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sundevil777 102
I think TVBP has it right, in that for CRW it could have advantages in a wrap. If you have shit around you and can't get out of it, I might want to be able to throw the reserve PC in a particular direction.
Each scenario is different, and it might be a lot easier to do it in theory than in practice.
Each scenario is different, and it might be a lot easier to do it in theory than in practice.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
CReWLL 0
Well, spring loaded pilot chutes have gone away on mains. Why do you think that's so? They pack big and don't get into clean air as well as a hand deployed pilot. How is a 'knocked loose' pud any different from a floating ripcord handle? The floating pud that seems to bother you is mounted on your back side, out of sight. This is not the case with the Woomera. The Woomera was a leading edge rig that modern AADs did in, as they can only be used with a spring loaded P/C.
CReWLL 0
Well, spring loaded pilot chutes have gone away on mains. Why do you think that's so? They pack big and don't get into clean air as well as a hand deployed pilot. How is a 'knocked loose' pud any different from a floating ripcord handle? The floating pud that seems to bother you is mounted on your back side, out of sight. This is not the case with the Woomera. The Woomera was a leading edge rig that modern AADs did in, as they can only be used with a spring loaded P/C.
CReWLL, Two Times??
Anyway... ya knock that pud loose on this Woomera thing, where's it gonna wind up? Behind you!
Floating rip-cord, yes, a serious problem if it happens to you when you want to get your reserve out, but at least the rip cord housing stays in place and at least gives you a place to try to get ahold of the cable, strip it and still pull the pin / get your reserve out.
Hand-deploy on a main vs. spring-loaded pilot chute on a main... Yes, getting a hand-deploy into clear air, in stable freefall, works at least as good as, probably better then a spring-loaded pilot chute, is a fact, but also consider the "less pain in the ass factor packing it" that makes a hand-deployed pilot chute on your main much much more inviting to skydivers too.
Currious... Have you ever jumped a Woomera or seen one on person? Or jumped a rig with a hand-deployed reserve and had to use it? Why wouldn't you jump a Woomera? ... or would you??
Anyway... ya knock that pud loose on this Woomera thing, where's it gonna wind up? Behind you!
Floating rip-cord, yes, a serious problem if it happens to you when you want to get your reserve out, but at least the rip cord housing stays in place and at least gives you a place to try to get ahold of the cable, strip it and still pull the pin / get your reserve out.
Hand-deploy on a main vs. spring-loaded pilot chute on a main... Yes, getting a hand-deploy into clear air, in stable freefall, works at least as good as, probably better then a spring-loaded pilot chute, is a fact, but also consider the "less pain in the ass factor packing it" that makes a hand-deployed pilot chute on your main much much more inviting to skydivers too.
Currious... Have you ever jumped a Woomera or seen one on person? Or jumped a rig with a hand-deployed reserve and had to use it? Why wouldn't you jump a Woomera? ... or would you??
billbooth 10
My very first Vector (1979) was designed with a "hand deploy/pull out reserve. That 1" space just inboard of the closed riser covers was for the Velcro path to the reserve pilot chute pocket or handle (in case the pull out version worked better). After considerable testing, I determined (with the help of almost everyone who test jumped it) that a pull out reserve was hard enough to use correctly on a planned deployment, and absolutely unthinkable in a panic situation. And, as was stated above, in incompatable with any sort of AAD. This is just one of many ideas (like a second reserve pilot chute) that I have tested and rejected in the past.
Bill, thank you for posting... and if I may say, I like it when you weigh in on subjects, bringing with, your undisputable expertise on the subject.
TVPB 0
Quote1. Do you think your chances are better firing a spring loaded pilot chute or a hand-deploy, if unstable, and still get your reserve out?
Considering most factors, I would pick hand deploy any time!!!!!! The only benefit a spring loaded p/c may have is that the spring may continue to allow air flow into the p/c when badly tangled whereas the same scenario may lead to a total collapse on a throwout or pullout.
QuoteFrom the pics, basically, it looks like they're using what amounts to a "pull out" system to hand-deploy the pilot chute
The Woomera is a pull out reserve system... That is what the linked thread says.
QuoteNow don't take that as me bangin' on pull-outs on mains, everything has its Pro's and Con's, I'm just saying do you want to deal with the Con's of a pull-out on your Reserve?
