need help finding manuals

[livnbored 0]

I need help finding some manuals. One is for GQ Security Parachutes, Safety Chute Model 250. It has a Talisman(??) in it with a T-mod done on it, and it is from 1986. It was packed at Irvin a few years ago and checked out. Another is Irvin Great Britain EB 80 with a MRI IRV 844. I've contacted Irvin in Canada and they're trying to find them for me, but I'm wondering if anyone here has them available. And if anyone has any advice. I haven't packed a pilot rig in awhile and am a little foggy if their life spans are compareable to skydiving gear. Preferably someone who packs a lot of pilot rigs. Thanks.

[mjosparky 4]

MANUFACTURER ADVISORY:
GQ advises the Finite Life of all GQ parachutes used for emergency purposes is 10 years from the date of manufacture. This edict is in line with the strict lifing policy laid down by the United Kingdom Ministry of Defense. This policy therefore applies to the 17ft Protector Parachute GQ 2575 Issue 1. We do not recommend any tests or inspection procedures which would extend the Finite 10 year life of emergency parachutes.


EFFECTIVE DATE: 17 November 1980.
AUTHORITY: Technical Director - Parachutes GQ Defense Equipment Limited Stadium Works Portugal Road, Woking SURREY GU21 5JE UNITED KINGDOM
Phone (04862) 61321

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[chutingstar 1]

Quote

MANUFACTURER ADVISORY:
GQ advises the Finite Life of all GQ parachutes used for emergency purposes is 10 years from the date of manufacture. This edict is in line with the strict lifing policy laid down by the United Kingdom Ministry of Defense. This policy therefore applies to the 17ft Protector Parachute GQ 2575 Issue 1. We do not recommend any tests or inspection procedures which would extend the Finite 10 year life of emergency parachutes.


EFFECTIVE DATE: 17 November 1980.
AUTHORITY: Technical Director - Parachutes GQ Defense Equipment Limited Stadium Works Portugal Road, Woking SURREY GU21 5JE UNITED KINGDOM
Phone (04862) 61321

Sparky

Is this the only official service bulletin/advisory on the lifespan of GQ rigs/parachutes? I don't have a hard copy of the lifespan bulletins on GQ products, but would like to have one to show my customers. I get ALOT of requests to repack several different models of the GQ emergency parachutes. For some reason, I remember another rigger saying they had a copy of a bulletin that said 15 years was the allowed lifespan...

Thanks,
Mike

ChutingStar.com

[bob.dino 1]

Quote

Is this the only official service bulletin/advisory on the lifespan of GQ rigs/parachutes? I don't have a hard copy of the lifespan bulletins on GQ products, but would like to have one to show my customers.

The APF have issued a Rigging Advisory Circular that matches Sparky's post.

[mark 107]

Quote

Is this [UK advisory] the only official service bulletin/advisory on the lifespan of GQ rigs/parachutes? I don't have a hard copy of the lifespan bulletins on GQ products, but would like to have one to show my customers. I get a lot of requests to repack several different models of the GQ emergency parachutes. For some reason, I remember another rigger saying they had a copy of a bulletin that said 15 years was the allowed lifespan.

My pdf packing instructions for EB80, Security 350, 650, 750, 850, 950, and 1050 all specify a life of 10 years for the system. For all but the 1050, the instructions say a factory inspection may result in an extension to 15 years.

There were some previous versions of the instructions that did not specify a life limit, and it is not clear to me that new packing instructions necessarily supersede the instructions that originally accompanied a TSO'd product, even though best practices would be to use the most current.

Mark

[councilman24 37]

Here is the text of the 2000 British manual that lists the life limit. It does reference a 1985 U.S. patent. The older manual from the 80's doesn't have it but the same patent number is also referenced in the older manual. I have it in pdf if you want me to email it to you. To big to attach here. The 850 MK 2 from 2000 also has it.

INSTRUCTION MANUAL NO 720
PARACHUTE ASSEMBLY
GQ SECURITY TYPE 350 MK 2
MRI GQ 1277
GENERAL INFORMATION
MAINTENANCE AND PACKING INSTRUCTIONS
ISSUE 2 DECEMBER 2000

