packing a PD Sabre1...

[justinb138 0]

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It shows a lack of mentoring that lead to an incident.

Not really. If the incident you speak of actually happened (I really don't recall anything about it in the past year or so), it shows that someone got in over their head and got hurt. A single incident doesn't really show anything. Since you obviously know so much about statistics, I'm sure you knew that.

Looks like you're running out of things to say so you're going to start attacking my home DZ. It's a pretty pathetic argument, but I can't say that I'm suprised.

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Obviously you know nothing about statistics since generally you have to calculate them before you use them to refute something. I'll do it for you then... if you add up all the threads about Safires, Stilletos, Velocitys, FXs, VXs, and just about any other canopy you can think of it won't even come close to equalling the number of threads about Sabres opening hard.

Doubtful, but basing stuff on what threads are posted here is a pretty shitty way to get accurate statistics anyway.

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Hmmm... that argument seems to be getting a little weak.

Ah, ok. So that's why you're trying to attack my home DZ now. I understand.

I don't have anything to add to this thread that hasn't already been said. Feel free to reply if you wan't, but don't expect another response from me, as I'm tired of wasting my time arguing with you over unrelated stuff.

[n23x 0]

???
I thought I said "I couldn't agree more with Skybytch" = "I agree with skybytch lots!"?
???

I think the advice that she gave was great, and appropriate. I agree that it has the potential as a great student canopy, because the price can be right, and the opening "deficiency" that is present in some can usually be fixed. It is also the jam to fly around, has good flare, and you can learn a ton!

But mostly just her defense of the fact that a new jumper doesn't necessarily need to buy brand new equipement to jump, otherwise they're "asking for trouble". It is really most discouraging to hear some jumpers hassle other jumpers because they don't have the latest and greatest.

Not directed at you Feeblemind
Is the peepee contest over yet?

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[monkycndo 0]

Not to fan the flames, just to tell of my firsthand experience. I am one of those that likes his Sabre and has never been spanked after 200 jumps. It is my first canopy. I enjoy it. Had a conversation this weekend with a fellow jumper that got spanked a few times. He got tired of his. I agree that you have to be aware of how to pack it. I was taught all the ways to keep it from slamming me. I have played with how I pack it to actually open a bit quicker. It might sound crazy, but I was getting snivels of over 800', which is longer then I prefer. Now I pack in a way that gives me a +/- 600' snivel with more soft, on heading openings. I might be one of the lucky ones and have a well behaved Sabre. Or maybe the other folks have one of the few really nasty ones. I can't say which is correct.

There's an old saying. Happy customers tell 3 people. Dissatisfied customers tell 10 people.

I am happy with mine and just figured I'd tell those 3 people.

50 donations so far. Give it a try.

You know you want to spank it
Jump an Infinity

[hki 0]

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Also, they're all getting old, and not everyone relines their canopies the way they should. Often times it is a price motivated purchase, and with a well used Sabre selling for $400, the cost of a reline really increases the cost factor.

It seems I have a well behaved Sabre, because it has not spanked me (yet) during about 50 jumps. I do nothing special to slow down the openings while packing. Its a second hand rig and I think the slider may have been changed for a bigger one (I do not know how big the original slider is).

The lineset change comment made me wonder, however, if it is likely that after a competent rigger does a proper reline job with the canopy, it may start opening harder. Could it be that openings are ok because the lines may be slightly out of trim?

hki

[Elisha 1]

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Good god, are we on this bandwagon AGAIN!?

Just to throw in my 0.02$, I think the Sabre can be a fine canopy, and don't think it's trash. I agree that some can slam, but I don't think that it's an unfixable issue. Nor is it a killer issue.

To skybytch:

I owned both a Spectre and original Sabres, and I can honestly say that the Spectre has whacked me the hardest. I couldn't agree more with what you said.

To the original poster:

A lot of things can affect how these canopies open, and there are a lot of different options to modify the openings to your own comfort level.

