"proper" way to fix a PC in tow?

[emmiwy 0]

A friend of mine showed me this video a student's AFF level 2. I was incredulous at first when he told me how the mal was "fixed": main side JM effectively punching the side of the student's rig to deploy the bag. Clearly if this student were jumping solo he would not be able to punch his own rig, and cutting away would be obvious. But I would have thought the student would think to cutaway or instructor would have signaled to the student to cutaway?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PctXVPNyWKg

[DSE 5]

Remember your training and FJC.
What's a PC in tow?
A high-speed malfunction.
How do you manage a high-speed mal?

Don't make me sic the dragon on you....

[danielcroft 2]

Clicky: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PctXVPNyWKg

[mjosparky 4]

I have seen a couple of videos showing the same problem. I think if you lengthen the bridle and have the main side JM drop off the problem will go away. You have a 3 person burble causing the air flow to close back at or above the PC. This reduces the effectiveness of the PC to lift the bag/canopy. That and the tight corners on the Sunpath container that may have been over packed just a bit. Jmo

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[davelepka 4]

That's not a PC in tow, that's a PC hesitation. You can see that the pin is pulled, and the container flaps are open. In that case, the problem is not a mis-rig, the problem is the PC is not pulling hard enough to get the bag out of the container.

Student rigs will have this problem for a few reasons. The canopies are always on the large side, which makes them heavy, and also due to their size, they'r eoften a tight fit into the container to keep the container size reasonable. Add to that a PC that might have been through a 'few' jumps, and lost some of it's power, and you have a PC hesitation. A weak PC trying to pull a heavy bag out of a tight container. Finally, the instructor themselves is adding to the problem just by being there. They create a larger burble, and give the PC less wind to work with.

Hesitations on student PCs are common, and delt with in different ways, punching the container is one of them.

Using your elbow to jab the side of your reserve container is a great idea if you pull silver and nothing happens. At that point anything is a good idea, right?

If you have a hesitaion, or PC in tow, you can reach back and punch the side of your container once, but only once. The rule with high speed mals has always been, 'two tries, two seconds'. Pulling the PC is your first try, punching the container is your second, and if there's still no canopy, you've got yourself a malfunction. Of course, run this by your instructors before inserting it into your brain.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

That's not a PC in tow, that's a PC hesitation. You can see that the pin is pulled, and the container flaps are open. In that case, the problem is not a mis-rig, the problem is the PC is not pulling hard enough to get the bag out of the container.

Dave,
I have to diagree with you on this one.

Anytime that the Pilot chute is being towed, it is a P/C in-tow.

That P/C was being pulled along for a few seconds.

P/C hesition is the time before is it is presented into the airstream and actually inflating fully. i.e. rolling around on your back and then taking off into the airstream.

Like stated before a longer bridle will make the difference and also the P/C is too small for that system. It needs about a 30-32' P/C on that system to resolve the problem.

BS,
MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[stratostar 5]

Quote

if this student were jumping solo he would not be able to punch his own rig

We call that your elbow to side flap method, it's an old school trick.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Bodhisattva420 0]

I've heard your suppose to try and roll on your side to clear the burble if that happens. Can you try once to give the bridle a yank? Or is that a bad idea?

[DSE 5]

Looking over one shoulder or the other will generally clear a hesitation.
A PCIT is a different animal.

http://www.vimeo.com/9133819 is a hesitation that clears as soon as the angle of the burble changes.

[Gary73 10]

I'd definitely call that a variety of PCIT. I've seen it happen (from main side) even with new 38" pilot chutes, but only when the main-side instructor hangs on after PC release. So our policy is now for the main side to turn and track the instant the student releases the PC. Gee, just like in the AFF-I course. Maybe those AFF I/Es know a thing or two after all.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." - Carl Sagan

[diablopilot 2]

If the student had been solo they wouldn't have had the problem. A student and an instructor hanging on each side is a MASSIVE burble. This is why after the pin has cleard the loop the mainside should turn and track while the reserve side rides through....

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

That's not a PC in tow, that's a PC hesitation. You can see that the pin is pulled, and the container flaps are open. In that case, the problem is not a mis-rig, the problem is the PC is not pulling hard enough to get the bag out of the container.

Student rigs will have this problem for a few reasons. The canopies are always on the large side, which makes them heavy, and also due to their size, they'r eoften a tight fit into the container to keep the container size reasonable. Add to that a PC that might have been through a 'few' jumps, and lost some of it's power, and you have a PC hesitation. A weak PC trying to pull a heavy bag out of a tight container. Finally, the instructor themselves is adding to the problem just by being there. They create a larger burble, and give the PC less wind to work with.

Hesitations on student PCs are common, and delt with in different ways, punching the container is one of them.

Using your elbow to jab the side of your reserve container is a great idea if you pull silver and nothing happens. At that point anything is a good idea, right?

