Racer speedbag

[alexey 6]

Sorry for bad English

One of local russian manufacturer uses the same kind of idea in their construction of reserve freebag:
velcro pouch for lines and rubberband closing flap with grommets bigger than usial (near size 3, if in US sizes...).

04.03.2006 two way RW jumps, jumpers lost altitute awarnes.

2-way AAD activation.

One jumper had normal opening
Second jumper, when he realise that they are low, start turning. At that time he feel the PC and freebag launch, look up, see freeback with about 0,5 m of reserve, and nothing more happend... He throw his main PC at about 150m, main opened at height about 10 m. Landing with unrelesed toggles. After landing half of reserve still in bad.

Main assumption: one grommet of closing flap didnt open because of lines jam in there...

Lexa

[Treejumps 0]

I really wanted to let this thread die, but I had to post JS's velcor article from their technicle archives.

This is from 2000.

High cycle/Low tenacity Velcro has an average life span of 700 jumps vs. 300 jumps for tuck tabs used in the same application. Not only does Velcro outlast the average tuck tab - it's easier and less expensive to replace. Most importantly, Velcro opens when it's supposed to, and will not hinder square reserve bag extraction as some tuck tab designs do. Riser cover tabs and stiffeners can snag lines, cause uneven riser deployment and spin deployment bags resulting frequently in line twists and malfunctions. Recent field reports indicate that Riser Cover Tuck Tabs are a major cause of eliptical canopys spinning up on opening requiring a cutaway.

Tuck tabs are acceptable in certain applications - but inappropriate in many others. Change for the sake of marketing purposes is unwise to say the least, when it affects the integrity and functionality of life saving equipment.

Re-examine the New Velcro - it works.

This is the best part: "Change for the sake of marketing purposes is unwise to say the least, when it affects the integrity and functionality of life saving equipment." I bet you all didn 't realize that velcor lasted 700 jumps and that all your tuck tabs were worn out after only 300. Shucks, both my rigs have over 1000 jumps on them, and I didn't even realize my tuck tabs were worn out. I guess because they never open accidentally and never require maintenance I didn't notice.

I haven't changed Mike's mind and he hasn't chnaged mine, but I think this thread has been very useful for a lot of jumpers who maybe don't take the time to learn about their gear. Its important to undestand what you are jumping and the implications of a new piece of gear. Opinions do vary, so know what they are and which ones you believe. Your life depnds on it.

Cya

[ccowden 0]

Anyone on the Pro-Speedbag side of things care to make a statement about the video on Skydiving Movies which shoes a baglock on the Speedbag during a normal deployment sequence?

I am neither pro or con, but I don't know much about it. I have to admit that the video is scary!

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

Recent field reports indicate that Riser Cover Tuck Tabs are a major cause of eliptical canopys spinning up on opening requiring a cutaway.

At least one major container manufacturer (not referring to Jump Shack) is working on a solution to this very problem. It is not a figment of J. Sherman's imagination.

For Great Deals on Gear

[RMURRAY 1]

Quote

I haven't changed Mike's mind and he hasn't chnaged mine, but I think this thread has been very useful for a lot of jumpers who maybe don't take the time to learn about their gear. Its important to undestand what you are jumping and the implications of a new piece of gear. Opinions do vary, so know what they are and which ones you believe. Your life depnds on it.



Cya

it has been entertaining. since you are on to a different subject tuck tabs and velcro have advantages and disadvantages. Here is what Bill Booth has said on the subject.....


Tuck riser covers are very sensitive to the bulk under them. (Velcro riser covers didn't have this problem, by the way.) When we design a rig with tuck tabs, we can only choose one riser cover dimension, and we base that on the average bulk we expect. When your risers are "thick" like yours, you should ask your rigger to leave very little bulk at the top
of your freebag. This will help your riser covers stay shut. If he can't pack with little bulk up top, perhaps your reserve is a bit too large. Even if you choose the "right size" reserve for your container, two supposedly "identical" reserves may have up to 10% different pack volumes, because of fabric and construction tolerances. Every bit of bulk, risers or canopy, up top affects your riser cover's ability to stay shut. So, if you want your riser covers to be as secure as possible, always choose a reserve that will fit "loosely" in your container, so that your riser covers can curve over your shoulders.

rm

[sid 1]

Quote

Anyone on the Pro-Speedbag side of things care to make a statement about the video on Skydiving Movies which shoes a baglock on the Speedbag during a normal deployment sequence?

I am neither pro or con, but I don't know much about it. I have to admit that the video is scary!

The video is of an unrealistic floor test for THAT bag. That is not how forces are applied in a deployment. What is shown is analagous to trying to slide velcro apart instead of peeling it apart. I posted a video of an actual reserve deployment using the bag on the same site. The lines that fold over the canopy prior to the flaps being closed peel the flaps apart during the deployment using the same principles as a diaper on a round canopy. The speedbag is an evolution of that technology for square reserves. The bag is supposed to stay closed until the lines are sequentially deployed, then the lines inside the bag peel enough of the bag apart to release the canopy, thus avoiding inflation prior to line stretch.