CHAPTER 2
MAINTENANCE
CONTENTS
Para.
1 Introduction
2 Maintenance Notes
3 PRE-FLIGHT INSPECTION
4 Examination
5 PERIODIC INSPECTION
6 Examination
INTRODUCTION
1 This chapter details pre-flight inspection and periodic maintenance of a GQ Security Type 350 Mk 2
Parachute assembly.
WARNINGS
(1) RE-PACKING OF THIS ASSEMBLY MUST BE UNDERTAKEN BY A CERTIFIED RIGGER.
(2) REPAIR OF DAMAGED ASSEMBLIES MUST BE CARRIED OUT BY THE MANUFACTURER
OR A CERTIFIED RIGGER.
MAINTENANCE NOTES
2 The following maintenance notes are to be observed:
2.1 The life of the assembly is 15 years from date of manufacture subject to a critical inspection at 10
years.
2.2 The recommended re-packing cycle for this assembly is 120 days (four months)
2.3 France only. Direction Generale De L’Aviation Civile Letter Reference 2000/03749/SFACT/N.ME
dated 19 Juin 2000 authorises that the parachute assembly may be packed for a period of one year
under the following conditions:
a The parachute assembly has a Serial Number of 726729 of later, or has been modified
by Service Bulletin Number 18052000 version A
Additionally, the parachute assembly must remain in its transportation bag when not in use to
protect it from:
a Physical abuse
b Sun or ultra violet light
c Acid and contamination
d Atmospheric conditions outside the range 15 – 20 degrees Celsius and a PH range of
15 – 75 %

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[councilman24 37]

This one? I have it on pdf if you want me to email it.


PACKING AND SERVICING INSTRUCTION
FOR THE IRVIN-GQ LTD
EMERGENCY PARACHUTE ASSEMBLY TYPE EB80
MRI IRV 844
Issue 2 Sep 02

from above

"The finite life of the parachute assembly is 15 years from the date of manufacture subject to serviceability.
To ensure the continued safety it is essential that the parachute assembly and log card is returned to the
Irvin-GQ Ltd Quality Manager when it is 10 years old. Irvin-GQ Ltd will then undertake a thorough
inspection of the assembly and subject to its continuing good condition, revalidate it for its full life of 15
years."

And have a manual for the 250 with canopy part #73E1581-L. It doesn't have the life limit stated but I apply it.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[riggerrob 643]

I have packed at least 1,000 pilot emergency parachutes.
Does my opinion count for anything?
When I worked for Bulter Parachute Systems, we rarely repacked PEPs more than 20 years, because by then, the Southern California sun had rendered them faded, frayed and filthy.
Similarly, when I moved to Adventure Sports Loft - in Perris Valley, California - we rarely repacked anything more than 25 years old.
The only way we would repack anything older than corporate limits was if it was in pristine condition, having spent most of its life in a locker.
The other problem with older PEPs is the whole acid mesh hassle (i.e. the SACs installed in GQ Security 350s).
Try asking your customers why they are fixated on Securities. Similar, new-production rigs are available form Spekon in Germany (their Canadian dealer is based in Manitoba and he has already sold a bunch in Ontario).
All the other major PEP manufacturers (Butler, Para-Phernalia and Strong Enterprises make similar-shaped, chair type containers tailored for glider pilots.

[livnbored 0]

The thing I think I'm having an issue with is the lifespan. The assembly for the 250 was built in 81, and the last date on the packing card said 2003. I'm thinking I'm gonna have to serve this pilot some bad news. At least one of his rigs will be okay. Thanks everyone.

[linestretch 0]

This is a pretty old thread but i'm in the same situation. I have a very nice looking GQ 350 but it's old...DOM is 81. Some are arguing there's no lifespan..

http://www.parachuteshop.com/parachute_life_limit.htm

And the manual clearly states 10-15 years. And to add to the confusion, there's been repacks on this rig every year for the last 10+ years.

my pics & stuff!

[pchapman 279]

So you would have a US made GQ 350. No restriction in its manual that I recall.

If you have a modern GQ 350, as is stated in the British manual it is perhaps a "GQ SECURITY TYPE 350 MK 2". I haven't checked the manual in detail, but it lists a British CAA certification, not FAA.

Two almost separate things.

If you want another thread, here's a post I once made on one, that gives various opinions suggesting that even Irvin GQ in the UK say they have no jurisdiction over what happens with ancient US GQ rigs.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2866920#2866920

Unlike what I say early in that post, I now pretty clearly feel Irvin/GQ have no control over the old US rigs and have no way to change their lifespan. We have had the FAA's ruling since the time of that thread (2007) about how only the original restrictions apply to an FAA certified parachute unless an AD is issued.

You can still make your own rigging decision on the condition of that 1981 rig.

[JerryBaumchen 1,371]

Hi Peter,

Quote

So you would have a US made GQ 350. No restriction in its manual that I recall.

Other than the actual AD is for the SAC canopies. The 350 designation means that it originally had a SAC canopy in it.

By now, it is possible that the SAC has been replaced; but that is a different story.