YES. I have considered the pro's and cons and am very happy to be using a Woomera container system for CRW jumps.
There were certainly more incident reports relating to pull out versus throw out about ten years ago on mains. I jumped pull outs for the early part of my career and NEVER had a problem. If you do read the incident reports, you will find that most incidents were due to poor maintenance, mismatching gear, improper use, . . . . A theme of people stuffing up!!!!. Now, I am not immune to stuffing up as I am a person, but this tells me that the gear is OK and the people using it may be a problem. I think throw outs are a better option for the general skydiving public. But pullouts are better in a number of situations. Toggles are similar. People lose/pop/drop them. When packed and maintained properly, I never lost my toggles. But there are other things that I have done that have led to mals/incidents - and I put it down to human error.
QuoteCurrious... Have you ever jumped a Woomera or seen one on person? Or jumped a rig with a hand-deployed reserve and had to use it? Why wouldn't you jump a Woomera? ... or would you??
YES. I would jump it and have jumped both the mains and reserve. It is no drama if done properly.
NOTE: I must temper the above opinions/experiences/comments with the fact that I am a BASE jumper that uses a single parachute throw out system!!!!! A spring loaded pilot chute IS NOT required for a reserve, and I do believe it is more of a hazard than a help in the BASE evnvironment. What happens if you have a pin rig and the closing loop tension is too high??? A pullout would be a better option in this case.... These comments are all about the importance of balancing fact and risk when making gear decisions.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
sundevil777 102
QuoteWhat happens if you have a pin rig and the closing loop tension is too high??? A pullout would be a better option in this case....
If the loop tension is high - so as to cause a high pull force, that high pull force doesn't change for a pull out system. If faced with a high pull force, I'll choose a ripcord handle to pull instead of a pud.
This is one of the things that I don't like about pull out main deployment systems - if the pin is more difficult to extract than it should be (for whatever reason), I think it somewhat likely that the pud handle will get pulled out of your hand before the pin is out. A throw out PC can pull with much more force than most are able to pull a main pud handle in the manner that it has to be pulled.
A hypothetical experiment: If you rigged up a pull out system for ground testing, and people used it many times and became used to a 10 pound extraction force, what would happen if the required force was suddenly 50 pounds? I think it likely that many would fail to extract the pin, or lose their grip on the handle. If you knew beforehand that it would be so tough to pull, you would likely succeed, but that is not the real world scenario. Of course a throw out can also have a tough extraction of the PC from the pouch, but for different reasons. However a lost pull out handle may be floating such that you have to re-grab it anywhere from the corner of your rig to the cover flap, compared to a floating throw out handle where you know that going back to the pouch location will allow you to grab the PC and complete the toss. I know there is more to this than I have described, but I don't think many advocates of pull out systems consider this disadvantage.
Is the Woomera a pull out or throw out reserve system?
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
TVPB 0
QuoteIf the loop tension is high - so as to cause a high pull force, that high pull force doesn't change for a pull out system. If faced with a high pull force, I'll choose a ripcord handle to pull instead of a pud.
As mentioned before, the Woomera is a great rig for CRW IMHO (this is my personal preference and I have also stated that the rig is not good for other disciplines - hence your argument is not relevant in most cases).
You can have your ripcord on a CRW jump!!!!!!! I am not even going to try and provide a counter argument as to why this is a bad idea. I am also talking about very competiive CRW. You know, build a quad in 15 secs and then do 15 to 20 rotations or 8 to 12 sequ manouvres. i.e. no time to stash crap in jumpsuits and create extra snag points.
QuoteThis is one of the things that I don't like about pull out main deployment systems - if the pin is more difficult to extract than it should be, I think it somewhat likely that the pud handle will get pulled out of your hand before the pin is out. A throw out PC can pull with much more force than most are able to pull a main pud handle in the manner that it has to be pulled.
