When is enough enough?

[DesertDevil 1]

I'm just kind of throwing this out to hear what others think. I know there are a lot of healthy, great elderly skydivers. But at the same time, I've seen older AFF and tandem instructors fly less well than they did when they were younger, or people who have been in serious skydive accidents struggle to fly at a certain level of expertise. I don't want to offend anyone, but I've just seen an instructor's age or injuries become a factor in the way they teach and fly, but they keep flying with students anyway. It crossed my mind that such people should maybe stop flying with students and maybe just teach ground school. But I guess there's no way to enforce that?

[JohnRich 4]

It's not a function of age, it's a function of competency.

If they can do the job, let 'em.
If they can't, don't let 'em.
That should be decided on an individual case-by-case basis.

Arbitrary age limits are a bad idea.

[emmiwy 0]

Quote

It's not a function of age, it's a function of competency.

Arbitrary age limits are a bad idea.

+1

There are some young instructors who I think should not be teaching at all...

[billvon 3,065]

> but I've just seen an instructor's age or injuries become a factor in the
>way they teach and fly, but they keep flying with students anyway.

You could use the same argument to say that until someone has 10 years of experience, they have no background, no life experience, no larger view with which to teach someone. So there's no way a 20 year old should be teaching anyone anything; they've got no background.

Which I don't think is a good argument either. I know 20 year old instructors who are great; I know 60 year olds who are even better. As long as they can do the job, let them - regardless of age, size, physical losses, looks etc.

[piisfish 140]

4000 jumps should be the limit

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[popsjumper 2]

So far, everyone has missed the point that you make of performance degradation in this case.

When age or injury or anything else, for that matter, becomes a detriment to student safety, it's time to have a little heart-to-heart. Hopefully, he would man-up and step down voluntarily...it's kinda like big-boy rules.

Other than that, I'd have to ask, "what was his level of teaching and flying before you noticed the change?"

I mean, him at his worst may be better than some others at their best.

WTH, a little heart-to-heart right NOW would not be a bad thing. Talk to him.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[rhys 0]

Mike Spurgon in Lodi still smashes out 18 tandems on a Saturday at will, during summer. A couple of hundred in a month and holds more energy and enthusiasm than many of the younger T/M's, He is 70 years old.

As long as you get the medical I say.

Some people get hooked on the sport, become instructors, lose enthusiasm, and continue to be instructors because thats what they 'know' how to do but couldn't really care less anymore, it is sad but it happen. They could even have great aptitude and experience, yet still be shit simply because of their attitude.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[format 1]

Quote

It crossed my mind that such people should maybe stop flying with students and maybe just teach ground school.

+1
toward people who's teaching value inspired you to post

What goes around, comes later.

[Heatmiser 0]

Quote

Quote

It's not a function of age, it's a function of competency.

Arbitrary age limits are a bad idea.

+1

There are some young instructors who I think should not be teaching at all...

Really? I'm certainly NOT asking you to out someone, but I am genuinely interested to hear what actions or traits by an instructor would prompt you to think they shouldn't be teaching. I ask this from the vantage point of someone about to challenge a coach course, with aspirations of becoming an instructor eventually, not one who stirs shit.

What you say is reflective of your knowledge...HOW ya say it is reflective of your experience. Airtwardo

Someone's going to be spanked! Hopefully, it will be me. Skymama

[stratostar 5]

If you don't mind me asking, could you tell us who was your course director or course directors for the courses when you got your ratings?

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[mjosparky 4]

I smell a personal agenda………….

As was said in another thread, say what you mean.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[emmiwy 0]

Quote

Really? I'm certainly NOT asking you to out someone, but I am genuinely interested to hear what actions or traits by an instructor would prompt you to think they shouldn't be teaching. I ask this from the vantage point of someone about to challenge a coach course, with aspirations of becoming an instructor eventually, not one who stirs shit.

Well, I should not be so harsh, and say instead that any instructor a student may have doubts about should evaluate how they are doing their job and whether it is negatively impacting students in a way they do not intend. Some instructors do not carry themselves with the same professionalism, in terms of both how they behave towards their students, how they may regard themselves as instructors, and how they interact with others around the DZ. I feel they should stop to think about why they became instructors/coaches to begin with.

On the other hand, I do like that my instructors are easy to talk to, listen, and are respectful without needing to be militaristic or rigid; in fact the instructors I have the best chemistry with is what helps me relax and fly better. But someone who may regard his student as his paycheck, or cares more about being their student's best friend, as opposed to keeping them safe in the sky, is what I was specifically referring to.

It's the good instructors I have that also motivate me to become an instructor someday, like you. Good luck with your coach course, keep us posted on how it goes I'm also interested :)

[wmw999 2,529]

Some states require people over a certain age to re-take the driving test.

Either way, if there are specific instructors you're concerned about, talk to the chief instructor where you are, or talk to the DZO, or talk to the instructor directly, voice your concerns, and give examples.

You might be misinterpreting, and you might be right. If those avenues don't bear any fruit, if you think students are being endangered, then keep it up -- but your reputation is on the line, so make sure your concerns are serious enough to risk your own reputation.

If the DZO or chief instructor end up coming to the same conclusion as you, you can always ask them to mention it to USPA, and USPA can start gathering data on instructor age.

Either way, there will not be a blanket requirement that instructors retire after a certain age; the farthest it will go is that an instructor might have to make an eval jump periodically.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[stratostar 5]

Weeeeeell, were waiting.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[NovaTTT 2]

Like the new avatar.

