New Gear (harness) which one?

[ast4711 0]

If you would consider buying a new harness, what would you choose in aspects of safety, quality and comfort (in this order)?

First choice if money does not matter, second choice if you consider the value for the money.

The rig would be for an expirenced skydiver with about 400 jumps, main would be something like spectre, sabre2 safire2 135-150 or something in that range.

Your opinions are welcome...
alex

edited:
And yes... I have read the other articles :-)

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

[darkwing 5]

There are several that are all nice. For me it would be between Vector and Infinity. If both had sky hooks I'd go with Infinity. Since Infinity doesn't, I'd go vector.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Peej 0]

If money were no matter... Vector Micron, without a doubt.

My next rig? Another Mirage. I jump a G3 currently and love it. When i eventually order another one this rig will stay as my second.

Second choice, a Vortex II from Parachute systems.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[Tonto 1]

Most people will tell you to buy what they use, for the reasons they bought theirs.

The standard these days is very high and there are many good containers. I went with a Mirage G4 and a Mirage G3 because it was the best I could afford. I'm very happy with the service I've recieved from Mirage, and the rigs work hard and perform well.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Safety: It's tough to buy an unsafe rig these days, and there is no "safest" rig. I can pick up most any new rig and find a feature that is done better than any other manufacturer, and also something that most any other manufacturer does better. Overall, I believe the Racer has the most ideal design from a safety standpoint.

Quality: Infinity tops the list here, but most all containers are built to a high quality standard. Other well built rigs include (in no particular order) Vector3, Javelin, Wings and Racer.

Comfort: Racer or Wings.

Value: Wings, Racer or Infinity. Note that a Racer has a two pin reserve container, so a two pin Vigil or CYPRES2 is required if the jumper elects to jump with an AAD, which increases the cost by about $100.

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[Nightingale 0]

My next rig is going to be a vector. it's hard to find another rig with safety features that outweigh the skyhook.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

My next rig is going to be a vector. it's hard to find another rig with safety features that outweigh the skyhook.

I don't understand this logic, as common as it seems to be.

Let's say the Skyhook gets the reserve out of the bag 100 feet faster than a conventional RSL or a one hand on each handle emergency procedure execution. It's probably not quite that much, but we will use 100 feet for argument's sake.

If your canopy descends at 1000 feet per minute (fairly slow) that means there is a 17 second window in which a Skyhook reserve deployment would help when no other RSL (or hand on each handle EPs) would do the trick. If you are already under a malfunctioning main (fast enough to cause a student CYPRES to fire), the window will be closer to a single second.

Furthermore, this period is going to start somewhere around 400 feet, which is lower than the vast majority of skydivers would be willing to cutaway, even with a Skyhook. I certainly hope USPA isn't going to be promoting such low cutaways, Skyhook or not.

Don't get me wrong, there are many good reasons to buy a Vector3. The build quality is excellent. The resale value is good. The customer service is outstanding.

I think it is a bad idea to promote any rig on the strength of its RSL. It's sort of like buying a car because it has superior brakes. There are too many other things to consider to limit the focus to a single feature.

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[pilotdave 0]

Fast/[semi-]automatic reserve deployments can save lives...any RSL can do that. The skyhook is fast(er), [semi-]automatic, and most importantly, clean. The faster opening isn't THAT important. The fact that it's a safer RSL by giving clean deployments is. How many people that won't jump a standard RSL would jump a skyhook? Thats what makes it a good safety feature.

BTW, racers have such a bad reputation among so many jumpers that don't own one. But jumpers that own them LOVE them. You mentioned you think has the "most ideal design from a safety standpoint". Can you explain why? The only thing I've heard is they have the cleanest reserve pilot chute launch due to the external pop top. But I've heard they can be fitted with a death trap of an RSL and the oh-so-debated speed bag which riggers are now recommending be removed from all racers at my DZ (which doesn't make it unsafe, maybe just misunderstood). So can you please give some actual, emotionless information about what gives them the "most ideal design from a safety standpoint?"

