but that had more to do with liberal judges than truth and lies.
Braz,
I'm not bustin' your balls really. I'm railing against the way things are nowadys with the Us vs Them attitude with respect to citizens and police.
Believe me, I completely understand how some of those negative feelings develop in the police community.
Add me to those who wonder how you guys maintain even some resemblence to sanity given the scumbag side of the world that you have to deal with regularly.
Yes! They damn sure better do that! The situation I described was beyond that, though. It was a matter of, "you better do what I tell you or I'll bust your balls (because I'm a cop and right, wrong or indifferent, I have to the power to do that to you and get away with it)".
Which goes a long way towards explaining why the citizenry in general have such a dim view of police.
Well that's another ball game. I refer to the rules governing how that evidence is presented, or not, in court and how that presentation seems to be "my spin is better than your spin" in a three-way game between defenders, prosecutors and judges AND how police are seen to be inviolate by judges...nevermind the many, many cases of police lying in court and planting evidence, for example.
I mentioned the Thin Blue line...you being in a position to hire and fire is not what I meant. Do you condone the actions of those "cops" who bend the rules, outright lie to protect each other, are on the take, brag about how they mistreated someone, etc, etc, etc? I don't think you do. I ask what have you done to weed out those bozos. THEY are the ones propogating the US vs Them attitude between you and the general population.
Admittedly, WE could do a better job at weeding out the citizen bozos out here that cause you guys trouble by helping you guys find them.
Now back to the topic at hand...
IMHO, DSE has a good point in that cooperation is usually a good thing. BUT, I still have a problem with anyone having a problem with anyone excercizing their rights as a citizen of this country.
There's proper ways to do things within the boundaries of civil rights and it is dangerous to accept the attitude that we should blindly abandon any of them.
In the case of making a copy of video evidence, go ahead you may have the right to do so. BUT, understand that, within the rules of the law, there may be consequences should you violate them.
I'm not bustin' your balls really. I'm railing against the way things are nowadys with the Us vs Them attitude with respect to citizens and police.
Believe me, I completely understand how some of those negative feelings develop in the police community.
Add me to those who wonder how you guys maintain even some resemblence to sanity given the scumbag side of the world that you have to deal with regularly.
QuoteThe police have the right and obligation to make sure evidence is not destroyed.
Yes! They damn sure better do that! The situation I described was beyond that, though. It was a matter of, "you better do what I tell you or I'll bust your balls (because I'm a cop and right, wrong or indifferent, I have to the power to do that to you and get away with it)".
Which goes a long way towards explaining why the citizenry in general have such a dim view of police.
QuoteAs far as court is concerned, I am in court regularly, and yes it does leave something to be desired..but that had more to do with liberal judges than truth and lies.
Well that's another ball game. I refer to the rules governing how that evidence is presented, or not, in court and how that presentation seems to be "my spin is better than your spin" in a three-way game between defenders, prosecutors and judges AND how police are seen to be inviolate by judges...nevermind the many, many cases of police lying in court and planting evidence, for example.
I mentioned the Thin Blue line...you being in a position to hire and fire is not what I meant. Do you condone the actions of those "cops" who bend the rules, outright lie to protect each other, are on the take, brag about how they mistreated someone, etc, etc, etc? I don't think you do. I ask what have you done to weed out those bozos. THEY are the ones propogating the US vs Them attitude between you and the general population.
Admittedly, WE could do a better job at weeding out the citizen bozos out here that cause you guys trouble by helping you guys find them.
Now back to the topic at hand...
IMHO, DSE has a good point in that cooperation is usually a good thing. BUT, I still have a problem with anyone having a problem with anyone excercizing their rights as a citizen of this country.
There's proper ways to do things within the boundaries of civil rights and it is dangerous to accept the attitude that we should blindly abandon any of them.
In the case of making a copy of video evidence, go ahead you may have the right to do so. BUT, understand that, within the rules of the law, there may be consequences should you violate them.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
QuoteI'm not a doctor, nor did I even go to medical school. Still, I think I'm a bright guy, and I read DZ.com. If anyone would like an authoritative-sounding opinion from me on medical diagnostic analysis and how to perform surgery, I'll be happy to let 'er rip.
Gee, I hope I'm not being too subtle.
Well...for me? No, your opinion is NOT valid. You didn't stay in a Holiday Inn.
Beside that, we're stating opinons. Direct knowledge and expertise is not required.
This is a legal issue so I guess we should leave the discussion to lawyers and judges, eh?
Oh hell, NOW we're in trouble!
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Consider becoming a bonafide freelance member of the PRESS, in other words, every jump is a news gathering operation.
Now, set out to investigate the difference ... nuff said
Now, set out to investigate the difference ... nuff said
Y yo, pa' vivir con miedo, prefiero morir sonriendo, con el recuerdo vivo".
- Ruben Blades, "Adan Garcia"
- Ruben Blades, "Adan Garcia"
BMFin 0
QuoteI'm not a doctor, nor did I even go to medical school. Still, I think I'm a bright guy, and I read DZ.com. If anyone would like an authoritative-sounding opinion from me on medical diagnostic analysis and how to perform surgery, I'll be happy to let 'er rip.
Amen !!
Braz933 0
QuoteDo you condone the actions of those "cops" who bend the rules, outright lie to protect each other, are on the take, brag about how they mistreated someone, etc, etc, etc?
Absolutely not.
QuoteWith the shit cops have to put up with, i dont know why anyone would want to do it.
Unfortunately, I think *some* of them are after the fringe benefits.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
QuoteQuoteWith the shit cops have to put up with, i dont know why anyone would want to do it.
Unfortunately, I think *some* of them are after the fringe benefits.
It'll be a relief to see this thread go to Speaker's Corner. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb
Braz933 0
While absolutely disgusting, and indefensible, it is important to remember that this type of thing goes on in many professions. The report does keep that perspective by saying:
"While the problem of police sexual abuse of teenage girls is serious, there is not sufficient
evidence to indicate that it is more so than with other professions. In recent years there have been
numerous reports of abuse of both adult and underage women by teachers, including athletic
coaches, clergy, medical doctors, and others."
Again, this type of thing is deplorable regardless of what credentials the perp happens to have.
"While the problem of police sexual abuse of teenage girls is serious, there is not sufficient
evidence to indicate that it is more so than with other professions. In recent years there have been
numerous reports of abuse of both adult and underage women by teachers, including athletic
coaches, clergy, medical doctors, and others."
Again, this type of thing is deplorable regardless of what credentials the perp happens to have.
jcd11235 0
QuoteActually, by legal definition, it does.
Have a link to that legal definition?
If such were the case, why do the RIAA get so upset over file sharing? The medium on which the files are stored are not changing hands.
Most videographers work as independent contractors. The work product is the finished video. OTOH, if the waiver/contract has a clause stating that the DZ owns the footage, you would have a point. It still wouldn't cover the physical media (similar to how purchasing a commercial CD or DVD purchases the physical media, but only offers a limited license to the content), but would limit what the videographer could do with that footage. But you didn't say footage, you said work product.
Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
DSE 5
Read US Copyright code. Any mechanical device which contains media is considered "work product."
You want to debate it, research it. It's easy. It's well-known within the video/film/music industry. Masters and work product are both owned by contracted party and/or publisher. That includes memory sticks, HDD, tape, or any other mechanical device which contains in whole or part, content.
Great recent example is the History Channel piece. Lots of media shot, very little of it used, yet ask Scotty Burns what happens if he didn't turn over masters, or released portions of his copies of the masters, aka "work product."
Maybe start by researching the definition of "The Work."
Conversely, spend a day or two working in the production industry and look at a contract or two.
You want to debate it, research it. It's easy. It's well-known within the video/film/music industry. Masters and work product are both owned by contracted party and/or publisher. That includes memory sticks, HDD, tape, or any other mechanical device which contains in whole or part, content.
Great recent example is the History Channel piece. Lots of media shot, very little of it used, yet ask Scotty Burns what happens if he didn't turn over masters, or released portions of his copies of the masters, aka "work product."
Maybe start by researching the definition of "The Work."
Conversely, spend a day or two working in the production industry and look at a contract or two.
QuoteQuoteQuoteWith the shit cops have to put up with, i dont know why anyone would want to do it.
Unfortunately, I think *some* of them are after the fringe benefits.
It'll be a relief to see this thread go to Speaker's Corner. Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
I can't believe that STILL hasn't happened.
Blues,
Dave
"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)
(drink Mountain Dew)
QuoteQuoteActually, by legal definition, it does.
Have a link to that legal definition?
If such were the case, why do the RIAA get so upset over file sharing? The medium on which the files are stored are not changing hands.
Most videographers work as independent contractors. The work product is the finished video.
"Work product" in this context:
http://www.ipfrontline.com/printtemplate.asp?id=1473
(In another context, "work product" has a different meaning: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work-product_doctrine)
What makes this all extremely confusing is that the idea of "work product" being property of the dzo--pursuant to a contract--has nothing at all to do with a videographer turning over a fatality video to law enforcement, except to the extent that if such a contract exists between the dzo and the videographer, it is properly the dzo's decision to turn over (or not) the video to law enforcement, not the decision of the videographer.
