ntrprnr 0 #1 January 9, 2006 Hey gang... I'm jumping a Safire 2, 229. Out the door weight is about 230. When I bought the rig about 4 months ago, out the door weight was around 255. (I did a bit of radical dieting.) Now, most every time I open, I'm getting lots of end cell closures. Nothing a flare won't fix, but the slider comes down about 2/3rds, hangs out there, until I flare. Annoying if I want to coast without releasing my brakes. Is it possible that this is happening due to the canopy now being too "big" for me? I.e., 25 orr so pounds lighter I am? I don't know enough to know if that's even a relevant amount of weight to have any effect. Was going to downsize to a 209 sometime soon, anyway... Probably late spring - really want to be great on my current wing before I even consider going lower... Any thoughts on what might be causing this? Thanks much!_______________ "Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?" "Even in freefall, I have commitment issues." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reginald 0 #2 January 9, 2006 I get end cell closures on most jumps. Dont worry about it. You can clear them by using your rear risers if you don't want to unstow your brakes right away. Be careful though and unstow your brakes above your hard deck!"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yamtx73 0 #3 January 9, 2006 Right now I'm jumping a Navigator 240 at my dz, my weight out the door is 170 so I doubt your problem is due to weight loss. Talk to your rigger about this, he may have some suggestions.The only naturals in this sport shit thru feathers... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #4 January 9, 2006 It could be as simple as your using a different packer.etc..._________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #5 January 9, 2006 Quotebut the slider comes down about 2/3rds, hangs out there, until I flare. Annoying if I want to coast without releasing my brakes. You can also clear that by working the rear risers. Give them a few tugs, and see whta happens. Leaving your brakes stowed is over-rated anyway. If you end up with a stuck toggle, you're just delaying your cutaway. Do a full control check upon opening. Don't sweat the end cell thing either. It means your canopy is opening slow, which is good. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #6 January 9, 2006 When I was a student, I never had end cell closures on the Navigatos, or on the Silhouette 230 I jumped right off of student status. I demo'd a Sabre2 230 a few weeks later and had end cell closures on every single jump. I'd get them occasionally on a Safire2 209, but haven't ever had them on my Firebolt yet. I'd bet that canopy design plays a bigger part of it than wingloading. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stumpy 284 #7 January 9, 2006 Dave - can you clarify this? This is what the PD rep said when i demoed the sbre 2. he said it would have end cell closures and the slider might not come down "because it opened slow" yet i then demoed a pilot where the opening was noticeably softer and none of this happened. Is end cell closure actually related to opening speed?Never try to eat more than you can lift Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NelKel 0 #8 January 9, 2006 Please correct me, but the Pilot manual states not to role the nose. The PD manual says to role 4 to center per side. I think this is what the jumper is seeing, a difference in packing._________________________________________ Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntrprnr 0 #9 January 9, 2006 QuotePlease correct me, but the Pilot manual states not to role the nose. The PD manual says to role 4 to center per side. I think this is what the jumper is seeing, a difference in packing. Actually, I specifically asked the packer if she was rolling the nose - she said no, she never does on an SF2... Oh well - It's still an awesome wing. :)_______________ "Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?" "Even in freefall, I have commitment issues." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #10 January 9, 2006 The whole opening process is a balance between forces. Airspeed trying to inflate the canopy also helps to keep it shut by holding the slider up, which constricts the canopy. It a big circular thing, where one pressure will increase slightly and offset another, which will then build and offset the first pressure, and so on. The basic idea is that when the slider hangs up it's beacuse of line friction, and becasue the canopy isn't trying that hard to spread out anymore. The end result is closed end cells. There's no way to tell when it will happen or not happen. A canopy with line trim problems MAY do it every time. Either way, it's usually following a soft opening, which is a good thing, and it's simple to fix. If closed end cells are the worst of your troubles, you're in good shape. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ripcord4 0 #11 January 10, 2006 I jump an Mt-1XX 370 sq ft canopy. My out the door weight is 225 with a very light wing loading and I have never had a closed end cell or a hung slider. I doubt your recent weight loss is responsible for the closed end cells Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rwieder 0 #12 January 10, 2006 QuoteAny thoughts on what might be causing this? Loosen your chest strap a bit to spread your risers? The slider not coming down is what makes me think this. I used to fly brand X canopy and it did the same thing. I loosened up the chest strap a bit, it didn't alleviate the situation entirely but it helped to a great degree.-Richard- "You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
