ideal canopy size

[dimbohall 0]

Hi guys,

Just a quick question. I have 25 jumps and want to buy some gear. I am looking at buying a 150.

Is this unreasonable given that I have flown a minimum of 150 hours every year for the last 10 years with a paraglider. I know there are differences, but the dynamics are very similar. My last jump was with a 190 - it flew like a rubbish paraglider.....

What do you say??

[sundevil777 102]

How much do you weigh?

Your case is unusual. Even so, it is natural for us to be cautious. Perhaps you are less likely to be forced into a low turn to avoid traffic while paragliding (skydivers I would guess have busier landing areas). I would also guess that the consequences of a low turn under a paraglider are more severe, so your instincts are likely to be on the safe side.

Maybe all skydiving parachutes fly like rubbish compared to paragliders, given their relative aspect ratios and such.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mjosparky 4]

How are you? Fill is some of your profile and give people something to work with.

Saprky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[bodypilot1 0]

And the generic answer is????????????



Be safe
Ed

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[Martini 0]

Since paragliders are sized according to wingloading as are skydiving canopies you can't expect a useful response without more info. Kinda seems like a troll since you must already know that.

Sometimes you eat the bear..............

[AggieDave 6]

Huh. A friend of mine with a few thousand hours of turbine flying time once said "I'll be fine, a wing is a wing..." That was about a month before he hooked in and *nearly* died. It took him over a year to recover to the point of functioning normally in society.

So nope, unless you've got previous skydiving canopy flying experience somehow, it does not releate. No matter how good you *think* you are, the ground doesn't care. It'll hurt you just the same.

--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline."

[Pendragon 1]

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So nope, unless you've got previous skydiving canopy flying experience somehow, it does not releate.

Have you ever been hang or paragliding? Paraglider experience is definitely helpful as you already understand how a canopy flies (albeit a different kind), how to flare and have a good understanding of a landing pattern - also in fields that you didn't scope out before launch (if going XC).

Powered fixed-wing flying is, however, quite different - whilst some pilots make good landings under canopies almost from the beginning, others do not. I have experienced both.

However, being a good paraglider pilot doesn't mean you can start swooping a high-performance canopy just yet...

Richard

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[riggermick 7]

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How much do you weigh?


Even if he weighs 100 lbs soaking wet, a 150 is still no place for someone with 25 jumps.

Mick.

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[davelepka 4]

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I would also guess that the consequences of a low turn under a paraglider are more severe, so your instincts are likely to be on the safe side.

Why is that?

Paragliders have a very high aspect ratio giving them a very short recovery arc.

Either way, 25 jumps a bit soon for a 150. If the guy was a good pilot, he would respect the new class of wing he's flying, and work his way down one step at time.

[billvon 3,027]

>Is this unreasonable given that I have flown a minimum of 150
>hours every year for the last 10 years with a paraglider.

This is actually kinda worrisome. Paragliders descend much more slowly, and tend to be less manueverable than parachutes (depends on the paraglider of course.) I've done things with my SuperSpace near the ground that I'd never do under my Pilot 150, because I know that the wing won't dive as hard or descend as fast as the parachute.

Try a Pilot 188 or equivalent. Really wring it out; flat turns and whatnot. Then if you still want to go smaller try a Pilot 168.

[tdog 0]

I am no expert at paragliding or skydiving... But I had some paragliding experience on my Gin Bolero before coming into skydiving. Not near your paragliding experience, but some...

I don't know your wing loading at 150 or experience with lots of landings and high traffic.

The two major differences I felt right away...

1) Traffic. I was used to doing CReW with remote controlled gliders that 5 year olds were bombing my way, but having 20 canopies landing at the same time was rather new.

2) Adrenaline. After a flight on a paraglider, I tended to be real relaxed and calm for the landings, (as you launch when you want, not when the plane is over the DZ, and you get sometimes a much longer flight from the launch to landing) but skydiving has this little thing called freefall. Decisions are different when you are amped up...

But I also learned first hand on a paraglider how painful and dangerous landing in a toggle turn can be... A lot of the discipline needed to fly a canopy safely translates to both types of wings...

Also, I learned a lot more about weather and things like asymmetric collapses flying a paraglider...

I think the key is to work with a local instructor, and learn as much as you can. I am sure you can more aggressively downsize than the average joe, but with knowledge and training. Don't trust anyone here, myself included, to know how your paragliding experience will relate to skydiving... You need someone you can trust locally to help you.

