How many ways can you....

[chuckakers 425]

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Actually we don't know that.

Indeed, but unlike a future jury, I'm willing to give them the benefit of doubt and assume that it would have gotten out if this had lead to an actual incident.

Even if they had tried to cover it up in the first place, I'd have to think that this thread might bring an incident to light in one way or another.

I was thinking of things like lines burns on a tandem passengers hands or legs. Just the kind of thing that can happen when your CReW class consists of "OK little Johnny, grab that parachute".

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[TheSultanofScud 0]

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[snip]

I don't get to choose the techniques and maneuvers used by my jumpers once they exit my airplane.

[snip]

You are, however, responsible for what they do after exit.

I'm not a pilot (I wish ..), I'm not American, your FARs do not apply to me, and even I know that.

Yeah, I would be responsible if they exited with a propane tank and it landed in a playground. I would be held responsible if I allowed jumpers to exit over a place that isn't designated by NOTAM or authorization as a DZ, particularly if injuries or damages resulted. I would be held responsible, as davelepka indicated, for reserves that were used or at least jumped on my airplane that were out of date. I can be held responsible for all of these things because A) they are outlined, some of them only by implication, in the FARs and B) these are things that pilots have been held accountable for in the past.

But I have enough experience, contacts in the FAA, and lawyers in my network to know that your logic is incorrect.

I am responsible, to a large extent, for my jumpers. That being said, pilots aren't regularly held accountable in this country for canopy collisions, hook turns that "go in", CRW gone bad, or most other stupid human tricks that result in body bags on the dropzone. It just doesn't happen with those behaviors. This isn't my conjecture, it's also the insight of the regional FAA leadership with whom I just got off the phone. This logic of "the pilot is always screwed" doesn't ring true.

If one of these tandems wrap, the FAA inspector's MO is to check the reserve dates, my certificates, the airplanes airworthiness, and then...guess what...he's gone.

To drive my point home even more, pilots aren't even required to know BSRs, much less the rules established by United Parachute Technologies. How many pilot have you met that could quote you the FAA regs allll day, but still didn't know a single thing about skydiving techniques or the rules established by USPA?

This is because he doesn't have to know them. I know them, because I think that is prudent for a professional and I've been flying jumpers too long to have excuses.

This knowledge doesn't make me more responsible as far as the FAA is concerned.

Now, if you are implying that I'm going to get dinged in civil court, then that is possible. But in this country, you could sued for anything. It's just a question of whether the plaintiff actually makes it stick.

I could sue people on this forum for libel (despite the fact that it hasn't happened), but that doesn't mean I can actually win.

I doubt I can contribute anything meaningful to the thread at this point, so I will bow out and wish you all the best and a safe 2010. Again, I invite any of you that find yourselves in the Minneapolis area to come out and fly with us at STC. I'll be happy to take you up.

If anyone would like to continue debating pilot responsibility with me, please send me a PM or start a new thread. I've really run out of things to say that are worth reading in this one.

Cheers.

[davelepka 4]

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This knowledge doesn't make me more responsible as far as the FAA is concerned.

Now, if you are implying that I'm going to get dinged in civil court, then that is possible. But in this country, you could sued for anything. It's just a question of whether the plaintiff actually makes it stick.

Maybe I should have specified, but I was talking about civil court.

The real trick in defedning a skydiving incident in a civil trial is convincing the jury that it was indeed an 'accident' that came from unforeseen circumstances. You need to be able to show that all reasonable precautions were taken in order to avoid an incident, and among these precautions is follwing the standard industry practice (FARs, BSRs, and mfg. reccomendations).

The problem you have is that between Youtube and this thread, it's public record that the rules were broken for a period of several years, and that you are currently aware of that. Turning a blind eye is no longer an option for you, at least in terms of a legal defense.

As far as the FAA goes, that's a meat grinder I wouldn't want to get anywhere near. You may come out of it OK, you may not. You have to admit that if given the choice, you'd rather not test those waters.

Again, I don't have anything against you or any of the staff at STC, I'm just commenting on the situation at hand, and some of the 'what if's'.

[dorbie 0]

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My safety protocol, judgment, and adherence to both FARs and BSRs are not in question here; or at my home dropzone.

You willingness to forgive of this type of behavior has brought it into question.

Sparky

YEA, you tell him!

That'll teach him to disagree with a baying mob.

[airtwardo 7]

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IMO They need to have their rating pulled because they did something dumb and dangerous that they should have known better than to do.

When it comes to placing people in peril there has to be a zero tolerance.

An example has to be made, give them a pass on this and everybody knows they get one if they ever want to disregard safety and common sense.

