peek 21 #1 April 3, 2010 We knew it was going to be windy, and we knew the winds were going to increase. Two Otter loads went with little trouble, then it got windier, and a number of us said "not now". Next load, winds pick up after the load launched, but not enough to cause alarm and call the load down or anything. It was marginal, but they were all big boys and big girls and could decide for themselves. Result? One destroyed jumpsuit. The owner saved his rig by sacrificing his suit. Only a few superficial scrapes to the rig. One rig that will need a patch on the lower part of the reserve container. Reserve is probably OK, reserve bag may need a patch. Possible sprained ankle. One rig that has been boxed up and will be sent to the manufacturer because the reserve container and reserve risers have been damaged. Only one person on the load cutaway on landing. Why? What are we not teaching people to give them confidence that this can save them in a tight spot? Why would 3 people land anywhere near a runway where they could get drug across it? When there is a wide open airport? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #2 April 3, 2010 QuoteWe knew it was going to be windy, and we knew the winds were going to increase. Two Otter loads went with little trouble, then it got windier, and a number of us said "not now". Next load, winds pick up after the load launched, but not enough to cause alarm and call the load down or anything. It was marginal, but they were all big boys and big girls and could decide for themselves. Result? One destroyed jumpsuit. The owner saved his rig by sacrificing his suit. Only a few superficial scrapes to the rig. One rig that will need a patch on the lower part of the reserve container. Reserve is probably OK, reserve bag may need a patch. Possible sprained ankle. One rig that has been boxed up and will be sent to the manufacturer because the reserve container and reserve risers have been damaged. Only one person on the load cutaway on landing. Why? What are we not teaching people to give them confidence that this can save them in a tight spot? Why would 3 people land anywhere near a runway where they could get drug across it? When there is a wide open airport? The results listed are certainly not indicative of "marginal" winds. What are you calling marginal, and why, if the winds became marginal after load launched, didn't someone call the pilot to advise him/her of the situation?Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #3 April 3, 2010 QuoteIt was marginal, but they were all big boys and big girls and could decide for themselves. Gary, Let me introduce you to the “entitlement generation”. They are “entitled” to make bad decisions anytime they feel like it. They are “entitled” to make the same mistakes others have made in the past. They are “entitled” to ignore sound advice given by someone who has been there, done that and has the T-shirt. When something goes wrong they are “entitled” to blame someone/something else for their fuck ups. They are “entitled” to demand that there be some electronic gismo available to pull their head out of their ass when their “mad skills” fail them. The world has changed my friend and you are looking at the future leaders of skydiving and society as a whole. Ain’t it grand? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnDeere 0 #4 April 3, 2010 Quote Quote It was marginal, but they were all big boys and big girls and could decide for themselves. Gary, Let me introduce you to the “entitlement generation”. They are “entitled” to make bad decisions anytime they feel like it. They are “entitled” to make the same mistakes others have made in the past. They are “entitled” to ignore sound advice given by someone who has been there, done that and has the T-shirt. When something goes wrong they are “entitled” to blame someone/something else for their fuck ups. They are “entitled” to demand that there be some electronic gismo available to pull their head out of their ass when their “mad skills” fail them. The world has changed my friend and you are looking at the future leaders of skydiving and society as a whole. Ain’t it grand? Sparky Could you point out where Peek said anything about age? Im not part of that generation but you sure seem to have a chip on your shoulder! Bitter much?Nothing opens like a Deere! You ignorant fool! Checks are for workers! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #5 April 3, 2010 Quote Why would 3 people land anywhere near a runway where they could get drug across it? When there is a wide open airport? ...fear of running tooo far downwind in an attempt to 'get past' the obstacle,,( runway), and then not being able to "hold" the intended landing area? fear of catching grief for 'crossing a runway' a too low an altitude...? uncertainty that they will even "get to" the runway..thinking that they will land well 'short' of it ?? most skydivers of the ram Air generation are only vaguely familiar with "backing Up" at landing,,,,and so tend to do something 'not right'... usually,, it is Flaring the parachute, in a normal muscle memory sort of way.... at landing... In back up mode... all that tends to do, is put the canopy BEHIND them where it turns into a huge SAIL,,, and then yanks the jumper off his/her feet.. Often,, NO flare is needed,, and in fact front risering the main, just at touchdown,,, might be the answer,,,If not,, at least a good hard toggle turn with ONE side or the other, can hopefully crank the canopy over,, so that it does not drag the jumper... I don't use an RSL,, but i think it is a good anticipatory move,, to disconnect it, if the rig is so equipped,,,, once the main is open and flying on windy days.... Then IF one does have to cut away the main,, in a drag scenerio,, it CAN be done, quickly and without reservation.... there never a good reason to have your gear all messed up and damaged,,, each jumper is responsible to complete the skydive with themselves AND their gear intact... jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