That video shows an unrealistic test - FOR THAT PRODUCT.

That is all I'm going to say though, because this thread has been hacked to death and nobody who has their minds already "made up" is not going to change it now.....

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[ccowden 0]

Ok, but what about people like myself who have NOT made up their minds?

I understand that the video shows and "unrealistic" deployment for the Speedbag, but it does in fact lock and, unrealistic or not, it makes me wonder what other "unrealistic" situations it might in a "realistic" world of skydiving situations.

For someone like myself, who is completely uneduactaed about the Speedbag, it is scary to see. I would have thought a freebag would pull off clean in any "unrealistic" floor test like the one that is shown. That is why I am asking to be educated. To my uneducated eye, it looks way too easy to lock in such a simple test.

[faulknerwn 38]

Quote

Quote

Recent field reports indicate that Riser Cover Tuck Tabs are a major cause of eliptical canopys spinning up on opening requiring a cutaway.

I believe that.. For years, CRWdogs who jump rigs with tuck-tab riser covers always open them right before exit. Especially in competition, you can't take the chance of off-heading openings..

• Quote

[darnknit 0]

Quote

The video is of an unrealistic floor test for THAT bag. That is not how forces are applied in a deployment.

like i said in another thread, i have over three hundred reserve repacks, and i have never seen any other deployment device lock up "on the floor".

Quote

The lines that fold over the canopy prior to the flaps being closed peel the flaps apart during the deployment using the same principles as a diaper on a round canopy.

i have never seen a half or full diaper lock up "on the floor", and i have packed quite a few of them.

Quote

That video shows an unrealistic test - FOR THAT PRODUCT.

i think that video shows a clearly identifiable snag point on the deployment device that could be eliminated with a minor change in the way the bag is manufactured.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[mark 107]

Quote

I have never seen a half or full diaper lock up "on the floor", and I have packed quite a few of them.

I have.

Mark

[johnny1488 1]

I believe tuck tabs are a major cause of off heading on sub terminal deployments.

I have only seen one rig that had riser covers effect a terminal canopy opening, and i believe that manufacturer took steps to change the design.

Johnny
--"This ain't no book club, we're all gonna die!"
Mike Rome

[kruse 0]

Quote

Quote

I have never seen a half or full diaper lock up "on the floor", and I have packed quite a few of them.

I have.

Mark

---------------------------------------------------------
Please explain.

[mark 107]

Quote

Please explain.

Mid to late 80's. A rigger I had trained was laying out a round with a 2-bight diaper (Pioneer?), previously packed by an unrated rigger with a borrowed seal. Both line groups were routed inside the diaper, which would have made for a hard opening, but should not have contributed to the lock.

The diaper locked as she stretched the canopy out, and would not release as she applied tension. I do not recall the exact mechanism of the lock.

I think a reserve pilot chute at terminal would apply more tension than a rigger at a packing table, so I believe even this lock would have cleared at line stretch -- a much better alternative to clearing before line stretch.

I have not seen or heard of any other cases of diaper lock, either on the table or in actual use. That includes both reserve and main (raeper, frap strap, etc) diapers.

Mark

[JerryBaumchen 1,422]

Hi Mark,

Also, in the late '70's, Pioneer had a canopy with a diaper that was held closed by a pin. There were a lot of rumors in those days about it NOT opening.

Anyone know of this?

Jerry

PS) I recall a few folks cutting the diaper/pin off the canopy and just packing it. Not using the diaper may have been optional; the memory is a little fuzzy on this.

[riggerrob 643]

Yes Jerry,

I repacked a Pioneer Slim Pack (sp?) a few times in the mid 1980s - also wore it when I flew the jump plane. When it came time to repack, I asked the old club rigger why the manual mentioned the pin, but the pin had been cut off the canopy.He explained that pins sometimes hung up, ergo the canopy was retro-fitted with a two-bite diaper.

[mark 107]

Quote

Pioneer had a canopy with a diaper that was held closed by a pin.

That would be the Reuter wrap: a piece of (Type 4?) tape sewn to one line near the skirt. The tape wrapped around the lines and was held in a place by a straight closing pin (similar to a pull-out pin) attached to a suspension line and inserted from the bottom. At line extension, the pin pulled out and the wrap opened.

You could get the pin to stay in by inserting it from the top down.

Mark

[RMURRAY 1]

Quote

Ok, but what about people like myself who have NOT made up their minds?

I understand that the video shows and "unrealistic" deployment for the Speedbag, but it does in fact lock and, unrealistic or not, it makes me wonder what other "unrealistic" situations it might in a "realistic" world of skydiving situations.

For someone like myself, who is completely uneduactaed about the Speedbag, it is scary to see. I would have thought a freebag would pull off clean in any "unrealistic" floor test like the one that is shown. That is why I am asking to be educated. To my uneducated eye, it looks way too easy to lock in such a simple test.