Also, Brian Germain, one of the respected canopy instructors and authors of many skydiving books is an avid paraglider pilot. You should contact him at www.bigairsportz.com, as he will give you the honest to goodness opinion, especially since he wrote the "wing loading not to exceed chart" that a lot of people quote at the de-facto standard in our sport.

Just my two cents.

[nathaniel 0]

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Even if he weighs 100 lbs soaking wet, a 150 is still no place for someone with 25 jumps.

Rubbish.

To the original poster: what's your
* age (old/middle/young),
* sex (F/M),
* type of employment (blue/white collar, public sector/private sector is detailed enough),
* height (short/average/tall),
* income class (low, middle, upper is detailed enough, or don't say if you don't want to)
* level of education ( bachelor)

The reason for these personal questions is that for an average-sized person 150 sqft might be on the risky side, and your answers to these questions help us determine how likely it is you actually mean to be seeking out risk.

Nobody is going to tell you to go ahead and make a risky decision because we live in a litigious society and as a community skydivers are terrified of lawsuits.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[justinb138 0]

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Rubbish.

This guy doesn't agree with you. Heard of him?

http://www.briangermain.com

[nathaniel 0]

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This guy doesn't agree with you. Heard of him?

I'm interested more in why he thinks otherwise rather than that.

Whenever this subject coms up it seems like there's always a lot of hushed tones... I really wish we could muster up the courage to reason our way through it.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[justinb138 0]

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This guy doesn't agree with you. Heard of him?

I'm interested more in why he thinks otherwise rather than that.

Whenever this subject coms up it seems like there's always a lot of hushed tones... I really wish we could muster up the courage to reason our way through it.

I think he discusses it in his book, but I don't remember the context of it. I guess I need to do some more reading.

[riggermick 7]

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Even if he weighs 100 lbs soaking wet, a 150 is still no place for someone with 25 jumps.

Rubbish.

To the original poster: what's your
* age (old/middle/young),
* sex (F/M),
* type of employment (blue/white collar, public sector/private sector is detailed enough),
* height (short/average/tall),
* income class (low, middle, upper is detailed enough, or don't say if you don't want to)
* level of education ( bachelor)

The reason for these personal questions is that for an average-sized person 150 sqft might be on the risky side, and your answers to these questions help us determine how likely it is you actually mean to be seeking out risk.

Nobody is going to tell you to go ahead and make a risky decision because we live in a litigious society and as a community skydivers are terrified of lawsuits.

Well that's a hell of a reasoned arguement what with all of your experience and time in sport and all of the low timers that you've seen maimed or killed not because they were in over their heads, but because of just plain bad luck. Oh wait according to your profile your sum total of experience comes to, um let me see........NOTHING!!!

Until you identify yourself and state your experience your arguement is not worthy of debate. You know who I am and my experience, time to ante up.

Mick.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Even if he weighs 100 lbs soaking wet, a 150 is still no place for someone with 25 jumps.

Rubbish.

To the original poster: what's your
* age (old/middle/young),
* sex (F/M),
* type of employment (blue/white collar, public sector/private sector is detailed enough),
* height (short/average/tall),
* income class (low, middle, upper is detailed enough, or don't say if you don't want to)
* level of education ( bachelor)

The reason for these personal questions is that for an average-sized person 150 sqft might be on the risky side, and your answers to these questions help us determine how likely it is you actually mean to be seeking out risk.

Nobody is going to tell you to go ahead and make a risky decision because we live in a litigious society and as a community skydivers are terrified of lawsuits.

Did you take line length into consideration? Smaller canopies tend to turn faster than larger versions of the same model at similar wing loadings. Faster turns mean higher G forces (in the turn), which in turn increases the wing loading, which speeds up the turn, which increases the G forces . . .

There is more to choosing an appropriate canopy than wing loading, although WL is an important consideration.

For Great Deals on Gear

[nathaniel 0]

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your sum total of experience comes to,

I don't write down my numbers here because I'm not interested in a pissing contest over jumps. I've actually stopped keeping track.
You have an opportunity to tell us what you know or you can just boast about your delightful experiences.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[davelepka 4]

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You have an opportunity to tell us what you know

So far, the other respondents have told you either ehat they know, or at least who they are. So far, you have stated neither.

Here's what you don't seem to know (or if you do, you don't sem to acknowledge). The 150 is generally regarded as the transition size, where WL needs to be looked at differently. This subject has been discussed, and put into practice with regards to the lighter female students (100ish lbs.). At 150 and under the line length is such that the canopy becomes 'twitchy' in comparison to what youwant to see an inexperienced pilot under. Indeed, there are extremes, like an 85 lb. student, who may be bale to get away with it, but they are the exception, not the rule.