The pull force on my Woomera is not high - I have actually tested it under quite a few scenarios when I first started packing reserves many years ago. It also has a curved pin. You may be correct about a percentage of the population not being able to supply suffiicent pull force on a pull out system. Hence my qualifier that the rig is not for everyone. I pack my reserve, I pack my main, I use the rig - the rig is NOT for a 45kg female who is doing freeflying. The reserve is easy to deploy, and can be safely done by an experienced person. It has its faults, as do most other systems. e.g. the Javelin Odyssey is a great rig. . . . for freefall. It is a piece of shit for CRW due to snag points. Hence in the right environment / application . . . . . . . .
QuoteA hypothetical experiment: If you rigged up a pull out system for ground testing, and people used it many times and became used to a 10 pound extraction force, what would happen if the required force was suddenly 50 pounds?
This is the same philosophy as a lab rat and an electric fence psychology experiment. The rat learns not to touch the fence after a few zaps. Why not teach the parachutist 50 lbs in the first place. You are limiting by repetitive reinforcement the operating range of the parachutist.
For the throw out and your p/c in pouch scenario. What about horse shoe mals?? They are real world scenario. They happen. You can have that mal. Especially on a CRW jump with a CRW canopy.... If you want to know why, feel free to ask.
Quotebut I don't think many advocates of pull out systems consider this disadvantage.
What about root cause analysis? I go back to my point that many pull out incidents were because . . . . . people error. The system, if used, maintained, and inspected correctly is perfectly functional.
QuoteIs the Woomera a pull out or throw out reserve system?
c.f. the heading of this thread. Look at the photo's. The person peels the handle and pulls it up, the pin pops, the p/c is then extracted from the container, . . . . . . . . It is a _ _ _ _ out system!!!!!
Remember what I have said before, this rig is NOT for everyone, and is certainly NOT appropriate for all skydiving disciplines. Like every system, it has its ads and disads. As jumper, you need to weigh them up for your scenario and make an appropriate decision. This decision should not be made by an inexperienced person (hence the E license requirement in Australia). But I affirm my strong conviction that this rig is appropriate for my scenario and the discipline of CRW.
The initial post was for informational purposes only............ Back to the CRW forums........
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
billvon 3,076
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>You know, build a quad in 15 secs and then do 15 to 20 rotations or 8
>to 12 sequ manouvres. i.e. no time to stash crap in jumpsuits and create
>extra snag points.
Are you really suggesting that ripcords are a bad idea on CRW because after a reserve deployment, it takes some time to stash the ripcord before you can get back to rotations?
>to 12 sequ manouvres. i.e. no time to stash crap in jumpsuits and create
>extra snag points.
Are you really suggesting that ripcords are a bad idea on CRW because after a reserve deployment, it takes some time to stash the ripcord before you can get back to rotations?
sundevil777 102
QuoteAs mentioned before, the Woomera is a great rig for CRW IMHO (this is my personal preference and I have also stated that the rig is not good for other disciplines - hence your argument is not relevant in most cases).
In post #9 of this thread I agreed with you that a pullout reserve PC could be an advantage for CRW.
I was responding to the assertion by TVPB:
QuoteWhat happens if you have a pin rig and the closing loop tension is too high??? A pullout would be a better option in this case....
I don't understand how a pullout is better if closing loop tension is too high.
QuoteWhy not teach the parachutist 50 lbs in the first place. You are limiting by repetitive reinforcement the operating range of the parachutist.
The hypothetical experiment was intended to simulate normal jumps. This "repetitive reinforcement" is what actually happens in real life, Even if you "teach for 50 lbs in the first place", they will get used to the normal pull force, and I was speculating about what might happen if it was suddenly higher.
QuoteWhat about horse shoe mals?? They are real world scenario. They happen. You can have that mal. Especially on a CRW jump with a CRW canopy.... If you want to know why, feel free to ask.
That is OK, I don't need to ask why horseshoe mals can happen.
QuoteWhat about root cause analysis? I go back to my point that many pull out incidents were because . . . . . people error. The system, if used, maintained, and inspected correctly is perfectly functional.
Human error is the cause of many problems with our equipment. Many throw out system failures are the result of human error.
If we only discuss gear issues when equipment is used, maintained, and inspected correctly, then this will be a very boring forum and not very useful.
People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am
TVPB 0
Absolutely. How else would you beat the Russians? 
Seriously though, obviously continuing CRW on a reserve is not a good/safe idea. A poor attempt on my part to get a personal opinion across. Doh!