Jerry Baumchen

[piisfish 140]

linestretch

Some are arguing there's no lifespan..

unless the manufacturer says otherwise (for example National wrote a maximum in their manual, so did Parachutes de France)
http://nationalparachute.com/NPII%20Owners%20Manual%20Dec%202009%20-%20New%20Address-TaperPack%20Discontinued.pdf

Quote

The formal determination of “Time / Life” or service life of a non-military personnel parachute is still open ended and non specific. Someone must take the initiative and make a judgment call to ground it. By comparison: “Personnel (military) parachutes have a determined service life (a maximum shelf life) without use of 16.5 years, and every personnel parachute is stamped with a manufacturing date that starts its life-cycle clock. A personnel parachute is also stamped with the date that it is first placed in service (PIS). From that point on, a parachute’s service life cannot exceed 12 years. The longer the unit sits on the shelf the less service life it has once placed in service.”
The Parachute Industry Association (PIA) has visited this issue without conclusion to date. Until the PIA specifies or recommends otherwise, it is the opinion of the current management at National Parachute that the maximum service life is 20 years from date of manufacture.

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[linestretch 0]

pchapman

If you have a modern GQ 350, as is stated in the British manual it is perhaps a "GQ SECURITY TYPE 350 MK 2"

Yes, the manual that I found online is a Brit MK2 version like you're saying. Thanks for clarifying. The rig itself is not British.

my pics & stuff!

[pchapman 279]

FWIW, there's a US manual in the UK Skydiver rigging manuals section:
http://www.uk-skydiver.co.uk/cms/files/file/2975-model-350/

That's April '80. There exists a May '80 addendum that changes the description of parts slightly but no change to packing, but I'm not sure if that's online.

[councilman24 37]

As noted above the manual service life and communication of service life earlier requiring factory testing at 10 years and max 15 years is from GQ in England. Your looking at the wrong manual. The US manual does not have it in it but that hasn't been published since before 1984. Link to US manual. http://www.uk-skydiver.co.uk/cms/files/file/2887-350-sbpdf/ I have never maintained that the UK life limit LEGALLY applied to the old US stuff but GQ had left the US market by the time it was issued and I believe that they would have applied it to US gear if they were still making it at the time. Anyway is was part of my justification to customers as to why I wouldn't pack them.

IF it still has a SAC in it Jerry or some other approved entity had to have performed the alternate means of compliance with the AD that grounded them all. If replaced the risers had to be modified to remove sewn in canopy and allow installation of another. At the time some/many were replaced with old model Phantom canopies (pre Aerostar) which had their own acid mesh and structural issues. These things, along with the fact that the your entire rig is over thirty five years old and no GQ pilot rig in the US is newer than 32 years old, and these are often left in gliders and other aircraft and often show significant to extreme fading is enough for me to have decided not to pack them a long time ago. But I'm the picky rigger. I won't pack 50 year old military rigs like some manufacturers and many riggers will. In fact I don't pack military containers at all because I believe my customers should have a diaper deployment system.

I know lots of riggers do pack them but I chose not to. It up to you.
BTW Butler has a statement like Nationals but it's very hard to find. And at least at one point Strong wouldn't work on their PEP's older than 20 years (they'd pack other manufacturer's gear older) but that does seem to have varied.

BTW PIA will NEVER issue a time based life limit recommendation unless committee membership changes drastically. We have decided to leave that to the manufacturers and have decided that to the rigging and technical committee members wear and condition is more important than time. And PIA is an international organization and many other countries take on the issue of life limit directly by regulation.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[linestretch 0]

Thanks everyone....very good information.

my pics & stuff!

[JerryBaumchen 1,371]

H ifolks,

Anyone know where I can get a copy of Security's 850 SafetyChute manual?

Jerry Baumchen

[councilman24 37]

http://www.uk-skydiver.co.uk/cms/files/file/2888-850-bpdf/

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[JerryBaumchen 1,371]

Hi Terry

Thanks. I had no idea to look for it under Airborne Systems.

And for the 850 MK II, here it is: http://www.uk-skydiver.co.uk/cms/files/file/2900-a850pdf/

The MK II link is much clearer and shows a slightly different procedure for laying the canopy in the pack tray.

Jerry Baumchen

[riggerrob 643]

Ignoring all the legal paperwork ..... 30-years worth of pull-testing canopy fabric weakens fabric.

On the subject of chemical testing ...... Garry Dourese (sp?) said: "Don't pour any of those nasty chemicals on my canopies." Preserve round canopies were one of the few round canopies consistently made with MIL SPEC mesh: Free Flight Enterprises.