Is there an echo in here?

Quote

I have seen a couple of videos showing the same problem. I think if you lengthen the bridle and have the main side JM drop off the problem will go away. You have a 3 person burble causing the air flow to close back at or above the PC. This reduces the effectiveness of the PC to lift the bag/canopy. That and the tight corners on the Sunpath container that may have been over packed just a bit. Jmo

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[bodypilot1 0]

Quote

If the student had been solo they wouldn't have had the problem. A student and an instructor hanging on each side is a MASSIVE burble. This is why after the pin has cleard the loop the mainside should turn and track while the reserve side rides through....

Though what you say is sometimes true, about main side needing to leave as soon as the pc is out, it is possible that the gear is incorrectly configured for the student. If the container is too small for large student canopy, along with a pilot chute that is too small or too worn out to extract it, it can happen as well.
From a dz you are very farmiliar with, it was an issue for quite some time, resulting in several times the AFF-I had to extract the bag as in the video or track off with it in hand, and even jumpers that rented the gear and had 2 canopies out when they pulled reserves because the main was not extracting.....

www.WestCoastWingsuits.com
www.PrecisionSkydiving.com

[emmiwy 0]

Punching the bag is definitely not what I was taught, I was taught to go straight to emergency procedures in a hi speed mal. But that is certainly good to know, and I know understand the reasoning behind it. Thanks y'all :)

[popsjumper 2]

Quote

If the student had been solo they wouldn't have had the problem. A student and an instructor hanging on each side is a MASSIVE burble. This is why after the pin has cleard the loop the mainside should turn and track while the reserve side rides through....

Please read post #10.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Punching the bag is definitely not what I was taught, I was taught to go straight to emergency procedures in a hi speed mal. But that is certainly good to know, and I know understand the reasoning behind it. Thanks y'all :)

Do not, I repeat, DO NOT follow the advice of people on the net when your life is on the line. At 20 jumps you shouldn’t take time to punch or “elbow” your container. Do your EP’s just the way you’re trained to do. Take this issue to an instructor at you home DZ and have him/her go over it with you.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[stayhigh 2]

I found it extremely hard to reach my bridle once it was in tow.... ..
so i just elbowed my rig, and it worked and came out with three to four line twist..

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[popsjumper 2]

AFF student instructors are there, in part, to help with this Pilot Chute In Tow type of situation. With exception of the mainside JM still hanging on after the PC is released, they are doing the proper job.

I'd rather have to punch the container and give the student TWO opportunites for a good canopy than throw away one of those opportunities by deploying the reserve unnecessarily.

So, for an AFF jump, this IS considered proper.

And you are right...if the jumper had been on his own, he would have performed his EPs as he was taught:
1. Deploy reserve, or
2. Cutaway and deploy the reserve.

More experienced jumpers sometimes try other things as you can see from some of the responses.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[regulator 0]

I'm with DSE on this one...This is a total mal which means go straight for the reserve. Do not pass go. Do not go to jail...go to the reserve. (as in the instructor not being present so you are alone when this particular malfunction presents itself.:)

[AFFI 0]

Quote

I've heard your suppose to try and roll on your side to clear the burble if that happens.
Can you try once to give the bridle a yank?

Anyone?

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[RMURRAY 1]

prevention. don't wait until your PC does not work reliably . retire it at a set number of jumps. same with lines and risers. better safe than sorry.

[masterrigger1 2]

Quote

prevention. don't wait until your PC does not work reliably . retire it at a set number of jumps. same with lines and risers. better safe than sorry.

Yes, but on this system I suggest a longer bridle and larger P/C when you change it out.

MEL

Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

[timmyfitz 0]

Quote

Quote

I've heard your suppose to try and roll on your side to clear the burble if that happens.
Can you try once to give the bridle a yank?

Anyone?

Are you asking because you don't know the answer or is it that after an answer is given, you can tell them how wrong they are and feel superior?

So what is your answer?

[happythoughts 0]

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prevention. don't wait until your PC does not work reliably . retire it at a set number of jumps. same with lines and risers. better safe than sorry.

Over time, your kill line may shrink enough to where
the PC does not inflate properly. That can be a source
of this problem. Not necessarily the PC itself.
That is another item to add to regular scrutiny.

In my case, I was opening at a higher altitude one time,
I dropped a shoulder and allowed the air to sweep it
off my back. If I had been lower, I wouldn't have
wasted the time.

Also, the PC did come off my back, but the low shoulder
gave me poor body position and I was thrown into
some major line twists. I then had to spend time to
kick out of them.

[AFFI 0]

Quote

Are you asking because you don't know the answer or is it that after an answer is given, you can tell them how wrong they are and feel superior?

No, its cause I am at home sick with cancer and it is too painful to sit up and type much. When I am feeling better I will try...

Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…