dzjohn 0 #1 January 14, 2006 Just wanting any info on a aad called fxc as i'm looking at a rig with one, Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wrightskyguy 1 #2 January 14, 2006 ***Nice try. John Wright World's most beloved skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dzjohn 0 #3 January 14, 2006 What do you mean nice try,???????? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #4 January 14, 2006 It's a mechanically-operated AAD, only really used on student rigs these days. It's got quite a high variation in operation range, making it unsuitable for most sport jumpers. This is assuming it's an FXC12000. Use the Search Posts link near the top of the page; there's a lot of info in the forum archives. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dzjohn 0 #5 January 14, 2006 Thanks for that had a look there is some good info there,Probably get it then upgrade to a cypres 2 when I can afford it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #6 January 14, 2006 FXC makes two varieties of AAD for the sport market. The FXC 12000 is a mechanical (no batteries) ripcord puller, available used for not much more than the cost of shipping, but with high maintenance costs: about $125 every two years for a factory visit, plus the cost of chamber-testing at each repack (nearly $40 at one west coast facility). That makes it more expensive to use than a Cypres. You must have an open canopy by at least 2500 feet or you risk a two-out situation. FXC also makes the Astra electronic AAD, also-ran competition for Cypres. it's better than a 12000. Sorry, I'm having trouble saying more about it. This classified ad mentions an "FXC Sentinel" AAD. There's no such thing, and it probably refers to an SSE Sentinel. You might want a Sentinel for your skydiving museum, but parts and service are hard to some by. IIRC, the firing cartridge has a 2-year shelf life from the date of manufacture, so it's almost impossible to find a supplier who turns over stock fast enough to get you a fresh one. Plus you need to find a rigger familiar with it so you can get your rig repacked -- and there aren't many of us left. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #7 January 14, 2006 Quote What do you mean nice try,???????? Could be a troll. Or not, do a search. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #8 January 14, 2006 Thats really helpful, read his few previous posts... it would appear that no he isnt a troll, and that he was simply asking for information on a piece of gear he is not familiar with... Shimmel and Bob, good on you for not taking this time to insult someone and call them a troll and that you pointed him in the direction to become educated.... The being accused and called a troll posts are exactly why some people feel they cant ask questions in regards to skydiving, gear , and safety. Its nice that there are people like Marks around to appease us new skydivers and help us become educated.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #9 January 14, 2006 Thanks. By the way, mark is not marks. Two easy ways to tell: mark can spell, and marks is too cheap to fork out for Premier Membership . Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #10 January 14, 2006 QuoteBy the way, mark is not marks. Two easy ways to tell: mark can spell, and marks is too cheap to fork out for Premiere membership I think I have made that mistake often my bad I cant be held accountable I barely pay attention to detail Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
marks 0 #11 January 14, 2006 ive had premier membership, it just expired. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darkwing 5 #12 January 14, 2006 In my world fxc's are unwelcome. I don't trust them, and wouldn't recommend one to anyone. If you want an AAD get a real one... cypres or vigil. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #13 January 14, 2006 That's interesting. I've used them as a student. I've used PPKU/KAP too ;). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites skydiverek 63 #14 January 14, 2006 QuoteIn my world fxc's are unwelcome. I don't trust them, and wouldn't recommend one to anyone. If you want an AAD get a real one... cypres or vigil. There was a fatality in the U.S. in 2004, where Astra did NOT fire, althouh it WAS turned on prior to exiting the aircraft (Astra has the LED indicator next to the mud flap, and it was confirmed by other jumpers that the light was in the "On" mode in the airlane). It was still in the "On" mode on the ground, after the person bounced ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoop 0 #15 January 14, 2006 I find this quite interesting as Id sooner rely on a mechanical component than an electronic one. Maybe thats because I have an engineering brain as opposed to modern gadgety electronic one. I sent an email to the manufacturesrs and they told me their tests had the FXC12000 accurate to within 100 feet or thereabouts. Ive deleted the email now like an idiot. Im in the market for an AAD at the moment and although bulky and perhaps old school I quite like the idea of it being mechanical. Damn cheap too! Where has all the bad press come from. Is it justified or just because its not 'cool' or enough of a gadget to be loved? Genuinely interested Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mark 107 #16 January 14, 2006 QuoteI sent an email to the manufacturer and they told me their tests had the FXC 12000 accurate to within 100 feet or