But that still brings us back to the original argument, which is not the argument about who owns the video but the argument about whether one is obligated to turn over the video because law enforcement has asked for it.
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb
jcd11235 0
QuoteRead US Copyright code. Any mechanical device which contains media is considered "work product."
Well, I have to step up and admit that work product does not refer to what I thought it referred to. Having said that, it doesn't mean what you claim it means either.
From Black's Law Dictionary:
work product. Tangible material or its intangible equivalent –in unwritten or oral form – that was prepared by or for a lawyer or prepared for litigation, either planned or in progress. • Work product is generally exempt from discovery or other compelled disclosure. The term is also used the products of a parties investigation or communications concerning the subject matter of a lawsuit if made (1) to assist in the prosecution or defense of a pending suit, or (2) in reasonable anticipation of litigation. – Also termed attorney work product.
Apparently work product doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. Perhaps you are confusing work product with work for hire.
Again, from Black's Law Dictionary:
work for hire. Copyright. A copyrightable work produced either by an employee within the scope of employment or by an independent contractor under a written agreement; esp., a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as (1) a contribution to a collective work, (2) a translation, (3) a supplementary work, (4) a part of a movie or audiovisual work, (5) a compilation, (6) an instructional text, (7) a test, (8) answer material for a test, or (9) an atlas. • If the work is produced by an independent contractor, the parties must agree expressly in writing that the work will be a work for hire. The employer or commissioning party owns the copyright. – Also termed work made for hire.
Statutory Definition
Section 101 of the copyright law defines work for hire as:
(1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or
(2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as a contribution to a collective work, as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work, as a translation, as a supplementary work, as a compilation, as an instructional text, as a test, as answer material for a test, or as an atlas, if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire. For the purpose of the foregoing sentence, a “supplementary work” is a work prepared for a publication as a secondary adjunct to a work by another author for the purpose of introducing, concluding, illustrating, explaining, revising, commenting upon, or assisting in the use of the other work, such as forewords, afterwords, pictorial illustrations, maps, charts, tables, editorial notes, musical arrangements, answer material for tests, bibliographies, appendixes, and indexes; and an “instructional text” is a literary, pictorial, or graphic work prepared for publication and with the purpose of use in systematic instructional activities.
QuoteYou want to debate it, research it. It's easy.
Oh, the irony.
One would expect this search to yield something that supports your assertion, and yet, nothing.
QuoteIt's well-known within the video/film/music industry.
Surely you're not suggesting that the entire industry is as misinformed as yourself, are you?
QuoteMasters and work product are both owned by contracted party and/or publisher. That includes memory sticks, HDD, tape, or any other mechanical device which contains in whole or part, content.
Great recent example is the History Channel piece. Lots of media shot, very little of it used, yet ask Scotty Burns what happens if he didn't turn over masters, or released portions of his copies of the masters, aka "work product."
Somehow, I suspect that his contract explicitly stated in the contract that it was work for hire and that all related footage and media belonged to the commissioner of that work for hire. Furthermore, I doubt the term work product was used, unless it was explicitly defined in the contract or referred to work performed by or for an attorney.
That example is significantly different from a typical videographer working as an independent contractor on a typical DZ, which is the topic at hand, not how the History Channel deals with the issue. The fact remains, unless explicitly stated in a written contract, a videographer working as an independent contractor retains ownership of his/her media and its contents.
Feel free to keep throwing out red herrings, though.
You've at least done that well for this thread.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!
DSE 5
you claimed that the media is separate from the work product. I claim it is not.
If you feel that's a red herring, so be it. Yep, everyone in the industry I've worked in for the past 30 years is a moron by your definition.
Tape/HDD/Flashcards, whatever are all meaningless without content on them. The content is what gives them value. The content cannot be captured without the mechanical device on which it is recorded.
In my industry, the one in which I've spend my entire adult life, "work product" is defined as all parts of any Master.
See....not everything is spelled out in Wikipedia or for outsiders in our industry. Just like every other industry, there are some topics that are simply accepted for what they are and how they've always been.
You won't find anything that says that Nagra is no longer the standard for field audio any longer, either. Nor will you find a defined answer for the difference between a work print or a daily, most likely. Yet within the industry, all us morons do know what those terms mean, too.
If you feel that's a red herring, so be it. Yep, everyone in the industry I've worked in for the past 30 years is a moron by your definition.