Dave

[FrogNog 1]

Is there a Harness/Container manufacturer within a 90 minute drive of where your (or the new owner) will live? Because being able to drive it in for repairs / alterations can give you some great service with most manufacturers, I reckon. Certainly this has been the case with Infinity in the Western Washington area.

Saving a thousand dollars on a harness/container is like getting 40 or 50 free jumps. That's a lot of free jumps, but that's not a lot of jumps. So I think price is not as important as getting what will make you happy.

Is your post asking what will make you happy or what will make each of us happy?

-=-=-=-=-
Pull.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

Fast/[semi-]automatic reserve deployments can save lives...any RSL can do that. The skyhook is fast(er), [semi-]automatic, and most importantly, clean. The faster opening isn't THAT important. The fact that it's a safer RSL by giving clean deployments is. How many people that won't jump a standard RSL would jump a skyhook? Thats what makes it a good safety feature.

BTW, racers have such a bad reputation among so many jumpers that don't own one. But jumpers that own them LOVE them. You mentioned you think has the "most ideal design from a safety standpoint". Can you explain why? The only thing I've heard is they have the cleanest reserve pilot chute launch due to the external pop top. But I've heard they can be fitted with a death trap of an RSL and the oh-so-debated speed bag which riggers are now recommending be removed from all racers at my DZ (which doesn't make it unsafe, maybe just misunderstood). So can you please give some actual, emotionless information about what gives them the "most ideal design from a safety standpoint?"

Dave

I like the Racer for several reasons.

First and foremost is the "minimalist" design. There's not as much to the rig to go wrong. Four flaps plus four flaps. Using the term flaps on two of the reserve container panels is probably an overstatement. There is minimal complexity to the rig, so there is less that can potentially go wrong. The Racer's fast reserve deployments are due, at least in part, to this "minimalist"design.

Second, none of the major manufacturers in the US come close to the Racer in terms of reserve pin protection. This is important in the plane on the ride to altitude, on exit, and during formation funnels. That is not to say the pin protection on other models is bad, but comparatively, the Racer's is superior.

I like the Racer's riser coverage best. They provide good coverage without the added problem of non symmetrical tuck tab release, which is suspected of contributing to poor opening characteristics.

With respect to RSLs, I have never heard anyone say anything good about the double riser RSL on the Racer. In fairness, I've never asked John Sherman the logic behind it. He generally does things for a reason.

I am not inclined to jump with an RSL. The advent of the Skyhook is not likely to change that. While it is an improved design, I don't like the idea of a one size fits all immediate reaction to a cutaway. I've had enough to know they're not all alike.

However, there are other rigs I like as much as the Racer, but for different reasons. But from strictly a design aspect, I think it tops the list of a lot of well designed rigs.

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[billvon 2,990]

>that means there is a 17 second window in which a Skyhook reserve deployment would help . . .

Personally, I think the greatest advantage for me is the reduction in line twists in reserves when using small main/reserve combinations.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

I think the greatest advantage for me is the reduction in line twists in reserves when using small main/reserve combinations.

People have posted on here first hand accounts of Skyhook reserve deployment resulting in line twists in the reserve. I do not recall the size of the canopies.

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[mjosparky 4]

Quote

He generally does things for a reason.

All manufactures generally do things for a reason. That does not mean that reason is the only reason for doing it or even the best reason. It just happens to be theirs.

Sparky

The "POPTop" was not John’s idea; he bought the rights for Ted Strong.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[sdctlc 0]

I love my Wings and have owned and still own a number of other rigs. The Skyhook on the Vector is an awesome selling point though and does separate that rig from others.

Infinity, Wings, Javelin, Mirage, and Vector are the ones I see alot. Quasar is spending a lot on ads but I am not seeing too many of them. Dolphin is pretty uncommon now (from a new perspective) Still see die-hard Racer fans but even though it is a comfy rig it is not so common.

When your looking at the top 5 they are all pretty close and each has some difference but the Skyhook is a nice bump to put the Vector at the top of a lot of peoples lists.

Scott C.

"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!"