Just don't jump on the "Sabres will break into your house, steal cash from your dresser, and knock up your daughter" mentality, like SOME people on this forum.

Approach it analytically, involve an experienced rigger/packer for slider/packing help, and then enjoy the hell out of that canopy.



.jim

Sorry to be the voice of reason here, but looking at you numbers and ratings (or lack there of) I would take Bytch advice over yours hands down. But that's just me.

mattjw316,
And I might add that when you start to get skydiving articles published as the skybytch, then we'll start to give what you say some consideration.

[teason 0]

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Sorry to be the voice of reason here, but looking at you numbers and ratings (or lack there of) I would take Bytch advice over yours hands down. But that's just me.

I've put over a 1000 jumps on a Sabre 170 over the past 13 years. To understand why Sabres have the rep that Mattjw916 blindly latches onto, you have to understand where equipment was in the early 90s.

First of, in the days of F111, if a new canopy slammed you, it had to be "worked in". This usually took about 50 jumps and then soft opening came into play. Relitively speaking, a hard opening in those days wasn't what we know as hard openings now. I heard people complaining about hard opening on Mantas! Jumpers also jumped big ass canopies and filling time can effect opening time.
There were alot of bagged out f111 canopies floating around the DZs in those days loaded well under 1:1. Very little thought was given to packing by the average jumper. I remember "roll packing" a friend's Pegasuis with a 6" hole in the slider (she wiegh about 130lbs).

Then came ZP canopies. Well, if you had hard openings, they didn't go away after 50 jumps! They continued.
The rules had changed regarding openings. New and creative ideas came into play. Tightly rolling the nose into the centre cell. Pushing the nose through the lines to the tail. Pulling the sider to burble the nose.
Then came the suspected causes like tube stoes, small lines stoes and offending the whack goddess.

I'm not denying that there where problem with Sabres in the early days. Every Sabre I've ever flown (mostly pre '95) has had it's own personality and some were certainly widow makers.
But the main cause of the rep comes from the transition to ZP canopies. In the early 90s, Hard opening weren't unique to Sabres, there were Conquests and Monarchs all doing the same thing. Also, we started jumping higher loadings. As time moves on, however, Sabres stood the test of the ages and have embodied those hard early ZP openings.

Unfortunately, now anytime someone sees or gets a hard opening on a Sabre, it'll be the Sabre's fault.
It's an easier excuse than body position, line trim, bag/canopy compatibility, packing errors etc...

With occams razor, we don't have address our skydiving or packing skill. That way we can remain perfect in our own mind.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[mattjw916 2]

Please review this concept:

Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[teason 0]

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Cognitive dissonance is a psychological phenomenon which refers to the discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation. It therefore occurs when there is a need to accommodate new ideas, and it may be necessary for it to develop so that we become "open" to them.

Ah yes, is that like when you tell someone there is more to hard openings then brand of canopy?

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[davelepka 4]

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discomfort felt at a discrepancy between what you already know or believe, and new information or interpretation

I have no discomfort with new ideas. You seem to have discomfort with the concpet that you don't know what you are talking about.

There no inherent design issues with the Sabre. Lets review:

-Highest prodcution numbers, leading to more overall jumps on Sabres, and more oppertunities for hard openings. I bet if we could track the number of cutaways, the Sabre would be near the top of the list, for the same reason.

-Inexpensive market price leads to purchase by those not likey to reline when needed.

-First canopy (due to low price) for many, which leads toward sloppy packing

This is hard to understand why? Even when accompnaied by many experienced jumpers who have actually put 1000's of jumps on them?

Look, I don't understand, nor would I ever want to jump a T-10 (round), but that doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. I know many old timers who say they love T-10s and there are a few who maintain them and still jump them from time to time.

I'm sure, however, that if I gave a poorly maintained T-10 to a newbie, with sparse instructions, and no suprevision, they're thoughts on the T-10 may differ. See?