Tape/HDD/Flashcards, whatever are all meaningless without content on them. The content is what gives them value. The content cannot be captured without the mechanical device on which it is recorded.
In my industry, the one in which I've spend my entire adult life, "work product" is defined as all parts of any Master.
See....not everything is spelled out in Wikipedia or for outsiders in our industry. Just like every other industry, there are some topics that are simply accepted for what they are and how they've always been.
You won't find anything that says that Nagra is no longer the standard for field audio any longer, either. Nor will you find a defined answer for the difference between a work print or a daily, most likely. Yet within the industry, all us morons do know what those terms mean, too.
bigway 4
If the police are on the scene of a death for an investigation, surely they do not need a warrant to carry out the investigation on the crime scene? Would that not make everything on the crime scene 'evidence', even it turns out at the end of their investigation that it in fact is not a 'crime scene' but just the 'scene of an accident'?
On top of that, Do police not have the right to search and confiscate with 'reasonable cause'? Like they dont need to get a warrant to enter a premises if they see a guy shot in the head behind the counter?
Sure, I can understand that if their was a death on a dz and then a day or two later they came to your home and asked for the camera that they may need a warrant then if you practise your rights.
My questions come from having a family full of cops, One in particular who is a Inspector detective senior sargent who i use to go and watch in court during his days as a police prosecutor in New Zealand.
Actually on that note, MY some of you guys may have read about my uncle, A chinese man killed his wife in new zealand, left his daughter at a train station/airport in Australia and fled to America where my uncle started his international manhunt until some guys in china town captured the killer. Pretty sure it was a big deal in L.A. for a while.
Footnote: I like to have rights and i stand up for them but in this situation it sounds like the best thing would be to give it to the coppers with no hassles or maybe give it to the USPA's FAA member (thinking you have someone like that in place?) so they can make sure it is done the correct way that is looking out for the interest of the sport of skydiving. Also, if you did hand it over yourself, they would have to return it once the investigation is over? Correct me if that is wrong. Surely if you gave it to the USPA to deal with it they would make sure that a copy was kept for official USPA/FAA records?
Spence- I'm sorry for the bad taste that has been left in your mouth from Dublin, I can picture it as cops can abuse their power very easily-without even realising they are abusing it. though it sounds like your guys were abusing their power and knowing they were.
Disclaimer: I am not trying to argue with anyone. Please do not attack me if am wrong as I am a skydiver who is just trying to join in a BONFIRE discussion on dropzone.com with a friendly smile and nothing more.
.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.
Quoteyou claimed that the media is separate from the work product. I claim it is not.
If you feel that's a red herring, so be it. Yep, everyone in the industry I've worked in for the past 30 years is a moron by your definition.
The only person in this thread who has done any namecalling is you. The poster to whom you've responded called no one a moron. He didn't even imply it.
QuoteTape/HDD/Flashcards, whatever are all meaningless without content on them. The content is what gives them value. The content cannot be captured without the mechanical device on which it is recorded.
In my industry, the one in which I've spend my entire adult life, "work product" is defined as all parts of any Master.
What you call it and what the law says seem to be different.
If you get before a judge, you can be sure that the law will trump.
I was once in the very awkward situation of having to write an affidavit about something a deceased client had said to me in a conversation. She felt overwhelmed by the responsibility of her very large estate, and she used the word "incompetent" at one point to describe that feeling.
To the layman the word "incompetent" has the flavor of "not able to get the job done," but to a judge, it has a precise meaning:
http://dictionary.law.com/default2.Asp?selected=925&bold=||||
The lawyer who read the original affidavit draft went totally berserk when he read the word in the affidavit, and in the end, that entire portion was elided. The lawyer deemed it too much of a risk that "incompetent" in that context would guarantee that a judgment would not be in our favor. It was the word she used, but it was not what she meant in the way that it would be (and was) taken by a legal professional.
All I'm saying is that for your sake, I hope you never have to take your understanding of how things are into a courtroom, because I do not think it will go well for you if you do.
QuoteSee....not everything is spelled out in Wikipedia or for outsiders in our industry. Just like every other industry, there are some topics that are simply accepted for what they are and how they've always been.
Your purported customs are not the law.
QuoteYou won't find anything that says that Nagra is no longer the standard for field audio any longer, either. Nor will you find a defined answer for the difference between a work print or a daily, most likely. Yet within the industry, all us morons do know what those terms mean, too.
Totally unrelated to the the discussion at hand.
If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb
Gee, I hope I'm not being too subtle.
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