[ast4711 0]

FrogNog,

no, there is no Rig manufacturer that near...

You are right. Saving money is not the first thing here. But if the second-best would be 1000 (just a number) less then it would matter.
Of course, I know the differences are not that much....

alex

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

[ast4711 0]

Thanks for all your opinions!

Of course I know that the recommendations are very subjective, but it is interesting to know either.

Are there any opinions regarding european manufacturers (PDF, Performance Variable, Next, etc.).
I live in Germany and some of the US Manufacturers are not so common here.

alex

--
www.tandemmaster.net
www.skydivegear.de

[riggerrob 643]

Wandering off topic ...

"With respect to RSLs, I have never heard anyone say anything good about the double riser RSL on the Racer. In fairness, I've never asked John Sherman the logic behind it. He generally does things for a reason."

Sherman's logic for a double-ended style RSL was to prevent reserve deployment before both main risers were gone.
RWS applied the same logic when designing the Collins lanyard.
Parachutes de France applied the same logic when designing their two-pin LOR system.

The primary disadvantage of Racer's cross-connector style RSL is that it might hook under the back of a helmet and prevent the main from leaving. This happened during early test jumps with student piggybacks (Innovator during the early 1980s). We have also seen this malfunction with Student Bullets, etc.

There is also a slim chance that a cross-connector RSL might choke off a reserve canopy - if cutaway during a solo down plane. This last scenario forced national aero clubs to post vague warnings about disconnecting RSLs before cutting away mains .. which only added to the confusion.

The bottom line is that Racers' cross-connector style RSL solves one problem (ensuring that both main risers have gone before pulling reserve ripcord) but it creates another problem (entanglement with RSL).

Rig design is never easy because one change always affects three or more other components.

[3331 137]

The "POPTop" was not John’s idea; he bought the rights from Ted Strong.

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

Re: Just trying to keep it real.

Ted Strong once told me that Dan obtained a patent on the PopTop. I do not know of any arrangement between Dan and Ted.

Jerry

[mjosparky 4]

It seems we are both right. Dan is listed as the inventor with Strong Enterprises listed as Assignee.

http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=03908937&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%2Fnetahtml%2Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D3,908,937.WKU.%2526OS%3DPN%2F3,908,937%2526RS%3DPN%2F3,908,937&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=5AE4AB781A8E

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

Re: "It seems we are both right."

Always nice when that can happen.

Jerry

[thechutist 0]

Quote

The primary disadvantage of Racer's cross-connector style RSL is that it might hook under the back of a helmet and prevent the main from leaving. This happened during early test jumps with student piggybacks (Innovator during the early 1980s). We have also seen this malfunction with Student Bullets, etc.

There is also a slim chance that a cross-connector RSL might choke off a reserve canopy - if cutaway during a solo down plane. This last scenario forced national aero clubs to post vague warnings about disconnecting RSLs before cutting away mains .. which only added to the confusion.

Rob, can you elaborate on your observation about the Bullets? I don't have one in front of me but, as I recall it, one end of the RSL is attached to a single riser and the other end is a two pin "Y".

Also, are you saying that risks related to cross-connector RSLs are the primary basis for the recommendations to disconnect RSLs before cutting away the main for a "solo down plane"?

[grue 1]

I'm a worthless newbert, but I'd like to relate something that might prove helpful:

Not all riggers will pack Racers. I almost bought one used, but didn't because my local rigger doesn't pack them.

cavete terrae.

[packing_jarrett 0]

I don't really understand why some do and don't. If you know how then its the easiest rig to pack. (and what I discovered) its closing the container that is the hardest part of packing a reserve. When you konw how to pack a racer they're the fastest easies way IMO. but it varies. if your packing a tiny 250X250 and you putting a PD126 with a cypress thats a different story.

edit: I observed my dad packing a racer with a new speed bag and that seems favor in the rigging.

Na' Cho' Cheese

[bob.dino 1]

There are not a huge amount of Europeans on the English-language forums here, so you won't find too many opinions on the relative merits of the Next, PdF, etc.