Are we ever gonna learn?

[skybill 22]

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As long as skydivers feel that there is no penalty for swooping in the so called predictable landing areas, our brothers and sisters will continue to die. Most of what I read and hear is simply lip service.

Starting with the S&T people at each DZ, unless you are serious about training and ENFORCING the landing pattern rules, skydivers will continue to die, innocent bystanders about 1/2 the time.

The DZO's need to strictly enforce the landing pattern rules and quit allowing the "skygods" to do whatever they wish.

In my limited travels to other DZ's, the only one that seems to be serious about enforcing landing pattern rules is Perris Valley and not being there last week, I can't explain what happened.

Placing a swoop pond in the path of everyone walking back from a skydive is dangerous! Saying one thing to people boarding an airplane before a skydive and allowing anyone do their own thing after the fact is dangerous.

A lot of the problems stem from people afraid to land downwind. Learn how so you are not chasing a windsock. Be predictable and limit your excitement after the parachute opens when you are in the pattern. If you want to swop and do hook turns, do it where EVERYONE is expecting you to, or in my opinion, you should have to sit down for a long time!

The deaths under working parachutes are such a waste and so needless. Quite being inconsiderate and selfish with your fun!

Hi Dan,
ya' got a lot a' good points. As for the "Fear" of landing down wind, I don't know about "fear" maybe "respect for the situation." As for chasing windsocks, if the windsock is doing 360's there are other problems to deal with!! Otherwise, I'm landing "into the wind..period!" I am not going to risk a high speed, down wind landing! Why do I want to increase my risk for broken bones?? Sure landing down wind is cool and groovy and you can leave rooster tails in the dirt and get more miles out of your swoop, FINE!! But just because you want to, don't expect me to, got that!!!

Someone said to my late friend Harry Leicher,"Harry, why did you land way out there, nobody else did??" to which he said,"your statement answered your question." Funny how that goes.

PS So ya' wanna go "Down wind??" Go search my posts for the one where I talk about the late (he got killed in the Taft Crash) Brady "Down Wind Brady' Sanders from Otay!!!!! Now "That's" Down wind!!

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[jumpwally 0]

They are also making a lot of canopies that are not needed,,,,

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[danornan 79]

Quote

Quote

As long as skydivers feel that there is no penalty for swooping in the so called predictable landing areas, our brothers and sisters will continue to die. Most of what I read and hear is simply lip service.

Starting with the S&T people at each DZ, unless you are serious about training and ENFORCING the landing pattern rules, skydivers will continue to die, innocent bystanders about 1/2 the time.

The DZO's need to strictly enforce the landing pattern rules and quit allowing the "skygods" to do whatever they wish.

In my limited travels to other DZ's, the only one that seems to be serious about enforcing landing pattern rules is Perris Valley and not being there last week, I can't explain what happened.

Placing a swoop pond in the path of everyone walking back from a skydive is dangerous! Saying one thing to people boarding an airplane before a skydive and allowing anyone do their own thing after the fact is dangerous.

A lot of the problems stem from people afraid to land downwind. Learn how so you are not chasing a windsock. Be predictable and limit your excitement after the parachute opens when you are in the pattern. If you want to swop and do hook turns, do it where EVERYONE is expecting you to, or in my opinion, you should have to sit down for a long time!

The deaths under working parachutes are such a waste and so needless. Quite being inconsiderate and selfish with your fun!

Hi Dan,
ya' got a lot a' good points. As for the "Fear" of landing down wind, I don't know about "fear" maybe "respect for the situation." As for chasing windsocks, if the windsock is doing 360's there are other problems to deal with!! Otherwise, I'm landing "into the wind..period!" I am not going to risk a high speed, down wind landing! Why do I want to increase my risk for broken bones?? Sure landing down wind is cool and groovy and you can leave rooster tails in the dirt and get more miles out of your swoop, FINE!! But just because you want to, don't expect me to, got that!!!

Someone said to my late friend Harry Leicher,"Harry, why did you land way out there, nobody else did??" to which he said,"your statement answered your question." Funny how that goes.

PS So ya' wanna go "Down wind??" Go search my posts for the one where I talk about the late (he got killed in the Taft Crash) Brady "Down Wind Brady' Sanders from Otay!!!!! Now "That's" Down wind!!

I might be misunderstanding you, but to land into the wind, regardless, might kill you and someone else, if that is not the previously agreed pattern.

It is possible to land downwind safely and under control. If you are going to land "your own way" to do it safely, it must be far from everyone who follows the agreed pattern.

I only expect everyone below a certain altitude to be in the agreed pattern. It's predictable.