Here's the bitch of it all. If you had read the thread, you'd see that the DZ he jumps at has given him a 190 to jump at the 25 jump level. Provided he's an exceptional pilot (which he claims to be) it only stands to reason that the DZ would have him at an above average WL. IF that puts him under a 190, we're looking a weight of at least 170 lbs. Add gear and his WL on a 150 is out of the question for a guy with 25 jumps. How you missed this, I do not know.

The other reason you're wrong (which you are) is that your refusal to divuldge any info about yourself or your experience leads one to believe you're hiding something. Is it your lack of experience? Or is it lack of confidence in your posts? Either way it makes no difference. If a guy with 5 jumps had a valid point, which he explained sufficiently, I would put his experience aside, and consider the point on it's own merits. Conversely, if a guy with 5000 jumps had a point which he couldn't explain very well, I might use his experience to give some extra consideration to the point.

It seems as if you lack a point or experience or both.

[nathaniel 0]

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The 150 is generally regarded as the transition size

Everybody knows this, how do they know?
I'd say with equally scarce justification it's a bit (a lot) more fluid than that.
It's hard to talk about particulars of this case since the OP provided next to no information that could be used to give him advice, so instead we all start making gratuitous assumptions.
So we should start by asking him questions before giving him advice. Questions about his physical dimensions, like others have asked, and questions about what he's interested in.
Tell me what is wrong about that, besides that it's "generally regarded", tell me why. Can you?

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[riggermick 7]

I don't write down my numbers here because I'm not interested in a pissing contest over jumps. I've actually stopped keeping track.

You have an opportunity to tell us what you know or you can just boast about your delightful experiences.

[nathaniel 0]

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Unless you post this info I can't in good concience take ANYTHING yo say at face value.

Pity.
This sport is mired in mythology and oral history.
Jumpers that post on this board are just as fallable as everybody else, if not more prone to making false assumptions and leaping to unsupported conclusions. Famous names and the number of people that subscribe to their narratives are no insurance--with no offense intended to the accomplishments that make such a person famous to begin with....
I'd just as soon people forgot about who I might be and concentrate on skydiving.
We're really getting into soapbox material here....but how much of a statement is it that we're not capable of evaluating a proposition outright but have to rely on its pedigree?

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[wmw999 2,473]

What is the support for your proposition, that a 150 might be OK for someone who is currently on a 190?

Mick posted his rationale. I think it makes sense. What is your rationale? People with experience don't necessarily know the answers. But they often have made a lot more mistakes, and even if they only learn from half of them, that makes a difference.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[nathaniel 0]

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What is the support for your proposition, that a 150 might be OK for someone who is currently on a 190?

I think that's the default, since it's a statement of an unknown.
And I think it's not entirely implausible that it may yet be an OK canopy depending on a lot of factors. I know that I was put on a 150 when I had not many more jumps than 25 with the assent of my AFF instructors, and I was/am neither an excellent canopy pilot nor particularly aggressive in my canopy preferences. Although I am lightweight. I ended up buying a 150 when I had around 60 jumps.
If (and this is a big if) this guy were in a similar circumstance I think it'd be entirely reasonable for him to buy a 150. Maybe not a stiletto 150, but who knows, maybe.
Now, whether I'd actually go out and tell him to buy a particular canopy or not is an entirely different story, knowing neither him nor the gear. Nobody wants to stick their neck out and have this guy make a bad choice and hurt himself...but being overconservative is also a bad choice.

My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski?

[wmw999 2,473]

In a world of science, starting with an unknown and then disproving it works beautifully. There is rarely a downside to it.

But think about how drugs are developed. Once you get to humans, they don't start that way -- they've done a lot of testing to eliminate a lot of the unknowns first. Because in this society, process of elimination by eliminating people is not seen as a very good idea.

Based on my experience in actually flying a decent number of canopy sizes, I'd have to say that for most people, a larger, more forgiving canopy is a better idea than a smaller, zippier one.

The error modes of a large canopy are mostly ones of inconvenience -- you can't jump if it's too windy, it takes a long time to turn, you back up on landing, and you land out more often. BFD.

The error modes of a smaller canopy seem to be more likely (note this is not a black/white thing) to be ones involving injury. The speeds, both forward and downward, are faster, which can lead to things being broken when panicked.

You have to start with an assumption to disprove -- howzabout you disprove that larger canopies are a better choice for students?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)