If an airline pilot wants to show up for work drunk he needs to know he gets walked no question, no scolding. no second chance...

If you take a position of responsibility in a professional capacity, act like you belong there, like you deserve the trust...its only funny until someone dies.
If as an instructor you don't know that going in then you should not have been there in the first place.

if ya fuck up doing something like that, own it...be adult enough to take what comes along with it and stop crying.

If they didn't know better they should not be TMs...if they knew better and did it anyway, they should not be TMs.


Any promise not to do it again is worthless, they already made that promise once and pissed on it... what has changed ? We now KNOW better.

Not to mention future legal problems if they were to kill or hurt someone...


There are also no victims as you put it, when people drive drunk...until there are.


again just my opinion, but if it were my business on the line they would be done.

Everyone always has to be "made an example of", which is really a nice way of saying that they will be punished differently and held to a different standard than everyone else.
Besides, are you about to claim you have never made a mistake? That you are perfect and noone has ever been put at risk due to anything you have done? Knowingly or unknowingly you have made mistakes, will continue too, and have and will continue to put others at risk........ Your human! So should we all look back into your history and find something to make an example out of you for. Maybe at some point you pulled lower than the SIM allows for your license. So lets pull your ratings and license so that we can make an example out of you because if we don't then people will know that they can pull as low as they want and get away with it because you did a long time ago. If we don't act now then people will be bouncing all over the place and it will be because we didn't make an example of you.
Maybe you it wasn't a low pull but some other mistake. Oh! How about base jumping! Anyone here do that? Its illegal almost everywhere so technically if you have jumped you actually broke the law, unlike the TI's!
So lets pull all your ratings and license and put you in jail and make an example out of all of you!
If we don't it will be anarchy! Anarchy I tell you!

I'm not trying to gas up the flamethrower here, but you are totally missing the point.

Yes we are all human and certainly we do make mistakes.

Mistakes can be forgiven and learned from...however flagrantly disregarding procedere on a continuing basis is NOT a mistake.

It's a major error in judgement, it smacks of irresponsibility that has to be addressed in the interest of safeguarding the safety of unaware students, and hopefully preventing any negative light thrown on the sport.

I understand that this is an emotional issue...I should be.

When it come to placing a student in harms way...yes ZERO tolerance has to be the goal.

'Pushing' beyond the stated limits is reckless and foolish, and to do it a whole bunch is nuts.

Yes I have made mistakes, and it's likely I pushed the limits a time or two...but without question I've NEVER knowingly put someone else in danger, much less someone that was paying to minimise the risk to them-self.

Everyone always has to be "made an example of", which is really a nice way of saying that they will be punished differently and held to a different standard than everyone else.

~as far as that statement goes, I've read it 1/2 a dozen times and I apologize but I have no idea what you're talking about?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[mjosparky 4]

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My safety protocol, judgment, and adherence to both FARs and BSRs are not in question here; or at my home dropzone.

You willingness to forgive of this type of behavior has brought it into question.

Sparky

YEA, you tell him!

That'll teach him to disagree with a baying mob.

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Screwups can be unrecoverable and fatal it pays to listen to those who have learned the lessons for us. There's a degree of safety that can come with the humility to learn from our betters in the sport. Not just the prolific opinions but master riggers and contemplative gear manufacturers who often make recommendations based on marginally improving your odds over a range of conditions and hundreds of thousands of jumps. Ignoring it may not kill you but if enough people ignore it might just kill someone somewhere sometime eventually.

Does this look familiar?

I think what the “baying mob” is trying to say is similar to what this post is stating. It was learned over 20 years ago that this behavior was dangerous to the point of being potentially fatal. The fact that the TI’s in question went through a TI course shows that they were aware of it and at the time agreed with it. Their one job as a TI is risk management on a jump that someone else has paid for. Instead they turned that jump into a playground for their own enjoyment. Even if the passenger knew of the Crew in advance I seriously doubt the level of added risk brought up and explained.

Didn’t you used to have a real name?

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[tHeO 0]

Do NOT mistake skydive Twin Cities for a club. They are a private DZ!!!

[stratostar 5]

A little late to the dance are we, this has already been covered and I posted my mistake. (see post #93)

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I missed the #63 thing. Phree, your right not where I had in mind, and after see some of the folks on staff, I'm even more surprised if some of the implied players is true.

Please move along now rubbernecker.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[Hjeada 0]

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did the third guy on the hop n pop chop??? i keep looking at it and it looks like the canopy is off and a freebag has appeared???

I can say with 100% certainty that there was no chop and subsequent reserve deployment since that was my 5000' hop'n'pop during student status...

Dudeist Skydiver #0511