JumpShack have posted a video on their website which shows "more realistic testing of the speedbag" (most likely in response to this thread). I am not able to download so cannot comment. It is under new downloads down at the bottom.

http://www.jumpshack.com/portal/

rm

[stratostar 5]

I know someone who has one in his bellywart right now, with the pin installed, and yes it is bottom to top, while many a jumper would think it is foolish to use this canopy, this jumpers seems to have no worries about using it should he need to, and he is a rigger so it would be his seal.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

JumpShack have posted a video on their website which shows "more realistic testing of the speedbag" (most likely in response to this thread). I am not able to download so cannot comment. It is under new downloads down at the bottom.

I've seen it - they have one person hold the reserve PC and the jumper walks away, simulating a deployment.

I fail to see how it is a "more realistic test" than the other video posted. In both cases the force applied is in parallel to the lines.

Can someone explain, please?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[sid 1]

Quote

I've seen it - they have one person hold the reserve PC and the jumper walks away, simulating a deployment.

I fail to see how it is a "more realistic test" than the other video posted. In both cases the force applied is in parallel to the lines.

Can someone explain, please?

I am the jumper walking away and that's my rig.... (also, in the interests of scientific study it hadn't actually been repacked in a while ) - the speedbag uses motion to control and order the deployment of the lines before the final group of lines, which run under the top flap, peel it back. There was no hesitation or indication to me that the canopy had released until it hit the floor, I just kept walking and would probably have been in Daytona if they hadn't called me back.
Laying the bag on the floor and pulling it slowly is unlikely to generate enough kinetic energy to peel back the flap, but the simple action of walking forward does.
I really want to let this thread die, because all of the answers are in here and you are either going to believe them or not, so I'm not going to debate this post, and if I used the incorrect terminology (kinetic energy, shmenergy) I apologize now.
In EVERY realistic test - and in actual use, in both cutaways and canopy transfers, the speedbag performs flawlessly. It ensures that the lines deploy before the canopy and is an evolution of the diaper principle that I, as a rigger and a skydiver use on my equipment because I believe it is an advance in reserve deployment safety.

Pete Draper,

Just because my life plan is written on the back of a Hooter's Napkin, it's still a life plan.... right?

[darnknit 0]

Quote

Laying the bag on the floor and pulling it slowly is unlikely to generate enough kinetic energy to peel back the flap, but the simple action of walking forward does.

the guy in the clip where the speedbag locked up does not have the bag on the floor. he also appears to be walking at least as fast as you did.( i just watched both clips)

given the reasons you state above, it is difficult for me to understand how only one of these tests is realistic.

i also notice that even in jumpshack's video, half of the bag remains shut. i wont speak for anyone else, but if i noticed a condition like that, even on my main, i would change something. i'm just not a big fan of half-shut deployment bags.

pulling is cool. keep it in the skin

[teason 0]

The bag remains shut on one side because there is enough room to allow the canopy to escape.

A freebag is not usually tight with the canopy in it, unless your rigger is sloppy or the canopy is massive. With a racer, you need to leave a nest in the middle if you want the PC to sit right. This means that the freebag is only 2/3 full if your rigger did a good job.

One side of the bag opens before the other and as soon as that happens, the canopy has more than enough room to escape. Things follow the path of least resistance. The canopy is free before the other side releases.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[jumpwally 0]

Ok,,its been a few seasons anything new ? Was this ever resolved ? Whats the verdict ?.....we should have 4 more years of data...

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[JohnSherman 1]

You want data you are going to get data.
The Main Speed Bag has been in use for some 10 years. No Malfunctions blaimed on the bag.
The resere bag has been used for a lesser period of time, but no real problems.
Now here is the real data.
In 2006 the United States Air Force Academy made 850 jumps they had 14 malfunctions.
In 2007 they switched to SPEED Bags- Zero malfunctions. Again in 2008 Zero Malfunctions. In 2009 they had 1 malfunction (a line knot).
From 14 mal in one year to out of 850 jumps to One malfunction in 3 years out of 2550 jumps.
One of the instructors did make one jump during that time where he didn't use a SPEED bag. He broke his neck.
Nuf said

[skydiverek 63]

Quote

You want data you are going to get data.
The Main Speed Bag has been in use for some 10 years. No Malfunctions blaimed on the bag.
The resere bag has been used for a lesser period of time, but no real problems.
Now here is the real data.
In 2006 the United States Air Force Academy made 850 jumps they had 14 malfunctions.
In 2007 they switched to SPEED Bags- Zero malfunctions. Again in 2008 Zero Malfunctions. In 2009 they had 1 malfunction (a line knot).
From 14 mal in one year to out of 850 jumps to One malfunction in 3 years out of 2550 jumps.
One of the instructors did make one jump during that time where he didn't use a SPEED bag. He broke his neck.
Nuf said

Were there any other variables? Or is all the success attributed to the bag? It is hard for me to believe that all those 14 malfunctins were bag-related, and not something like lineovers, etc.