Why is it that kids

[Squeak 17]

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Which part do you disagree with?

all of it

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[DougH 270]

The part where there is a pecking order with between a 15 year old teen and a 12 year old boy.

If it was my kid, and I have none, I would kick his parents ass just to restablish the "pecking order" and to punish them for raising such a lousy little shit for a kid, because that is a load a crap.

"The restraining order says you're only allowed to touch me in freefall"
=P

[sartre 0]

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I hate to say it, but this won't stop until your son just gets down and beats this kid's ass. Then, it will stop immediately and permanently.

Middle school boys don't fight for fun. They fight to establish a pecking order. The fact that this 16 year old kid is trying to prove dominance over a 12 year old means that he's already at the absolute bottom of the 16 year olds, and the 15 year olds, and the 14 year olds, and there's probably a 13 year old that kicked his worthless ass too. If your son had simply busted him in the chops, he'd go find an 11 year old to bother.

Going to the law instead puts the kid in the pecking order above your son. That's NOT where you want him to be.

Win, lose, or draw, a clean, public fight ends these things. Permanently.

So you think your solution of having the bully go pick on an 11 year old is preferable to teaching him that if he doesn't cease all bullying his ass will be thrown in jail?

That doesn't end this thing permanently, it merely redirects the problem to someone else's kid.

[billeisele 130]

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I hate to say it, but this won't stop until your son just gets down and beats this kid's ass. Then, it will stop immediately and permanently.

Middle school boys don't fight for fun. They fight to establish a pecking order. The fact that this 16 year old kid is trying to prove dominance over a 12 year old means that he's already at the absolute bottom of the 16 year olds, and the 15 year olds, and the 14 year olds, and there's probably a 13 year old that kicked his worthless ass too. If your son had simply busted him in the chops, he'd go find an 11 year old to bother.

Going to the law instead puts the kid in the pecking order above your son. That's NOT where you want him to be.

Win, lose, or draw, a clean, public fight ends these things. Permanently.

So you think your solution of having the bully go pick on an 11 year old is preferable to teaching him that if he doesn't cease all bullying his ass will be thrown in jail?

That doesn't end this thing permanently, it merely redirects the problem to someone else's kid.

the real problem is this kid learned about violence from someone else, mostly likely at home, he was/is being beat at home

Give one city to the thugs so they can all live together. I vote for Chicago where they have strict gun laws.

[sartre 0]

All the more reason to get the authorities involved.

We can't change what did or didn't happen to this kid in the past, but hopefully how he chooses to behave from here on out can be addressed. By some other method than steering him towards the next victim.

[Squeak 17]

Bullshit is so much easier to type, and i have oft found that people with those sorts of view do not under any circumstance want a rational discussion about it.
So
BULLSHIT is more succinct

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

Ummmm, did you read the whole thread?

Your analyzes is way off. Do you have kids?

Going to the law, where both of these kids are HABITUAL offenders stops this once and for all by taking these kids out of their bad home life and teaching them how to live like an upstanding citizens. Because the road they are on now both will be spending time in jail at some point in their adult life.

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[-Scatter- 0]

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The part where there is a pecking order with between a 15 year old teen and a 12 year old boy.

If it was my kid, and I have none, I would kick his parents ass just to restablish the "pecking order" and to punish them for raising such a lousy little shit for a kid, because that is a load a crap.

Wow. Nice can of worms I opened up here.

In the 12 year old's world, no there's no pecking order. Look at it from the point of view of the 15 year old. The kid has probably been abused at home. Like was said, he's a small, angry 15 year old. if he could find a peer to victimize, then he would be doing to, because that would make him feel better about himself than beating on a 12 year old.

If he felt like he'd lost the interchange by having police intervention, he wouldn't be hanging around your house. If his dysfunctional family felt like he'd lost the interchange they wouldn't now be harassing other family members - they'd be ashamed and shut up. Clearly they don't.

Kicking the parents' asses might work too, if they were around. Realistically it'd just make for more beatings for the 15 year old, reinforcing the view in his head that it is acceptable to abuse the weaker and smaller. Gratifying thought, though.

[-Scatter- 0]

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Ummmm, did you read the whole thread?

Your analyzes is way off. Do you have kids?

Going to the law, where both of these kids are HABITUAL offenders stops this once and for all by taking these kids out of their bad home life and teaching them how to live like an upstanding citizens. Because the road they are on now both will be spending time in jail at some point in their adult life.

Bobbi

I did read the whole thread. I don't have kids. Were you ever a middle school boy? I was the scrawny way-too-smart one that just changed schools at the beginning of middle school and knew no one. I've been in this situation. Repeatedly. Within a year and a half it had stopped entirely, because I was willing to fight back. Did I win every fight? God no. Did I start ANY of them? Nope. Did I try ignoring and reporting it first? Of course.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the road both these kids are on. At all. But, they're not the only two kids with abusive home lives who bully people who won't fight back in the town.

[sartre 0]

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Ummmm, did you read the whole thread?

Your analyzes is way off. Do you have kids?

Going to the law, where both of these kids are HABITUAL offenders stops this once and for all by taking these kids out of their bad home life and teaching them how to live like an upstanding citizens. Because the road they are on now both will be spending time in jail at some point in their adult life.

Bobbi

I did read the whole thread. I don't have kids. Were you ever a middle school boy? I was the scrawny way-too-smart one that just changed schools at the beginning of middle school and knew no one. I've been in this situation. Repeatedly. Within a year and a half it had stopped entirely, because I was willing to fight back. Did I win every fight? God no. Did I start ANY of them? Nope. Did I try ignoring and reporting it first? Of course.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the road both these kids are on. At all. But, they're not the only two kids with abusive home lives who bully people who won't fight back in the town.

I don't understand your point. So, they're not the only two kids who are bullies......what does this have to do with this situation? Or with what you said in your earlier post?

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

So basically my kid should beat the shit out of the other kid in hopes that the other kid (bully) will learn his lesson. I think that theory is a long shot and that in doing so it would just add fuel to the fire. Nope, I'd rather go one better and get the law involved and nip it in the bud.

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[Squeak 17]

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I did read the whole thread. I don't have kids. Were you ever a middle school boy? I was the scrawny way-too-smart one that just changed schools at the beginning of middle school and knew no one. I've been in this situation. Repeatedly. Within a year and a half it had stopped entirely, because I was willing to fight back. Did I win every fight? God no. Did I start ANY of them? Nope. Did I try ignoring and reporting it first? Of course.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the road both these kids are on. At all. But, they're not the only two kids with abusive home lives who bully people who won't fight back in the town.

Is your real name BOBBY BRADY

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[-Scatter- 0]

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So basically my kid should beat the shit out of the other kid in hopes that the other kid (bully) will learn his lesson. I think that theory is a long shot and that in doing so it would just add fuel to the fire. Nope, I'd rather go one better and get the law involved and nip it in the bud.

Bobbi

That's precisely my take on it, yes. Your kid should beat the shit out of the (primary) bully. The lesson is "picking on this kid may get me hurt." That's a lesson he can learn in a very short period of time. I'm either cynical or realistic, but I have little hope for him learning "I should be a productive and respectful member of society" in time for it to do YOUR son any good.

Beating the bully is not escalation. Its responding in kind, in terms he understands well. Like you said, going to the police is "going one better" i.e. escalation. We're completely agreed on this point at least.

What started out as an issue between one child and one worthless punk now involves one child, one worthless punk, two parents, a grandmother, a brother, a school bus driver and some indeterminate number of law enforcement. At least. A fire that could have been stomped out somehow got... bigger. Surely you agree some fuel was added.

Now, if your kid was smaller, weaker, or otherwise not likely to stand a chance in a fight, then what you're doing makes sense. But, you've got to realize that "My child is weak and afraid" is exactly the message you're sending. To the bully who is now hanging around waiting, and to any other bullies looking for a convenient new victim.

But, he's not my kid. I'm not saying your course of action is wrong. You obviously care a lot about your son, much much more than anyone cares about the little POS 15 year old. I just don't think its going to be the optimal solution.

[popsjumper 2]

Bobbi, I'm sorry but if you think the law is going to resolve the problem on the long-term basis, you're not facing reality. Puttin' the kid away will not "make him see the light", so to speak. That is so very rare that a little exposure to "the law" straightens a kid out. Much more likely is that he will learn and exhibit much worse behaviors. He's already shown that by "hangin' around your house" to the point of your SO having to go talk with his guardians.

My son went through a similar situation in 6th grade with an 8th grade bully. It took a good ass-whippin' to get the kid off his back. The 3-day suspension was well worth it. I was really proud of him for trying alternative means first. When that failed he was left with little to no other option than simply kickin' the kids ass. Problem immediately solved.

Mama was upset that he got into a fight. Dad is the one who went to the school to object to his being suspended for defending himself. I told the principal, "He is to be commended for defending himself and I will always support him for that. Suspended? So be it."

I took 3 days off to sepnd some quality time with him while he was out.

When I was in middle school the same thing happened. It took a physical response to stop the crap. Funny thing was, after I kicked the kids ass, several others saw that it could really be done and kicked his ass, too. His saanding in the pecking order went wsaaaaaaay down after that.



The short answer: The probability of the ass-kickin' working better in the long run is much higher than "law" trouble.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

Sorry if you both think I am wrong, but my son doesn't want to miss school. I totally agree that my son should have been able to fight back without getting into trouble but the school system these days says that both kids will be suspended. When these kids are suspended, they CAN NOT make up the work that they miss, which in turn makes their grades drop. My son has worked his ass off this year trying to keep his nose to the grind stone and make good grades and stay clear of trouble. In Elementary school he knew the principal on a first name basis, he is trying to make a clean and fresh start in Middle School, something that I am all for. Our take on this is that my son was the flavor of the month, if it wasn't him it would be someone else. We are taking it to a higher level in hopes that the kid will get the help he needs and the parents will get a good chewing out by the court system. We told our son that the neighborhood is fair game. If he should come across these two boys during the weekend, evenings, etc he has our permission to beat their asses. But when it comes to school, before, during, or after, it needs to be taken care of by the school rules, which states tell an adult.

My hope is in the court system and that we will see "justice". My kid has talked about going into law enforcement now for two years via first the Army. I am hoping that the court system comes thru for us. Bullying is turning into a BIG no-no country wide. I am hoping that going to court will open up these parents eyes and having their kids charged with a crime should wake them up a bit. I KNOW for a fact that no one has gone this far with these two kids, everyone has backed down and just stayed away from them, basically wiping them under the rug. Well NOT me!!!

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[Squeak 17]

Bobbie you do not have to justify your actions to some tossers on the internet.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

I appreciate that Squeak, but I like to let people know where I am coming from. Besides, the post pissed me off just a little.

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[piratemike 0]

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So basically my kid should beat the shit out of the other kid in hopes that the other kid (bully) will learn his lesson. I think that theory is a long shot and that in doing so it would just add fuel to the fire. Nope, I'd rather go one better and get the law involved and nip it in the bud.

Bobbi

you kid busting out some personal defense moves and putting the bully in his place would take care of the problem.
The school might suspend him(your kid) for a while, but there are pretty much no repercussions past that. beating the crap out of the bully would increase your kids quality of life. Bringing in law enforcement will only serve to get the bully(and his friends) to pester you kid.

So, respectfully, I think getting law enforcement doesn't nip this in the bud at all. :)

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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you kid busting out some personal defense moves and putting the bully in his place would take care of the problem.
The school might suspend him(your kid) for a while, but there are pretty much no repercussions past that. beating the crap out of the bully would increase your kids quality of life. Bringing in law enforcement will only serve to get the bully(and his friends) to pester you kid.

That makes sense, turn the victum into the agressor... this theory of yours makes no sense. Battered women do not go to shelters and get told, beat your husband up and he will stop hitting you.

These days bringing in law enforcement does quite a bit, children can be responsible for thier own actions as young as 10 years old and that can land them in jail, also now that its known the school must protect her son from those kids even if it means expelling them.

Bobby your a smart mom follow your gut and continue to guide your boys the way you have.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[futuredivot 0]

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Battered women do not go to shelters and get told, beat your husband up and he will stop hitting you.

Hello Apple, meet Orange.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[piratemike 0]

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That makes sense, turn the victum into the agressor... this theory of yours makes no sense. Battered women do not go to shelters and get told, beat your husband up and he will stop hitting you.

Comparing the schoolyard to a battered woman situation doesn't make sense. Mostly because there is no group dynamic.

[SkydiveStMarys 0]

I do understand the term "man up". But in these two situations, I think it would drag it out. They will have a long time to think about whether or not its "worth it" to lay their hands on another human when they get taken out of their home and placed in Juvie and get the counseling that they need. My son has been in fights before he can hold is own. This time its different. In the one situation the kid is 16, my son is 12. Not cool, not cool at all. The 16 yr old needs to learn that after a certain age its different. You can't go around laying your hands on other people and not expect to have the law called in. You would wouldn't you? If someone touched your things or punched you? Or would you take it out to the front lawn? Either way I am sure the cops would be called and it would be straightened out in a court of law.

Bobbi

A miracle is not defined by an event. A miracle is defined by gratitude.

[happythoughts 0]

After things get finalized in court, take out a restraining order.

First, it costs them another $1000 in attorney fees and almost nothing to you but some free time.
It becomes apparent, in a subtle manner, that you can make their life very expensive from here on out.

Have the judge explain that if the kid messes with you, or even speaks to you, you make a phone call and life sucks for him. Put that power in your hands. Have the kid worry about you.

Next, it is additional legal documentation. You want to nail down your legal position so that if anything ever comes up, you have another document.

It lets the kid know that the cops like you, they don't like him, and the cops won't believe him.

In a confrontational situation, of any type, you will then have carte blanche for your actions.

[piratemike 0]

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I do understand the term "man up". But in these two situations, I think it would drag it out. They will have a long time to think about whether or not its "worth it" to lay their hands on another human when they get taken out of their home and placed in Juvie and get the counseling that they need. My son has been in fights before he can hold is own. This time its different. In the one situation the kid is 16, my son is 12. Not cool, not cool at all. The 16 yr old needs to learn that after a certain age its different. You can't go around laying your hands on other people and not expect to have the law called in. You would wouldn't you? If someone touched your things or punched you? Or would you take it out to the front lawn? Either way I am sure the cops would be called and it would be straightened out in a court of law.

Bobbi

Humm, what a bummer of a situation you've got to handle here. Your right though, your best bet here would be to involve the school administration/cops.

I sincerely hope it works out for you and your kid. It sounds like he's got a good mother to help watch out for him.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Comparing the schoolyard to a battered woman situation doesn't make sense. Mostly because there is no group dynamic

Sure there are, both have an abuser and both have a victim, both have similar patterns in thier behaviours.

An abusive man - picks on someone they percieve as weaker them them. Uses that dominance to feel better about themselves.

A bully - Picks on someone they percieve as weaker then them, or picks on someone they are jealous of because of things they lack in themselves that the victim has (often intelligence). Uses the dominance to make themselves feel better.

seems that the dynamics to me are similar.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this