flyinghonu 0 #13 January 10, 2006 I jump a Safire 2 149 with just under a 1.0 wingloading. This happens to me almost all the time. However, I just pump the rears on opening and no problem. I asked another girl at the DZ who loaded her Safire 2 at almost the same wingloading - happened to her all the time too. "Excuse me while I kiss the sky..." - Jimi Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divnswoop 0 #14 January 10, 2006 Well.......that's a lot of advice. Personally, I wouldn't do anything different with your pack job OR your gear. I would do what your supposed to do on every single deployment. Unstow your toggles, pump your brakes, and do a controlability check. Closed end cells at that wingloading on that canopy isn't that big of a deal to change everything around..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #15 January 10, 2006 Wingloading may not be the issue, changing from 1.1 to 1.0 w/l wouldn't likely be a problem. Not saying it isn't a factor but as an example one of my mains acts like that at 1.6 w/l. Canopies are complicated, getting help from a good packer or rigger could assist you.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #16 January 10, 2006 My Safire 2 also gives me closed end cells probably half of the time, and I'm probably loading about the same as you. I always get them open by pumping the rear risers... I definately prefer this slow / closed end cell opening over a hard opening FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #17 January 10, 2006 Welcome to the good old days! Hee! Hee! Back before cross-ports ere fashionable, we suffered closed end cells on every opening. The part that I did not like was the end cells on my ropes-and-rings Strato-Cloud collapsing as I turned onto final approach! Relax ... enjoy those soft openings. Closed ends cells are such a tiny problem that there is no use losing sleep over them. If you are still bothered by them, then ask your local Master Rigger to measure your lines (trim check) to confirm that they have not shrunk too badly over the last few hundred jumps. Another option is to forget about rolling the nose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ntrprnr 0 #18 January 10, 2006 Thank you all SO much - Really appreciate all the advice! :D ntrprnr_______________ "Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?" "Even in freefall, I have commitment issues." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Superman32 0 #19 January 10, 2006 Somewhere in the PD website there is a video showing end-cell closures. They say just let the thing fly and it will correct itself or pump the breaks and it will inflate. I think the video is about the Sabre2 I've been jumping the S2 and pretty much every jump has had end-cell closure. I like the soft opening so don't care much about it Inveniam Viam aut Faciam I'm back biatches! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeepDiver 0 #20 January 10, 2006 QuoteI've been jumping the S2 and pretty much every jump has had end-cell closure. Same here. I just tug slightly on the rear risers or not, often by the time I've collapsed my slider they have inflated. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
davelepka 4 #21 January 10, 2006 QuoteSame here. I just tug slightly on the rear risers or not, often by the time I've collapsed my slider they have inflated. Even just unstowing the brakes, or doing a turn will inflate them. You don't even need them to land. All they do is slow you down anyway, fuck those end cells. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #22 January 11, 2006 QuoteAnother option is to forget about rolling the nose. Does anyone roll the nose on anything besides a Sabre1? That is the only canopy I've heard of needing to have the nose rolled, but what do I know. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattjw916 2 #23 January 11, 2006 On F-111 canopies, like the PD 9-cell, that have a lot of jumps on them rolling the nose helps slow the openings down to something bearable. On the vast majority of modern ZP canopies it just isn't necessary, although I have seen it done on various canopies from time to time.NSCR-2376, SCR-15080 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skytash 0 #24 January 11, 2006 I asked a rigger once what I could do to reduce the end cell closures on my Sabre 2. The answer was, get a different canopy if they really bother you that much. As it happens, they don't bother me, so i still have the Sabre 2. tashDon't ever save anything for a special occasion. Being alive is a special occasion. Avril Sloe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #25 January 12, 2006 Here is the link to the video Superman32 was talking about http://www.performancedesigns.com/canopyinfo.asp. Hover your mouse over the image to show play options. Also, pumping the toggles/risers isn't nearly as efficient as simply pulling them down a few inches and holding them for a few seconds (after clearing your air space, of course). This slows the canopy's forward flight and allows the end cells to finish inflating, which spreads the lines apart and pushes the slider the rest of the way down if it's not already. Stupid, slow opening canopies... Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