[dpreguy 14]

PC Chapman and linestretch:
I have an original GQ Security 350 manual. Not a photocopy. It states 15 years. And regardless if it is British manual or a US manual, it does state clearly what the service life is.

The FAA letter states that (paraphrasing) if the mfg hasn't put a service life in the manual when it was sold, then the rigger may use discretion on it's being packed. Implicit in the statement in that letter, is the validation of a service life of a parachute sold with the manufacturer's manual stating that service life.

The service life or what ever term was used in the manual is 15 years. I am not at my loft to quote the term, but it is not a qualified statement (based on condition or something like that). It is a direct statement of the 'end of life' for the GQ 350. 15 years. Packing it after is your legal risk.

Para phernalia has now published a 20 year in their manuals. In my opinion, it is now a valid service life for those assemblies sold after that manual was published; but not applicable to those assemblies sold before. For those sold before, use the FAA letter. My opinion.

My further opinion; (for those rigs sold before their manuals stated a service life), is that there wouldn't even be a controversy if the mfg's would issue a service bulletin (as stated in the FAA letter) saying that their rigs are not airworthy after a certain number of years. Instead, they issue weasel worded vague statements they hope will be
accepted as retroactive. What a gutless approach. We riggers in the field are now in the unenviable position to try to explain the nuances of the conflict between the applicability of the attempts of manufacturers' to retroactively impose their 20 year positions and the FAA letter. I sometimes challenge customers to call the mfg to get their position, but so far no one has opted to do so.
When the topic is brought up at PIA meetings there is a deafening silence from the mfgs.. A manufacturer's service bulletin would be the definitive option, but don't hold your breath.

[JerryBaumchen 1,371]

Hi Walt,

Quote

if the mfg hasn't put a service life in the manual when it was sold

I do not have the FAA letter right in front me now. However, I do believe that the FAA letters says something to the effect of 'at the time of certification.' This is not when the product is sold; it is when they receive their TSO authorization.

Big difference IMO,

Jerry Baumchen

[dpreguy 14]

Jerry,
I don't have internet at the loft, (just a pathetic cell phone there requiring big finger texting) so I am home again accessing DZ.com. I also haven't reviewed the FAA letter recently, but I believe you are correct. Certification, although I would give them a bye if they put it in their manual at the time of sale.

Even so, I would prefer the mfg's end the drama and do one of two things: Shut up about trying to impose a 20 year service life retroactively, or issue a service bulletin saying their rigs are not airworthy after whatever time period they choose. A feckless bunch of knaves.
walt

[pchapman 279]

Quote

I have an original GQ Security 350 manual. Not a photocopy. It states 15 years.

Interesting, I'd like to see that, or the applicable section!

It's an old problem: One can have a bunch of old manuals on something, but how does one know if there's one missing? Especially if there's no current manufacturer's web site.

I have a few copies off the web, or the old Parachute Rigger's Reference Library, of GQ US manuals (1980-1982) and UK (2000+) manuals, but only saw life limits in newer UK publications. That's a separate company and they themselves told me they have no control over the old gear from the US. The British manual on the 350 Mk2 makes no reference to FAA certification.


I agree with you on the unclear nature of the situation -- as you said, "vague statements they hope will be retroactive".

The FAA's letter is debatably a little vague too. One can interpret it (as you and many do) that if your rig came with a manual listing a service life, that applies. That is indeed the easiest interpretation and a valid one.

But one can also interpret it as saying if there wasn't a service life on the first one built, then no limit ever applies unless an AD is issued. (Some others have gone with that, and I have tended to do so at times, although it is more of a stretch)

An example of that line of thinking, right or wrong:
If one has a 1 year old Paraphernalia, it is a TSO'd parachute -- and that very same TSO'd parachute was "sold before a service life was established". Therefore the old rules at certification applies. Even if yours came with a manual saying 20 years.

According to that thinking, Paraphernalia can't change the service life of something they've already certified (without an AD). They would have to certify a Softie Mk2 and put a life on it from the beginning.

The issue I guess is whether "a parachute ...sold before a service life was established" means the individual parachute, or that type of parachute.

After all, if you are looking at a C182 with someone, the English language does allow "This plane was first sold in 1956!" to either apply to that individual object, or all C182's in general -- as confusing as that may be.

The last big paragraph in the FAA letter says that using a "newly established service life" requires an AD. Again, is that taken on its own relative to the initial TSO (no limit originally = no limit ever)? Or relative to the prior paragraph which might be talking about whether a service life is found in the manual that came with the rig?

Without further guidance, riggers can in the end pick whatever interpretation they feel comfortable with for themselves...