thereabouts. The indicator window on the control unit is marked with a red zone below 1000 feet (no accurate adjustment possible), and with tick marks every 500 feet from 1000 to 4000. Spacing of the tick marks combined with parallax make it difficult for a user to accurately set the firing altitude any closer than a couple hundred feet. Unless you are jumping in the factory test chamber, the accuracy they report is not useful information. The accuracy standard for the repack chamber test is + 300 feet. If the firing altitude is set for 1000 feet, the unit may fire as low as 700 feet and still be within acceptable calibration. The warning sticker on the side of the control unit says you must have an open canopy at least 1500 feet above the unit pre-set altitude. If you set the indicated firing altitude at 1000 feet then the possible firing range is from 700 feet to 2500 feet. I hope that your local FXC test chamber is better than the $5000 chamber FXC sells. Their chamber includes an aircraft Vertical Speed Indicator, for which there are no FAA calibration standards. With an electronic AAD, you can have some confidence that estimated vertical speed is derived mathematically from changing pressure (indicated altitude) measurements rather than from an uncalibrateable (is that a word?) instrument. Some riggers use a plastic bag instead of a test chamber. They wrap the bag around the control unit, then squash the bag. The rapid increase in pressure simulates a rapid descent. Unfortunately, the pressure inside the bag before it's squashed is surface pressure, so all the test does is show the unit will fire at impact. Installation of a pin-puller type AAD requires some attention to detail. Installing the puller eye too close to the ripcord pin means that the puller may not retract the pin, either because there is not much energy left in the spring at the end of it's stroke, or because there's still slack in the puller cable at the end of the stroke. Installing too far away means a chance of accidental deployment without an actual pull. Since most rigs are set up only for Cypres/Vigil, installation of an FXC 12000 requires extra expense for firing spring unit pocket, hose/cable channels, ripcord and puller cable clamp mount, and control unit mount. Putting a puller eye around a ripcord pin lifts the pin away from the grommet and flap, making the pin more susceptible to an accidental pull from rubbing the cover flap on part of the aircraft in the course of normal movement in the aircraft. Finally, packing with a large FXC box in the reserve container requires some adjustments to regular packing technique to even out the bulk. For example, with manufacturers' permission you can pack the lines into just the right half of the line-stow pocket on the freebag. What does your rigger think about that? Buy a Cypres or Vigil. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Scoop 0 #17 January 14, 2006 Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. Was very helpful. QuoteWhat does your rigger think about that? Buy a Cypres or Vigil. Thats pretty much what they said too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tbrown 26 #18 January 14, 2006 This classified ad mentions an "FXC Sentinel" AAD. There's no such thing, and it probably refers to an SSE Sentinel. You might want a Sentinel for your skydiving museum, but parts and service are hard to some by. IIRC, the firing cartridge has a 2-year shelf life from the date of manufacture, so it's almost impossible to find a supplier who turns over stock fast enough to get you a fresh one. Plus you need to find a rigger familiar with it so you can get your rig repacked -- and there aren't many of us left. I remember using Sentinels in my student days and I know of one Sentinel save of a student who simply didn't pull anything. But another problem with Sentinels is that they have to be recalibrated before EVERY jump, a procedure that involves popping the swithch out and turning it this way & that while a bunch of lights go on & off, which most people found very confusing. I also know of a fatality at the same DZ caused by a Sentinel firing at 3 grand, but in all fairness the guy using it admitted to calibrating it in the plane after takeoff. They're simply not an up to date AAD. If I had to choose between a Sentinel or a FXC I'd take the FXC. Better yet, get a Cypres or a Vigil. There are plenty of used Cypres 1's on the second hand market that are in good condition and have several good years left on them and they are priced quite reasonably. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darkwing 5 #12 January 14, 2006 In my world fxc's are unwelcome. I don't trust them, and wouldn't recommend one to anyone. If you want an AAD get a real one... cypres or vigil. -- Jeff My Skydiving History Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #13 January 14, 2006 That's interesting. I've used them as a student. I've used PPKU/KAP too ;). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #14 January 14, 2006 QuoteIn my world fxc's are unwelcome. I don't trust them, and wouldn't recommend one to anyone. If you want an AAD get a real one... cypres or vigil. There was a fatality in the U.S. in 2004, where Astra did NOT fire, althouh it WAS turned on prior to exiting the aircraft (Astra has the LED indicator next to the mud flap, and it was confirmed by other jumpers that the light was in the "On" mode in the airlane). It was still in the "On" mode on the ground, after the person bounced ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #15 January 14, 2006 I find this quite interesting as Id sooner rely on a mechanical component than an electronic one. Maybe thats because I have an engineering brain as opposed to modern gadgety electronic one. I sent an email to the manufacturesrs and they told me their tests had the FXC12000 accurate to within 100 feet or thereabouts. Ive deleted the email now like an idiot. Im in the market for an AAD at the moment and although bulky and perhaps old school I quite like the idea of it being mechanical. Damn cheap too! Where has all the bad press come from. Is it justified or just because its not 'cool' or enough of a gadget to be loved? Genuinely interested Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #16 January 14, 2006 QuoteI sent an email to the manufacturer and they told me their tests had the FXC 12000 accurate to within 100 feet or thereabouts. The indicator window on the control unit is marked with a red zone below 1000 feet (no accurate adjustment possible), and with tick marks every 500 feet from 1000 to 4000. Spacing of the tick marks combined with parallax make it difficult for a user to accurately set the firing altitude any closer than a couple hundred feet. Unless you are jumping in the factory test chamber, the accuracy they report is not useful information. The accuracy standard for the repack chamber test is + 300 feet. If the firing altitude is set for 1000 feet, the unit may fire as low as 700 feet and still be within acceptable calibration. The warning sticker on the side of the control unit says you must have an open canopy at least 1500 feet above the unit pre-set altitude. If you set the indicated firing altitude at 1000 feet then the possible firing range is from 700 feet to 2500 feet. I hope that your local FXC test chamber is better than the $5000 chamber FXC sells. Their chamber includes an aircraft Vertical Speed Indicator, for which there are no FAA calibration standards. With an electronic AAD, you can have some confidence that estimated vertical speed is derived mathematically from changing pressure (indicated altitude) measurements rather than from an uncalibrateable (is that a word?) instrument. Some riggers use a plastic bag instead of a test chamber. They wrap the bag around the control unit, then squash the bag. The rapid increase in pressure simulates a rapid descent. Unfortunately, the pressure inside the bag before it's squashed is surface pressure, so all the test does is show the unit will fire at impact. Installation of a pin-puller type AAD requires some attention to detail. Installing the puller eye too close to the ripcord pin means that the puller may not retract the pin, either because there is not much energy left in the spring at the end of it's stroke, or because there's still slack in the puller cable at the end of the stroke. Installing too far away means a chance of accidental deployment without an actual pull. Since most rigs are set up only for Cypres/Vigil, installation of an FXC 12000 requires extra expense for firing spring unit pocket, hose/cable channels, ripcord and puller cable clamp mount, and control unit mount. Putting a puller eye around a ripcord pin lifts the pin away from the grommet and flap, making the pin more susceptible to an accidental pull from rubbing the cover flap on part of the aircraft in the course of normal movement in the aircraft. Finally, packing with a large FXC box in the reserve container requires some adjustments to regular packing technique to even out the bulk. For example, with manufacturers' permission you can pack the lines into just the right half of the line-stow pocket on the freebag. What does your rigger think about that? Buy a Cypres or Vigil. Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #17 January 14, 2006 Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. Was very helpful. QuoteWhat does your rigger think about that? Buy a Cypres or Vigil. Thats pretty much what they said too. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tbrown 26 #18 January 14, 2006 This classified ad mentions an "FXC Sentinel" AAD. There's no such thing, and it probably refers to an SSE Sentinel. You might want a Sentinel for your skydiving museum, but parts and service are hard to some by. IIRC, the firing cartridge has a 2-year shelf life from the date of manufacture, so it's almost impossible to find a supplier who turns over stock fast enough to get you a fresh one. Plus you need to find a rigger familiar with it so you can get your rig repacked -- and there aren't many of us left. I remember using Sentinels in my student days and I know of one Sentinel save of a student who simply didn't pull anything. But another problem with Sentinels is that they have to be recalibrated before EVERY jump, a procedure that involves popping the swithch out and turning it this way & that while a bunch of lights go on & off, which most people found very confusing. I also know of a fatality at the same DZ caused by a Sentinel firing at 3 grand, but in all fairness the guy using it admitted to calibrating it in the plane after takeoff. They're simply not an up to date AAD. If I had to choose between a Sentinel or a FXC I'd take the FXC. Better yet, get a Cypres or a Vigil. There are plenty of used Cypres 1's on the second hand market that are in good condition and have several good years left on them and they are priced quite reasonably. Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity ! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tombuch 0 #19 January 14, 2006 Quote But another problem with Sentinels is that they have to be recalibrated before EVERY jump, a procedure that involves popping the swithch out and turning it this way & that while a bunch of lights go on & off, which most people found very confusing. I also know of a fatality at the same DZ caused by a Sentinel firing at 3 grand, but in all fairness the guy using it admitted to calibrating it in the plane after takeoff. They're simply not an up to date AAD. It is my understanding that the Sentinel was removed from the market many, many years ago and is no longer supported at all. It did have a maintenance requirement, but that service is no longer available. Based on that, it won't comply with 105.43 (c). As for the FXC 1200 vs. a computer issue, I'd go for the Cypres. The Cypres has an algorithm that calulates altitude, descent rate, and speed, and won't fire the unit even unless within all parameters. the FXC just looks for altitude and descent rate, so it's possible to be in a burble at a higher altitude and generate a fire when it shouldn't happen. That threat really bothers me. With that said, I'm very comfortable trusting the FXC 12000 to protect a student who doesn't do RW with people that might be above him, as long as it meets the manufacturers test and maintenance cycles. Sadly, at least some DZ's never chamber test, and some don't even meet the inspection requirement. .Tom Buchanan Instructor Emeritus Comm Pilot MSEL,G Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tso-d_chris 0 #20 January 16, 2006 QuoteQuoteIn my world fxc's are unwelcome. I don't trust them, and wouldn't recommend one to anyone. If you want an AAD get a real one... cypres or vigil. There was a fatality in the U.S. in 2004, where Astra did NOT fire, althouh it WAS turned on prior to exiting the aircraft (Astra has the LED indicator next to the mud flap, and it was confirmed by other jumpers that the light was in the "On" mode in the airlane). It was still in the "On" mode on the ground, after the person bounced ... Link? For Great Deals on Gear Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #21 January 16, 2006 I was unable to find a link, but this fatality was discussed at the last PIA symposium by Jim Crouch (from USPA), during his "2004 Fatality Summary" seminar. He confirmed it WAS an Astra and that it WAS turned on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 63 #22 January 16, 2006 I found the information on skydivingfatalities.info : "Date Location Category Age # Jumps AAD?/RSL? 10/16/2004 Skydown Sport Skydiving, ID NOP?/DMAL? 51 28 Y/Y Description: Jumper impacted without deploying either parachute. Lessons: USPA Description: This jumper exited the airplane at 13,500 feet for a solo skydive, his third jump since transitioning from a ripcord-activated main parachute to a bottom-of-container-mounted throw-out pilot chute. He planned to deploy at 6,000 feet and use the time under canopy to work on riser-turn exercises toward his USPA A-license requirements. None of the other jumpers on the load saw this jumper under canopy. After a short search, he was found lying face down with neither parachute deployed. USPA Conclusions:The jumper had received a thorough gear check both before boarding and then before exiting the airplane, and it was confirmed that the AAD was on at the time he exited the airplane. Investigators on the accident scene also determined that the automatic activation device was still armed and activated properly in preparation for jumping. The AAD was sent to the manufacturer for testing. The manufacturer reported that the AAD functioned properly during testing. The deceased jumper was found with his main pilot chute out of the BOC pouch, but it was apparently dislodged on impact. The cutaway handle and reserve ripcord were both in place. No definitive reason has been discovered for this fatality. Ultimately, all jumpers must deploy a parachute with enough altitude to allow for a safe landing." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #23 January 16, 2006 Think about maintenance before you buy an AAD. Sentinels are so old that no-one remembers how to inspect and overhaul them. FXCs need to be run through a test chamber at every repack. So if your local rigger does not have a test chamber, don't buy an FXC 12000. FXC Astra's never sold very well, so few riggers are familiar with them. EVERY rigger is familiar with Cypres. Vigil maintenance is "close" to Cypres maintenance, so any rigger who can read a manual can maintain a Vigil. In the end, it comes down to a choice between modern electronic AADs. Cypres or Vigil? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #24 January 17, 2006 QuoteNo definitive reason has been discovered for this fatality Failure to deploy a landable canopy. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tr027 0 #25 January 17, 2006 QuoteQuoteNo definitive reason has been discovered for this fatality Failure to deploy a landable canopy. Sparky Excellent point. An aad is a backup device, which shouldn't be relied upon. I have an Astra and love it, but don't think I will be testing it on skydives anytime soon. The manufacturer tested (fired it in a barometric chamber) it last year when it was in for an update, and that is good enough for me."The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