loudtom 5 #6 April 3, 2010 Sparky it sounds like you are talking about democrats... there ---my fly in the ointment today... hahatom #90 #54 #08 and now #5 with a Bronze :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #7 April 3, 2010 QuoteQuoteIt was marginal, but they were all big boys and big girls and could decide for themselves. Gary, Let me introduce you to the “entitlement generation”. They are “entitled” to make bad decisions anytime they feel like it. They are “entitled” to make the same mistakes others have made in the past. They are “entitled” to ignore sound advice given by someone who has been there, done that and has the T-shirt. When something goes wrong they are “entitled” to blame someone/something else for their fuck ups. They are “entitled” to demand that there be some electronic gismo available to pull their head out of their ass when their “mad skills” fail them. The world has changed my friend and you are looking at the future leaders of skydiving and society as a whole. Ain’t it grand? Sparky Not any different than 20 or 30 years ago. There were people jumping in winds to high, against the advice of senior jumpers, way back in the "old days". Mistake will be repeated no matter what advice is given. It's human nature. It's just that the jumpers that made the mistake of jumping in to high of winds 20 or 30 years ago now feel some kind of superiority and arrogance when the advice they dispense is ignored(Just like they ignored years ago). No entitlement generation, just human. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amstalder 0 #8 April 3, 2010 QuoteThere were people jumping in winds to high, against the advice of senior jumpers, way back in the "old days". Mistake will be repeated no matter what advice is given. It's human nature QuoteNext load, winds pick up after the load launched, but not enough to cause alarm and call the load down or anything. It was marginal, but they were all big boys and big girls and could decide for themselves. But from the sound of it, the jumpers on this load werent exactly given fair warning, unless i misunderstood the above quote. If the wind picked up AFTER I got on the plane, I would want to know... There is nothing wrong with riding the plane down, but you have to know the situation in order to make that call... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #9 April 3, 2010 Quote QuoteThere were people jumping in winds to high, against the advice of senior jumpers, way back in the "old days". Mistake will be repeated no matter what advice is given. It's human nature QuoteNext load, winds pick up after the load launched, but not enough to cause alarm and call the load down or anything. It was marginal, but they were all big boys and big girls and could decide for themselves. But from the sound of it, the jumpers on this load werent exactly given fair warning, unless i misunderstood the above quote. If the wind picked up AFTER I got on the plane, I would want to know... There is nothing wrong with riding the plane down, but you have to know the situation in order to make that call... My comments were not directed at the OP, just mjo's post. Read again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #10 April 3, 2010 Quote Only one person on the load cutaway on landing. Why? What are we not teaching people to give them confidence that this can save them in a tight spot? Gary, I've done this many times myself, but I'm not sure if I was ever specifically taught to. I remember many an argument over whether this was a good idea or not to teach students. The prevailing reason being we didn't want them panicking and cutting away a perfectly good canopy before actually being on the ground because it was windy. When I was a newb, I had seen other up jumpers do it. I learned at Cal City, heck, you learned to deal with winds or you didn't jump. Anyway, I guess asking them why they did that... after a load where maybe I got drug a bit, or sitting around drinking beers when it got TOO windy... I learned some of the finer points of this technique. Like disconnecting one's RSL (if you have one) and not cutting away until you're no-shit on the ground and not like "that guy" that thought he'd be cool landing in high winds and chop his canopy the instant he touched down, misjudged it and chopped at like 30'... two broken ankles... or so the story went. Quote Why would 3 people land anywhere near a runway where they could get drug across it? When there is a wide open airport? Dunno Gary, you didn't provide any additional information as to their experience or if you asked them why afterwards and what they had to say. So, all I can do is speculate that this for them was one of those experiences that may lead to wisdom on their part in the future. Personally, landing near a runway, windy or not, would cause me more worry about getting run over by an airplane and chopped up by that "spinny thing" most have on the front of them or wings. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 273 #11 April 3, 2010 QuoteOften,, NO flare is needed, I'm not so sure about that. Flaring does two things - it slows your descent rate and then (if you finish it) it bleeds off your forward speed. When jumping into high winds you don't have much if any forward speed, but you are still descending. Flaring to the plane out point when you are coming straight down or going backwards will slow/stop that descent rate and keep your ankles and knees from having to absorb the impact. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jimmytavino 16 #12 April 3, 2010 yes... i see your point.... maybe i should have said, 'do a "mini-Flare" instead of saying " No Flare" which would be the equivilent of keeping the toggles up to the keepers.. but for sure a deep FULL flare, can get a jumper in trouble,,, when the ground winds are UP... i wouldn't go to my fronts,,, til that instant,,, when i am ON the ground,, and just before the canopy " gets away from me..." jt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #13 April 4, 2010 Quote when their “mad skills” fail them. Sparky, you misspelled "skillz". Hey, when they get enough scar tissue they may smarten up, same as we did. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #14 April 4, 2010 Quote If the wind picked up AFTER I got on the plane, I would want to know... There is nothing wrong with riding the plane down, but you have to know the situation in order to make that call... I've been on jump planes when exactly that happened but the pilot, not wanting to land in high winds with all those jumpers, kept the info to himself. We all landed backing up in 25-30 mph winds. I cut away immediately on landing but still bonked my head a good one. I still think we need more survival training in this sport. If you jump long enough, you find yourself outside of the safety zone, trying to just survive. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amstalder 0 #15 April 4, 2010 QuoteMy comments were not directed at the OP, just mjo's post. Read again. I got that, I just found it easier to reply to yours because of the actual statement you made in response to sparky.... My question was really directed at everyone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