"Even in a world where perfection is unattainable, there's still a difference between excellence and mediocrity." Gary73

[DesertDevil 1]

Two incident stands out: an instructor lost his grip on his AFF student, which I suppose could happen to anyone, but he was both an older instructor who had several injuries that bothered him. His shoulder joint and neck got pulled on the exit. The student was left alone. In another incident, a tandem student had to land the canopy by himself because an instructor's old injury was aggravated during the jump and he couldn't reach up. I'm not suggesting "older" skydivers aren't as competent as others. The reverse is probably true. But when it comes to another person's life, instructors in questionable health, old or young, probably shouldn't jump with students. I just threw this out because it was on my mind. I as well as others have talked to instructors we were concerned about. Would you let you kid or spouse jump with someone who had health issues? I didn't mean to offend anyone--so I apologize if I did. To the person who asked who I got my ratings from: I got my Instructor ratings from Jay Stokes.

[stratostar 5]

Quote

I got my Instructor ratings from Jay Stokes.

So would it be fair to say that IYHO if someone took a course for a rating from Mr. Stokes and they pass post accident, then they would meet the requirments to in fact jump with students?

Or are you saying that, if I, at age 45 and post accident healed by a number of months and dispite indepth training and course work conducted in a course ran by Mr. Stokes in the last few months by a person who is post accident from last season, that they are not up to snuff to work with students dispite the fact they were passed by Mr. Stokes for the rating in the last month, week, due to age and injury the year before?

And your basing this on the fact an AFF lost a grip or a TM was rehurt on a jump and had to do what they needed to do in order to get back on the ground with a student safety and had to have a student help flair a tandem?

Please explain in more detail.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[DesertDevil 1]

If someone's injury or age (young or old), doesn't interfere with their capacity to act as a capable instructor, then, of course, there's no reason why an instructor who had a previous injury shouldn't fly with a student. I'm talking about instructors who, for some reason or another, may not fly as well as they may have in the past. These instructors, IMHO, have no fucking business flying with a student. It would be nice if you filled out your profile a bit more so I can tell who I am talking to, btw.

[BillyVance 34]

Quote

It would be nice if you filled out your profile a bit more so I can tell who I am talking to, btw.

He's been around a long time. Took out most of his info to protect his privacy...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[liftedtitan 0]

Quote

He's been around a long time. Took out most of his info to protect his privacy...

you know how the internet is these days.....

he must be some kind of legend or something??

Moriuntur omnes, sed non omnes vixerunt.

[stratostar 5]

It seems to me in this thread along with a number of other posts by you in other like minded threads, you have a personal problem with someone in Utah. You like to talk in code words, yet a good number of people have a good idea of who your talking about in your threads.

So why all the code words? Why not just out who you have a problem with?

A number of things come to mind here.

1.What proof do you have this person no longer fly's as well as they did before injury or due to age?

2. Are you a medical professional?

3. Who put you in charge to make that determination, are you the S&TA or DZO?

4. Have you ever been involved with a Fatality?

5. Have you ever injured a student yourself on a tandem jump like busting an ankle or surfing their face through the landing area? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=118515;

6. Are you a USPA I/E and are you doing reevaluation jumps with the person in question to make such a determination?

7. So if the guy in question that you're always hating on got his ratings from Jay Stokes and if this persons ratings are shit, what does that say about yours?

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[parachutist 2]

Quote

His shoulder joint and neck got pulled on the exit. The student was left alone.

Actually I videoed the exit to which you're referring, from inside the aircraft. The instructor's shoulder was slammed into the side of the door as the student simply released his grip on the aircraft, instead of launching. So in effect the instructor was mostly inside the plane, his shoulder hit the door wall, and his body pivoted hard around that door wall. There was no hotel check, no up-down-arch count... the instructor was setting up for exit and the student just released. Now it can be argued that you should always be ready for whatever the student may do, and be ready to push out of the plane at any time, but this was a fast exit and impact, and it would have been difficult for anyone to be ready for that. btw, the instructor was very reluctant to release... it took dislocation of his shoulder before he let the student go.

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

These instructors, IMHO, have no fucking business flying with a student. It would be nice if you filled out your profile a bit more so I can tell who I am talking to, btw.

We all know that there are instructors out there that shouldn't be working with students. For all we know you may be one of them. Your posts in this tread and others I have read lead me to believe you have a personal problem with someone and it may or may not be related to his status as an instructor. It also appears you are trying to walk a fine line of attacking someone without one of the moderators catching on. If you have something you want to say have the balls to come out and say it. Your continued sneaky backdoor tactics are starting to make you look silly. Jmo.

I happen to know Stratostar and he is just what he appears to be, an old school jumper who has been around awhile and knows a bit about the sport. You can find out who I am by reading by profile or just ask.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[jumpwally 0]

"protect privacy " ? what a crock of shit...from what ? credit card theives ? I pisses me off to no extent when i hear that pussy arguement......

I have no issue's with Stratostar what so ever, i am reacting to your comment only,,,i never understood those that do hide behind that statement......

Stand up guys like Billvon and DSE don't ever seem to whine like that ...i never understood why at minimum one can't include region of jumping, years, jumps and first name

smile, be nice, enjoy life
FB # - 1083

[skypuppy 1]

So in your examples you talk about two jumps where the instructors were injured ON THE JUMP and had to modify the game plan in order to land those jumps safely.

Seems to me you don't have to be old to get hurt ON A JUMP. And if someone is hurt on a jump, and has problems on the same jump after that injury, it doesn't make them a bad flyer.

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone