Haiti Woman Dies Mid-flight

[bloody_trauma 2]

hey and that brings up a good point.... is there a defibrilator and oxygen bottles in our jump craft, that skyvan, that king air, that cessna? on the ground there is i imagine at most DZ's. but i was at the fest of sky and diver had a seizure shortly before we were all about to get out. kudos to the emergency services of rosharon for getting to the landing point before we even landed!

granted an AED iat that altitude and in an aircraft no less would not read accurately if you really needed it.

oxygen would be handy though in an event like that, i think the lack of o2 in that atmosphere precipitated his seizure cuz after we got lower he converted to normal breathig pattern and stopped seizing into the post ictal phase.

heres anopther scenario, is a man with an internal defibrillator cleared for flight, i doubt this type of person would continue to skydive but crazy things happen. is there a contingency plan for such things?

murphy is always lurking... just some questions!

Fly it like you stole it

[freefallfreak 0]

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. . . gaseous oxygen units (usually made of green metal) . . .

Where -exactly- do you find stuff made from green metal?

deep in Nevada desert

Does it also glow in the dark?

TripleF

"Upon seeing the shadow of a pigeon, one must resist the urge to look up."

[kbordson 8]

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sounds to me in a speculatory way... that the woman was sufferingfrom a diabetic problem, c/o thirt, and then ate something, the three hall make signs of a diabetic attack are polydipsia (excessive thirst), poly phagia, (excessive hunger) and polyuria( excessive urination). so she could have possible had to of those three, dunno about the third.

it goes on to say that she had heart disease,... im not aware of any airline that would refuse you the right of medically necessary equipment as long as you brought valid documantation for it.

I highly doubt that the administration of oxygen alone would have saved this woman, if her airway or respiratory system was going to fail, oxygen would help but it wouldnt stop what ever killed her without definitive medical care.

so im seeing any number of problems that may have killed her...

that, and are the people on that airline trained to administer oxygen...

oxygen administration is very touchy to me, there are so many devices to give o2 and each of those devices provides a specific amount of oxygen/room air concentration. and theres a ratio of percentage increase for every liter of air you give. so when a first responder give o2 to at 10 liters on a nasal canula, they dont know that only 6 is going to go in, and if that person is prone to certain respiraotry condition, you may actually kill thier respiratory drive after a prolonged period of administration.... jumps off his soap box...

that woman was gonna die anyways... i take care of people for as long as medicine will allow them to live, but people are living way too long these days when they should be in the grave. like the poeple who cant barely function at all and stay on a vent for years... bah it cost more to keep you alive than to plan your funeral ... that is all

Hmmmm. OK. Did you read my post above?

Where are you getting the "diabetic attack"? Are you inferring hypoglycemic attack or hyperglycemic? DKA (which would only be for type 1 diabetics) or Hyperosmolar Hyperglycemic Nonketotic Coma (which is more likely for type 2 diabetics)? Her symptoms really don't match. Honestly.

This was likely CARDIAC and triggered by the change in partial pressure of the oxygen in the cabin with the pressurization. If she had gotten oxygen, it might have improved her cardiac stress. After she had the MI, if she had gotten the defib, it likely would have converted her back.

Yes, we all die... but this was probably a preventable death.

[shermanator 4]

I'm a little confused, are we asuming that she was already on oxygen to begin with? I must have overlooked that part in the article, but I don't feel like reading it again.

CLICK HERE! new blog posted 9/21/08
CSA #720

[kbordson 8]

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I'm a little confused, are we asuming that she was already on oxygen to begin with? I must have overlooked that part in the article, but I don't feel like reading it again.

Some are making that assumption.

But even if she wasn't, it would still be an indicated treatment for a heart attack.

[DSE 5]

In the television news segment, the cousin said she was told she could not bring her oxygen tank on the flight. I can't find that same statement in the print media, so either both of us that watched it inferred or dreamed it, or else the web articles are missing it (which doesn't make sense, as it's a salient and important point). However, the web stories do make it clear American Air has a policy against passengers bringing oxygen tanks on board.
Flip side, here is another version of the same story that has a completely different take on it, and seems more reasonable, less sensationalized, and claims she'd been given a "clean bill of health" 2 weeks before the flight. If this one is right and the first story wrong...wow. Diametrics in action.

[diablopilot 2]

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The hypoxia on board probably led to heart strain as they generally pressurize the cabins to 7,000 to 10,000 feet.

The legal maximum is 8000 MSL I believe.

As to the contents of the O2 bottles, I can't comment, but as to the non-functioning defibrillator, I believe AED's are so dummy proof they only function when they sense a specific hear rhythm.

If the woman had a medical condition requiring supplemental O2, she should have been on a medical transport flight.

I'm thinking AA (as worthless as I think they are from a customer service point) is NOT culpable here.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Rookie120 0]

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the AA Airbus have at least 6 portable O2 bottles...

Thanks Mike. Is that the minimum for dispatch or is that total on board?

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

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Yes, we all die... but this was probably a preventable death.

How in the hell can you come to that conclusion without ever seeing the lady? The medical examiner said it was a heart attack but how severe of one was it. If if was like the one my grandfather had, he could have fallen on a surgeons table and he still would have been dead. He was gone in a matter of moments. I just dont see how anyone not involved can say that it was preventable. I just read she had a doctor on board the aircraft working on her. The way I see it, it was just her time to go.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

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The legal maximum is 8000 MSL I believe.

Hell, next time you fly pull out your altimeter and that will tell you what the cabin altitude is. usually between 5-6000 ft it will probably read.

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but as to the non-functioning defibrillator, I believe AED's are so dummy proof they only function when they sense a specific hear rhythm.

I never used one but I have done the op's check on them plenty of times. There is a little sight window on it. If you see an hour glass the battery and system is good. If you see an X you need to replace it. It is supposed to be check on the first flight of the day and whenever a new crew comes on board.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kbordson 8]

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The way I see it, it was just her time to go.

So.... why are you entitled to your opinion, but I'm not entitled to mine?

(and I do believe that I explained my rationale in a logical and MEDICAL fashion.)

[bloody_trauma 2]

site your references in APA format

Fly it like you stole it

[kbordson 8]

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site your references in APA format

Isn't this:

Heart problems + Low partial pressure of oxygen = Increase stress and work to heart -> increased heart rate -> increase stress to heart -> myocardial death.

basic enough not to need a full essay?

[bloody_trauma 2]

low PEEP + Decrease Cardiac Output r/t increased cardiac workload m/b dude looking precoded, arrrrrrrrr.

been studying resp/cardio, my brain will soon explode. its kind of like when a woman doesnt get to nurse for a long period of time, if i dont take a test soon my ventricles will swell and burst and get gooey cardiac knowledge all over you

Fly it like you stole it

[Rookie120 0]

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So.... why are you entitled to your opinion, but I'm not entitled to mine?

I never said you couldn't voice it. You just made it sound like you threw all the blame with the crew by saying this was preventable. She had a doctor there working on her but in your mind this was preventable? Tell us how they should have done things to prevent this lady from going to the dark side. My opinion was it was her time due to the fact she had a doctor and they did what they could to try to save her with what they had.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kbordson 8]

Ok... I will say it again.

Heart condition.

Decreased partial pressure of oxygen.

Heart works harder.

IF the oxygen had been available, she could have had less cardiac injury. (which is why oxygen is one of the four meds used to treat heart attacks)

Additionally, if the heart was strained, it is likely it went into VFib which is a convertable rhythm and IF the AED were functional it could have administered a shock.

But... the two canisters of oxygen that were tried were reported to be empty and the AED was reported to be malfunctioning.

I understand that you're trying to defend your fellow airline peoples, but I think you're blinding yourself to the logic that this could have been a preventable death.

Just having the doctors there waving their hands won't help her. Thats why the airlines have emergency equipment. IF it is nonfucntioning, there is culpability.


and by the way, when you state

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How in the hell can you come to that conclusion without ever seeing the lady? . . . . I just dont see how anyone not involved can say that it was preventable. I just read she had a doctor on board the aircraft working on her. The way I see it, it was just her time to go.

you are saying that I can't come to that my conclusion but you can come to yours.

[jdthomas 0]

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Yes, we all die... but this was probably a preventable death.

I just read she had a doctor on board the aircraft working on her. The way I see it, it was just her time to go.

yes there was a Docotr on board and aircraft with no oxygen and a AED that apppears to be broken, so if your logic says that she could have been saved by a man with knowledge on how to fix the problem, just fix it with no tools!
What kind of MD was he, podiatrist? cardiovascular? even that has some bearing on the outcome!

Your logic of a Doctor on board and she still died is not proof it was her time to go. If you fix planes and and something fails inflight and you have a box of broken tools, could you save the plane?

Your statements look like desperation to defend and airline and not that of concern of human life and your rebuttles to Kbord are not helping your case.

www.greenboxphotography.com

[mx757 4]

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the AA Airbus have at least 6 portable O2 bottles...

Thanks Mike. Is that the minimum for dispatch or is that total on board?

the 767 / A300 have 6 on board they are in case two bottles per case. total of 12

[Rookie120 0]

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IF the oxygen had been available, she could have had less cardiac injury.

O2 was available, with a doctor there giving it.

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Additionally, if the heart was strained, it is likely it went into VFib which is a convertable rhythm and IF the AED were functional it could have administered a shock.

How do you know it was not functional? Did you do the op's check on it? Who said it wasnt working?

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But... the two canisters of oxygen that were tried were reported to be empty and the AED was reported to be malfunctioning.

Reported by who? The relative? How the hell would they know? Because the bag on the mask didnt inflate? it usually doesn't. So how do they know. How was the AED malfunctioning according to the relative? Because it didnt shock her?

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I understand that you're trying to defend your fellow airline peoples,

Unlike some who hide under a rock, if we fuck up I will be the first to want to know what happened and how do we fix it. First of all it is extremely embarrassing to explain to friends who always ask why YOU meaning me fucked up.

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but I think you're blinding yourself to the logic that this could have been a preventable death.

Maybe, if she was on the ground, near a hospital that had drugs, and a real EKG to see exactly what the hell was going on. I think you are blinding yourself with BS reporting and snapping a conclusion before the body is even room temperature saying that it was preventable. I just find it hard to believe both O2 bottles were empty. But so what it they were? They are 10 more on the plane. Theses bottles where I work are serviced at each service check which is every 3 days.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[kbordson 8]

Dude, I'm done here.

Once you get some medical knowledge and back away from the defensive attitude, we'll talk again. By that time the airline will likely have settled this case.

[Rookie120 0]

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yes there was a Docotr on board and aircraft with no oxygen

Once again, there was O2 on board.

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and a AED that apppears to be broken,

The relative said it was broke. How do they know it wasnt working? Just because you hook the thing up it doesn't start shockin the hell out of the person. It looks for what the manual calls a shockable rhythm. (What ever that means) Then it will shock.

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Your statements look like desperation to defend and airline

And yours sounds like an ambulance chasing lawyer wanting a payday.

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If you fix planes and and something fails inflight and you have a box of broken tools, could you save the plane?

Sure, I will be that monkey on the wing and fix that flight spoiler.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

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Dude, I'm done here.

Bye!

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Once you get some medical knowledge and back away from the defensive attitude, we'll talk again.

And once you get the knowledge that a jet is not a flying ER we'll talk again.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Squeak 17]

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***Dude,


And once you get the knowledge that a jet is not a flying ER we'll talk again.

It can easily be a flying ER if all the equipment is operational and the personnel are trained in it correct usage..

You put forward a pretty poor argument.
for the most part people are speculating on the possible outcomes of this scenarios based on professional knowledge and on the information given in the media.
Many of their arguments are "IF" arguments. Your belligerence shows you in a poor light. Unless you are privy to knowledge about this incident that no one else is you too are working from a point of speculation..
You would serve yourself well to temper your arguments with some reason, and objectivity

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[shortyj 0]

O.k. both POB were inop and the AED didn't work I can't speak for AA b/c I don't work for them, however as part of our pre-flight we check all POB's they must be 1200 psi or above have 2 oxygen mask and 1 oxygen must be plugged in to the HI valve this will allow 4 liter per minute in case of a emergency. As for the AED it must have a flashing hour glass 2 sets of pads and 1 razor. If anything is wrong in the pre-flight the flight attendant tells the head F/A and then they notify the captain. We did have a POB that had a problem once called the captain he called it in and they brought us a new POB before we boarded PAX. That's something that's so important in pre-flight I hope I don't have to use it, but if I do I want to know that it will work b/c in a emergency you have seconds.

Playtime is essential.

[Thanatos340 1]

The reality is we dont know anything here other than what the media is trying to sensationalize.

Was there oxygen on board? Yes.
Was there a Defib on bard? Yes.

Did they function correctly?
The untrained Haitian cousin looking for a lawsuit says NO!!
The corrupt power hungry evil Airline Corporation trying to cover its ass says, YES.

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On Monday, airline spokesman Charley Wilson said there were 12 oxygen tanks on the plane and the crew checked them before the flight took off to make sure they were working. He said at least two were used on Desir.

"American Airlines, after investigation, has determined that oxygen was administered on the aircraft, and it was working, and the defibrillator was applied as well," he said.

He said, She said.

The media will print whatever they think will sell the most papers or attract the most viewers. The FACTS are pretty much totally irrelevant to the American press.

Will American Airlines eventually settle this Lawsuit?? Most likely they will weather they are at fault or not. It will cost them much more in legal fees and bad press if they don’t even if there was absolutely nothing wrong with the oxygen and the Defib worked exactly as designed.