amstalder 0 #16 April 4, 2010 Quote Quote If the wind picked up AFTER I got on the plane, I would want to know... There is nothing wrong with riding the plane down, but you have to know the situation in order to make that call... I've been on jump planes when exactly that happened but the pilot, not wanting to land in high winds with all those jumpers, kept the info to himself. We all landed backing up in 25-30 mph winds. I cut away immediately on landing but still bonked my head a good one. I still think we need more survival training in this sport. If you jump long enough, you find yourself outside of the safety zone, trying to just survive. Interesting. Ive had a couple of occasions where I didnt feel right on the ride up and rode it down, and its turned out that the wind went ridiculous in that short amount of time. But I really had never considered that the pilot wouldnt tell the jumpers whats going on... Thanks for the honest answer Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #17 April 4, 2010 Quote..Why would 3 people land anywhere near a runway where they could get drug across it? When there is a wide open airport? ...to gain experience, of course! Most people, of the ones that survive anyway, come away from that thinking, "Damn! I ain't gonna do THAT again!."My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #18 April 4, 2010 Quote Why would 3 people land anywhere near a runway where they could get drug across it? When there is a wide open airport? Well clearly the training at that dz is lacking from the top down to the lowly class room handlers. And it's clear we have a disconnect of supervision and guidance from the USPA and its "in field" leaders to the membership. After all one must question why this lack of guidance and instructional support is lacking in so many key areas. How could jumpers at the home dz of their USPA regional director who is also a S&TA display such poor performance on a regular bases that it is reported here regularly by said regional director and S&TA?(relax Gary, don't get your panties in a wad, just yanking your chain)you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,523 #19 April 4, 2010 Quote Quote If the wind picked up AFTER I got on the plane, I would want to know... There is nothing wrong with riding the plane down, but you have to know the situation in order to make that call... I've been on jump planes when exactly that happened but the pilot, not wanting to land in high winds with all those jumpers, kept the info to himself. We all landed backing up in 25-30 mph winds. I cut away immediately on landing but still bonked my head a good one. I still think we need more survival training in this sport. If you jump long enough, you find yourself outside of the safety zone, trying to just survive. Wow. Just wow. Stupid fucker. Really. More weight in the plane makes it more stable in high winds, not less. It pushes the stall speed up a bit, but you're going to want to carry more speed on final anyway to have more margin due to gusts. If he was really worried about the weight, then the plane may have been overloaded, which isn't smart either. As a pilot, I feel responsible to give the jumpers I throw out the safest jump possible. I find it unacceptable (although not all that hard to believe) that a pilot would withhold that kind of info. How would his concience have been had one of those jumpers been hurt on landing in high winds he knew about but didn't tell? Around here we don't get significant wind changes without warning/notice/prediction. One more reason to know and understand weather, and the prediciton of it, especially in your local area. Also a good reason to be looking out of the plane on the way up. Major wind changes usually have clues you can spot from the plane (even at jump altitudes). Dust being kicked up, trees being blown (the leaves will show a different color), smoke columns going from vertical to near horizontal are just a few examples."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #20 April 4, 2010 Quote Dust being kicked up, trees being blown over (the roots will show a different color) Fixed it for ya.It was a DC-3 load. I was just another dummy in the lineup.Being a former round jumper I wasn't too freaked out about going backwards. Just wasn't real happy about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #21 April 4, 2010 Hold on to the toggles when doing this, then you won't have to untangle it (Got that T-shirt) Quote I don't use an RSL,, but i think it is a good anticipatory move,, to disconnect it, if the rig is so equipped,,,, once the main is open and flying on windy days.... Then IF one does have to cut away the main,, in a drag scenerio,, it CAN be done, quickly and without reservation.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jsaxton 0 #22 April 4, 2010 Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 2 #23 April 4, 2010 QuoteBeing a former round jumper I wasn't too freaked out about going backwards. Yeah; I think I made about my first 70 jumps or so landing backwards. Piece 'o cake. (Feet & knees together, please.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #24 April 5, 2010 QuoteQuoteBeing a former round jumper I wasn't too freaked out about going backwards. Yeah; I think I made about my first 70 jumps or so landing backwards. Piece 'o cake. (Feet & knees together, please.) Hell, I want my R-3's back. Cut one side away... problem solved. Seriously though, landing while backing up should not be that big a deal. It must have been pretty windy to drag that many jumpers. were these low time jumpers? Or, based on how I'm interpreting this, were these more than "marginal" winds?Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #25 April 5, 2010 Quote Quote when their “mad skills” fail them. Sparky, you misspelled "skillz". Hey, when they get enough scar tissue they may smarten up, same as we did. Dude. Have you seen Sparky up close... in good light? Given the amount of scar tissue he's got, he must be real smart! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
