popsjumper 2 #101 September 23, 2008 Quote ...I am a skydiver who is just trying to join in a BONFIRE discussion on dropzone.com with a friendly smile and nothing more. We understand that you are a skydiver but please, for heaven's sake, tell us that you at least have your pants on. My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #102 September 23, 2008 Well, what have I learned so far... 1. By contract, anybody can own the footage, media whatever. 2. You can voluntarily give it up or you can insist on a warrant. 3. Cops are sometimes shady characters. 4. DSE knows what he is talking about. 5. Bigway posts in the nude. Anything else?My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 801 #103 September 23, 2008 RL, please don't take this the wrong way...but. I think part of the challenge here it people in the sport for years that have dealt with these situations as well as those accustomed to having been legally required to submit evidence in an investigation have a hard time accepting the legal knowledge of someone with an A license and very little knowledge of what you do that would allow us to understand the knowledge you feel that you have in an incident like this. A legal assistant is a rather broad stroke at at your profession - kinda like saying I work in computers. I think a few of us need to ease up...it's only a discussion. Yes, people have and will make copies of videos and/or remove video evidence before the cops show up. If the cops see that there is video evidence they will want it. Insisting on your rights in the face of a cop will not usually work. Cops are process servers, courts settle legal issues. If you're willing to spend the cash required to properly support yourself legally in a court of law, feel free to argue with investigators as that is where you will end up. Pretty much what you said.I hope I didn't offend you with my comments. That has not been my attempt by any means. I'm just trying to let you see another side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #104 September 23, 2008 Quoteyou claimed that the media is separate from the work product. I claim it is not. If you feel that's a red herring, so be it. And I demonstrated that you were, in fact, incorrect. In the legal context in which you tried to use it, work product doesn't mean what you claim it means. With the criteria you gave in the scenario you proposed, the videographer that you said you would fire and give an ass kicking, to paraphrase, owes the DZ nothing for their money except a finished video. QuoteIf you feel that's a red herring, so be it. The red herring which I pointed out in my post was your reference to how the History Channel deals with their employees/contractors' footage and storage media. That's completely irrelevant. QuoteYep, everyone in the industry I've worked in for the past 30 years is a moron by your definition. Actually I just suggested that you were misinformed. If you think everyone you've worked with for the past 30 years is a moron, that is your opinion, not mine. I don't know them or their work, so I don't have an opinion. Nor did I call anyone a moron. QuoteTape/HDD/Flashcards, whatever are all meaningless without content on them. Not true for working videographers. Often, the content holds meaning to them just long enough to dub the video, after which the space is considered to be more valuable. QuoteThe content is what gives them value. The content can be valuable, but most working videographers I've known have little use for thousands of AFF/tandem/coach videos. If they do keep the footage, there are better storage mediums available. QuoteIn my industry, the one in which I've spend my entire adult life, "work product" is defined as all parts of any Master. But that's not how it's defined in copyright law, as you claimed it was so condescendingly. QuoteSee....not everything is spelled out in Wikipedia or for outsiders in our industry. And Wikipedia is relevant how? QuoteJust like every other industry, there are some topics that are simply accepted for what they are and how they've always been. Right. For example, it is generally understood in skydiving that a videographer's work is his own, under typical circumstances. Maybe after you get some more time in sport you'll better understand that. The overwhelming majority of the time, the footage independently contracted videographers capture is worth nothing to anyone except the end customer, their friends, and their family. DZ's don't usually want to have to catalog and store the video any more than videographers do. It's not network television, and it's not Hollywood. Most DZO's know that if they need a copy of the footage, there are better and easier ways to go about getting it than assault and theft.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigway 4 #105 September 23, 2008 For those of you who dont want to give the tapes to the cops because you are looking out for the sport..... Well fucking done. I am sure this bullshit is really looking out for the sport, a bunch of skydivers in a pissing match over one of our brothers misfortune. http://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Tandem+-+Jonesville,+NC+-+13+Sept+2008 .Karnage Krew Gear Store . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #106 September 23, 2008 Quote RL, please don't take this the wrong way...but. I think part of the challenge here it people in the sport for years that have dealt with these situations as well as those accustomed to having been legally required to submit evidence in an investigation have a hard time accepting the legal knowledge of someone with an A license and very little knowledge of what you do that would allow us to understand the knowledge you feel that you have in an incident like this. A legal assistant is a rather broad stroke at at your profession - kinda like saying I work in computers. I started jumping in 1995 and I stopped in 2001. That's six active years in parachuting, including a base jump or five, and for the last seven years, I've maintained my USPA membership in good standing and tried to keep up with what's going on in the event I ever decide to jump again. That's not likely--the fact that the medical profession is unable to keep my thyroid condition consistently stable (even with quarterly testing) makes me a danger to myself and others in the air--but you never know. My legal knowledge is separate from my skydiving knowledge, and the issue at hand is not specific to skydiving, even though the discussion of it occurs in that context. I have worked for lawyers in New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Delaware and Florida who concentrated in the following areas: intellectual property, First Amendment law, criminal law, trusts and estates, family law, real property law, immigration law, contract law.......bankruptcy law, personal injury law, and a little bit more besides. But this isn't about me and my knowledge or I'd never have suggested googling Professor Duane. I'm not giving legal advice, I'm trying to hammer home the idea that the original legal advice given in this thread by a non-lawyer was WRONG. Period. Okay, not period. I'm also trying to make the parallel point that people who willingly give up