I'll chalk that one up to delirium and senility (not thinking clearly when typing)!!! I was attempting to emphasize that ripcords and snag points in general are things that I like to avoid in CRW (main and reserve). A modified Woomera does this quite well. . . . . . For me.
Most modern rigs are more than satisfactory for CRW. I would not suggest at all that the general population rush out and buy a W. The top competitors around the world use modern rigs (I have been using a Jav for the last 5 years myself). My only point is that the W has relevance and is perfectly functional.
My thinking was around lower airspeed extraction forces with shorter bridles and burble interference versus higher airspeed CRW canopy deployments on mains. I would prefer to have to relocate the "floating pud (pullout)" rather than have a pilot chute in tow (throwout). I am a strong lad who would have more chance of overcoming a hard pull than trying to deploy a p/c in tow as my strength is much greater than my flexibility. Some CRW canopies open too hard at/near terminal. Some people prefer reserve deployments over terminal main deployments. A p/c in tow is a complication in this decision process. Sometimes knowing that your container is fully closed before deploying a reserve is comforting. Anyway - my kids are distracting me whilst I am writing this post so it is likely to be full of crap. If it is, I am sure I'll be corrected.
I agree. It is usually the "improper occasions" where incidents occur.
Seriously though, obviously continuing CRW on a reserve is not a good/safe idea. A poor attempt on my part to get a personal opinion across. Doh!
I'll chalk that one up to delirium and senility (not thinking clearly when typing)!!! I was attempting to emphasize that ripcords and snag points in general are things that I like to avoid in CRW (main and reserve). A modified Woomera does this quite well. . . . . . For me.
Most modern rigs are more than satisfactory for CRW. I would not suggest at all that the general population rush out and buy a W. The top competitors around the world use modern rigs (I have been using a Jav for the last 5 years myself). My only point is that the W has relevance and is perfectly functional.
Quoter.e. the loop tension thing from sundevil777
My thinking was around lower airspeed extraction forces with shorter bridles and burble interference versus higher airspeed CRW canopy deployments on mains. I would prefer to have to relocate the "floating pud (pullout)" rather than have a pilot chute in tow (throwout). I am a strong lad who would have more chance of overcoming a hard pull than trying to deploy a p/c in tow as my strength is much greater than my flexibility. Some CRW canopies open too hard at/near terminal. Some people prefer reserve deployments over terminal main deployments. A p/c in tow is a complication in this decision process. Sometimes knowing that your container is fully closed before deploying a reserve is comforting. Anyway - my kids are distracting me whilst I am writing this post so it is likely to be full of crap. If it is, I am sure I'll be corrected.
QuoteIf we only discuss gear issues when equipment is used, maintained, and inspected correctly, then this will be a very boring forum and not very useful.
I agree. It is usually the "improper occasions" where incidents occur.
Stay Safe - Have Fun - Good Luck
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
The above could be crap, thought provoking, useful, or . . But not personal. You decide.
kleggo 145
Quote>You know, build a quad in 15 secs and then do 15 to 20 rotations or 8
>to 12 sequ manouvres. i.e. no time to stash crap in jumpsuits and create
>extra snag points.
Are you really suggesting that ripcords are a bad idea on CRW because after a reserve deployment, it takes some time to stash the ripcord before you can get back to rotations?
_________________________________________________
in my casual reading of the posts in this thread, i gathered that Tom was making an "absurd" point when saying that it was possible to use a MAIN ripcord handle, but we would not choose to do so due to the.......... " interesting time managment requirements during a good rotation dive.
how's that for one long sentence?
it would have been even longer if i remembered the Latin phrase the goes something like (reducto ad absurdum), meaning to make a point by reducing it to the absurd.
be safe
kleggo
1. Do you think your chances are better firing a spring loaded pilot chute or a hand-deploy, if unstable, and still get your reserve out?
2. From the pics, basically, it looks like they're using what amounts to a "pull out" system to hand-deploy the pilot chute on that that Woomera reserve/container system... ever hear any thing about what can go wrong on a "pull out" system on a main when the pud gets knocked loose, but the pin is still in place? Now don't take that as me bangin' on pull-outs on mains, everything has its Pro's and Con's, I'm just saying do you want to deal with the Con's of a pull-out on your Reserve?
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