Dano

[wmw999 2,461]

Lots of people have learned. But every year there's a new batch of 4th graders who have to learn the same skills. And lots of people who have advanced past 4th grade who never did master fractions (or, well, canopy/winds/landing)

And it never bites most people who don't master it, because they never get into a position where they need those skills. If it's because they're careful, good for them. If it's because they're lucky, well, hopefully they have a big bucket of luck.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[skybill 22]

Quote

Quote

Quote

As long as skydivers feel that there is no penalty for swooping in the so called predictable landing areas, our brothers and sisters will continue to die. Most of what I read and hear is simply lip service.

Starting with the S&T people at each DZ, unless you are serious about training and ENFORCING the landing pattern rules, skydivers will continue to die, innocent bystanders about 1/2 the time.

The DZO's need to strictly enforce the landing pattern rules and quit allowing the "skygods" to do whatever they wish.

In my limited travels to other DZ's, the only one that seems to be serious about enforcing landing pattern rules is Perris Valley and not being there last week, I can't explain what happened.

Placing a swoop pond in the path of everyone walking back from a skydive is dangerous! Saying one thing to people boarding an airplane before a skydive and allowing anyone do their own thing after the fact is dangerous.

A lot of the problems stem from people afraid to land downwind. Learn how so you are not chasing a windsock. Be predictable and limit your excitement after the parachute opens when you are in the pattern. If you want to swop and do hook turns, do it where EVERYONE is expecting you to, or in my opinion, you should have to sit down for a long time!

The deaths under working parachutes are such a waste and so needless. Quite being inconsiderate and selfish with your fun!

Hi Dan,
ya' got a lot a' good points. As for the "Fear" of landing down wind, I don't know about "fear" maybe "respect for the situation." As for chasing windsocks, if the windsock is doing 360's there are other problems to deal with!! Otherwise, I'm landing "into the wind..period!" I am not going to risk a high speed, down wind landing! Why do I want to increase my risk for broken bones?? Sure landing down wind is cool and groovy and you can leave rooster tails in the dirt and get more miles out of your swoop, FINE!! But just because you want to, don't expect me to, got that!!!

Someone said to my late friend Harry Leicher,"Harry, why did you land way out there, nobody else did??" to which he said,"your statement answered your question." Funny how that goes.

PS So ya' wanna go "Down wind??" Go search my posts for the one where I talk about the late (he got killed in the Taft Crash) Brady "Down Wind Brady' Sanders from Otay!!!!! Now "That's" Down wind!!

I might be misunderstanding you, but to land into the wind, regardless, might kill you and someone else, if that is not the previously agreed pattern.

It is possible to land downwind safely and under control. If you are going to land "your own way" to do it safely, it must be far from everyone who follows the agreed pattern.

I only expect everyone below a certain altitude to be in the agreed pattern. It's predictable.

OK Dan, Let me try this again,
What Harry said!!
At the bottom of Harry Leicher's posts he would put where someone would ask him,..."Harry, why did you land all the way out there?? Nobody else landed out there." To which Harry replied,"Your statement answered your question." Maybe you didn't know Harry. If you did, maybe you'd understand.

Maybe, just maybe, are you starting to get a clue??

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[danornan 79]

Bill,

I think I got it..... Me too.... I generally land as far from the packing area as possible too! Seems to be safer since I can't seem to convene a few of the logic of a predictable pattern.

Dano

[airtwardo 7]

I aways land on the target, it the safest place on the drop zone!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[grimmie 186]

Bill, Sometimes when the winds are light and variable, like a usual afternoon in Perris with windsocks fluttering in 4 different directions, there are jumpers that won't land in a 3-5kt downwind. Instead they hook it last minute or go opposing traffic. Sometimes windsocks are the enemy to safety.

And I agree with my late pal Harry. I always say..

"It's better to walk 50 yards than get helicoptered 50 miles"

[skybill 22]

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Bill, Sometimes when the winds are light and variable, like a usual afternoon in Perris with windsocks fluttering in 4 different directions, there are jumpers that won't land in a 3-5kt downwind. Instead they hook it last minute or go opposing traffic. Sometimes windsocks are the enemy to safety.

And I agree with my late pal Harry. I always say..

"It's better to walk 50 yards than get helicoptered 50 miles"

Hi Rich,
Yup, that shear line out between the sidewalk in front of manifest straight out to where Case Rd and the canal cross. It's been there for years!! 'Seen lots of good stuff out there!! It's a trip to watch it in action during the summer when it sucks up the hardpan dust and you can "See it!!"

SCR-2034, SCS-680

III%,
Deli-out

[catfishhunter 2]

Quote

What do you do with this jumper? Yes, they went counter to the plan, but they had a hard pull and a stuck brake, and they couldn't make it to the pattern in their assigned sector. They didn't mean any harm, and didn't do it with malice, but they ended up where they ended up. Do you ax them from the big way they traveled for? Do you ground them all together?