their rights will lose them. Quote I think a few of us need to ease up...it's only a discussion. Who would you ask to ease up? Those who have tried to make their points without namecalling, ridicule and personal attacks? That would be most of us. Quote Yes, people have and will make copies of videos and/or remove video evidence before the cops show up. If the cops see that there is video evidence they will want it. Insisting on your rights in the face of a cop will not usually work. Ah, but if you insist on your rights and your rights are violated, it's a far different scenario than if you simply cede your rights. It does matter. As for the claim that there are those who remove video evidence...I've never known anyone who has done that, and while I'm certainly an advocate of availing oneself of ones rights, I'm not an advocate of attempting to circumvent the law by destroying evidence. Quote Cops are process servers, The police are charged with gathering evidence. They have procedures to follow in that regard. There are protections in place for civilians when law enforcement does not follow the law. I find it hard to understand that availing oneself of the protections afforded one under the law is worthy of criticism. Quote courts settle legal issues. If you're willing to spend the cash required to properly support yourself legally in a court of law, feel free to argue with investigators as that is where you will end up. Pretty much what you said.I hope I didn't offend you with my comments. That has not been my attempt by any means. I'm just trying to let you see another side. Well, the other side I see is that if I hadn't told my daughter to go ahead and talk to the police, nearly $15k would've been saved in legal fees and bond costs, another $10k (or possibly more) might've been recovered in restitution, and my daughter would not have a criminal record that I'm going to have to pay to have expunged a few years from now. The point is...there's always time to give the police the video, but once you've handed it over, you can't take it back. The time it would take to get some legal advice would not hinder the investigation in any substantive way and might save some heartache down the road. My experience is that a small sum invested in a lawyer at the start of a problem will avoid a far larger sum invested later on when a lawyer is required to untangle the mess created by individuals who thought they understood the law well enough to take care of things themselves. If no one wants to hear that, so much so that it's worth obfuscating the issue with irrelevancy......oh well.If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
carbonezone 0 #107 September 23, 2008 Quote not responding to anyone in particular I ‘m sorry, I never usually get sucked into this but REALLY “Get off your high fucking “high”- horse’s people, evidence is evidence”. I don’t see this any different than a video taken at any other incident / accident scene. If it’s available utilize it. What if…a video was being filmed at a parade and an incident / accident occurred (maybe a spooked horse trampled a baby carriage) and video guy wouldn’t give up film, could you imagine the annoyance of authorities and the simple fact of trying to understand and learn from what ever happened??? Just because we choose to PLAY ABOVE EVERYBODY ELSE….DOES NOT MEAN WE ARE ABOVE EVERYONE ELSE . ARROGANCE SUCKS <> Tami Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Braz933 0 #108 September 23, 2008 Quote evidence is evidence”. I don’t see this any different than a video taken at any other incident / accident scene. If it’s available utilize it. What if…a video was being filmed at a parade and an incident / accident occurred (maybe a spooked horse trampled a baby carriage) and video guy wouldn’t give up film, could you imagine the annoyance of authorities and the simple fact of trying to understand and learn from what ever happened??? I could not agree with you more. Thanks for speaking up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 801 #109 September 23, 2008 At the very least I appreciate that it would appear you have had plenty of legal experience. Defending one's rights to property I'm all for. Keeping evidence from authorities because "IT'S MINE!" is simply childish and foolish in my mind. I would be one of the LAST people to interact with the cops if I could avoid it at all costs, I will not talk to them or cooperate with them without any legal requirements to do so - and this attitude costs me HOURS at Gestapo checkpoints. But withholding video evidence of an accident, which is what this is all about is an entirely different matter. I fully agree with you on wondering why the hell this isn't in speaker's corner yet though!thanks RL, you didn't really owe me your response, but I DO appreciate it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #110 September 23, 2008 Quote At the very least I appreciate that it would appear you have had plenty of legal experience. But that really has nothing to do with anything. Quote Defending one's rights to property I'm all for. Keeping evidence from authorities because "IT'S MINE!" is simply childish and foolish in my mind. I don't think there's a person in this thread who has advocated keeping evidence because "IT'S [THEIRS]!" Quote I would be one of the LAST people to interact with the cops if I could avoid it at all costs, I will not talk to them or cooperate with them without any legal requirements to do so - and this attitude costs me HOURS at Gestapo checkpoints. But withholding video evidence of an accident, which is what this is all about is an entirely different matter. Keeping a copy? Getting legal advice before turning over the original (or a copy)? For example, what if you had an entire day's worth of video, and the incident occurred on the last load of the day? Consider the (relatively innocuous) stuff that goes on at the dz during the day, and then consider that it might not seem so innocuous to the police officer who decides to view the entire original video you've turned over. That's just one very vague example that requires you to fill in some of the blanks. But not to put too fine a point on it, what if the incident occurred at the end of a boogie weekend, and not only do you have a bunch of jumps, you've also got some footage from the bonfire on Saturday night? Quote I fully agree with you on wondering why the hell this isn't in speaker's corner yet though!thanks RL, you didn't really owe me your response, but I DO appreciate it. Apparently I'm on a roll. With a little luck, this thread will die an ignomious death soon enough.If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 801 #111 September 23, 2008 Well it certainly has plenty of ignominious content to be sure. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RhondaLea 4 #112 September 23, 2008 Quote Well it certainly has plenty of ignominious content to be sure. It also has some very, very, very bad typos. Sheesh. I would sneak in there and fix that one, but there's too little humor in this thread for me to go fucking with something that really is funny. And on that note, I will now go rest my scrambled brain.If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