Yes. it will only take 1 MAYBE 2 jumpers to lose a couple grand on a trip for the rest to figure it out.

MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT
Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose.

[mirage62 0]

TK,

I'm really asking a serious question here not trying to start anything.

Does Z-hills have a policy for landing directions and a seperate landing area for HP landings? If they do is it strickly inforced?

I'm asking because until the dropzones start enforcing that kind of things (patterns) than it will stay the same. As a group skydivers don't seem to be able to agree on it.

The dropzone that prevents these kinds of accidents will slowly become "better" and the larger ones (z-hills, perris, eloy) will slowly "force" the others along.

Maybe

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[tkhayes 348]

we have no real 'policies'; land into the wind, follow the other jumpers down, if you are doing Hp landings, then you need to get your own pass, i.e. you cannot be a hazard t others, and if you do something stupid, on ANY jump, then expect to be spoken to about it.

We have a huge landing area, no need to separate it.

[billvon 3,009]

>we have no real 'policies' . . .

Then you are violating the agreement you signed as a group member.

[mirage62 0]

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We have a huge landing area, no need to separate it.

I swear to god TK I'm not trying to start anything but doesn't that statement in itself MEAN you should? I mean since nobody has an area they are suppose to go to they go wherever they want....which as we all know is closest to the packing tent....

Kevin Keenan is my hero, a double FUP, he does so much with so little

[chuckakers 425]

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I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

In a word, no.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[phoenixlpr 0]

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I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

Never. You still ask the same stupid question.

[popsjumper 2]

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we have no real 'policies';

No policy = anarchy

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if you are doing Hp landings, then you need to get your own pass

,
Hmmmm....swoopers going to altitude getting their own pass? I've never seen that.

We have a huge landing area, no need to separate it.

[DSE 5]

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I count 5 fatalities this year already related to canopy/winds/landing.

Are we ever gonna learn anything?

Last week, watched a beginning swooper downwind and biff hard. Myself and one other had a word with him. He explained that the winds were wonky near the pond.
Yesterday in Hawaii, same beginning swooper didn't want to land too far away from the LZ on a short spot, so he downwinded it, only to find that the "grass" was over concrete. He wasn't seriously injured, just bloody hands, knees, thigh, feet and damage to someone else' jumpsuit.
When the S&TA talked to him, he insisted "I coulda landed it fine if there wasn't concrete under there. I just didn't know. I couldn't slide my feet."
Unfamiliar DZ, unfamiliar landing area, low jump numbers, 15kt winds, and still he doesn't see the error.

Long winded "not likely."

[ridestrong 1]

At least it wasn't his jumpsuit.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[tkhayes 348]

pretty much everything I have said so far, have been already mis-interpreted, and then changed into something that it is not.

So I will stop commenting on my own thread.

[billvon 3,009]

>pretty much everything I have said so far, have been already
>mis-interpreted, and then changed into something that it is not.

I don't think anything has been misinterpreted.

You asked "will we ever learn?" and there was some good discussion about how to avoid injuries/deaths. Then someone suggested that perhaps _you_ could do something to avoid injuries, at which point you decided to stop posting.

"We" includes everyone, including you. We can all do things to avoid injuries. It's not always "the other guy."

[jsaxton 0]

can I put a $20 down?

[liftedtitan 0]

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we have no real 'policies'.

how is this mis-interpreted? you even put policies in quotes like its some joke. Not being a dick or anything, but it doesn't give a good impression of one of the biggest DZ's here.

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[danornan 79]

Seems like if we treated the landing patterns of skydivers on a DZ like an "airport" and required a predictable pattern approach that was enforced, a lot of the problems would go away. Not necessarily eliminated, but greatly reduced.

Below 500 feet you get into the pattern and fly predictably. No hook turns or swoops except in designated areas. As it is now, I land as far away from the normal landing areas, because in my opinion, they are too unsafe.

Dano

[blkhwk91b 0]

"Are we ever gonna learn?"

I just don't know how "fair" this statement is.

You can train, study, and shit a SIM in the middle of a wet dream and still die participating in this sport.

I just don't think you are going to see a year in review of 0 fatalities. It's the nature of the beast and makes this sport, in part, appealing to those willing to "live on the edge".

No, I'm not a necromonger, but would this sport have the same appeal with 20 years of no deaths. I'm not sure it would. (in a perfect world would I like 20 years of no fatalities, well no shit).

I'm just not sure it's an all inclusive "are we ever gonna learn" sorta thing. People make mistakes and die. Just so happens that mistakes in this world are not very forgiving.

I cringe every time there is a new posting in the Incident forum, but realize that this sense of danger and extremism is part of the appeal.

"Better to have a short life that is full of what you like doing, than a long life spent in a miserable way." - Alan Watts