Reserve repack question

[Andybilly 0]

Can someone tell me how tell when a reserve needs to be repacked, ie is there paperwork with every rig

Thank you.

[darkwing 5]

Note: He is in the UK apparently, so responses need to consider that. Of course I'd generally be astonished that such info is not part of the instructions he got as a student.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[Andybilly 0]

Yes I am in the UK. That sort of information probably was in my training, but I have to confess that that sort of information was lower on the list of things to remember.

[riggerrob 643]

In the UK, most skydivers get their reserves repacked every 6 months/180 days.
There should be a little paper, reserve packing data card shoved in a pocket near your reserve pin. Ask a local instructor to show you exactly where.

Note that if you plan to take a skydiving vacation in the USA, Americans insist that all TSOed parachutes (including Javelins) be repacked on a 120 day cycle.

[Andybilly 0]

Panic over! thanks Riggerrob I have found it.

[rigger_john 0]

You should also have a Record of Inspection sheet. BPA form 112. You need both bits of paper for you rig to be allowed past the gear check when you turn up at the drop zone.

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

[reusch 0]

Note that if you plan to take a skydiving vacation in the USA, Americans insist that all TSOed parachutes (including Javelins) be repacked on a 120 day cycle.
------------------
Please note
FAA Cap. 105.49 Foreign parachutists and equipment.

....
(ii) The reserve parachute must be packed in accordance with the foreign parachutist's civil
aviation authority requirements, by a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person
acceptable to the Administrator.

For foreign Parachutists and equipment all-over the word the rules of country of origin are significant.

Guido Reusch
German Master-Rigger Association

Guido Reusch

[mark 107]

Quote

Please note
FAA Cap. 105.49 Foreign parachutists and equipment.

....
(ii) The reserve parachute must be packed in accordance with the foreign parachutist's civil
aviation authority requirements, by a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person
acceptable to the Administrator.

For foreign Parachutists and equipment all over the world the rules of country of origin are significant.

I think you've taken the FAR quote out of context, as it applies only to non-approved (that is, not TSO'd) equipment. US jumpers, and non-US jumpers using US-TSO'd equipment (for example, a Brit using a Javelin & PD reserve) in the US must have their equipment packed within the last 120 days by an FAA rigger.

Mark

[reusch 0]

Here is the full FAR quote to see if I toke something out of the context.
FAR .49 doesn't say anything about TSO or Non-TSO Equipment!
And it doesn't matter what kind of equipment I like to use if I like to jump in the states as a foreign jumper!

You are wrong, Mark!

May the dropzone-Rigger doesn't like that, may the dropzoneowner doesn't like that too - but that's what FAA likes to do!
A Javelin or PD-Reserve with your FAA-TSO is an unapproved Equipment in our country. And if you see how your US-manufactories obtain the TSO and how the "Grandfahtering-System" with all the minory changes was used, better you are not so proud on you "TSO-EQUIPMENT". For sure we will come to this back later!
-------------------------------
§105.49 Foreign parachutists and equipment.
(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may
allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft with an unapproved foreign
parachute system unless --
(1) The parachute system is worn by a foreign parachutist who is the owner of that system.
(2) The parachute system is of a single-harness dual parachute type.
(3) The parachute system meets the civil aviation authority requirements of the foreign
parachutist's country.
(4) All foreign non-approved parachutes deployed by a foreign parachutist during a parachute
operation conducted under this section shall be packed as follows --
(i) The main parachute must be packed by the foreign parachutist making the next parachute
jump with that parachute, a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person acceptable to the
Administrator.
(ii) The reserve parachute must be packed in accordance with the foreign parachutist's civil
aviation authority requirements, by a certificated parachute rigger, or any other person
acceptable to the Administrator.

regards,

Guido Reusch

[sundevil777 102]

Quote

§105.49 Foreign parachutists and equipment.
(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may
allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft with an unapproved foreign
parachute system unless --

None of this section applies because the equipment is approved.

Because the equipment is approved, the usual rules apply, and with them the 120 day req't.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mjosparky 4]

You are wrong.

§105.49 Foreign parachutists and equipment.
(a) No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may
allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft with an unapproved foreign parachute system unless --

(4) All foreign non-approved parachutes deployed by a foreign parachutist during a parachute operation conducted under this section shall be packed as follows --

Definition of Approved: Part 105.3

Approved parachute means a parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a Technical Standard Order (C–23 series), or a personnel-carrying U.S. military parachute (other than a high altitude, high speed, or ejection type) identified by a Navy Air Facility, an Army Air Field, and Air Force-Navy drawing number, an Army Air Field order number, or any other military designation or specification number.

If you equipment meet the above definition it is covered by Part 105.43.

No person may conduct a parachute operation using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow any person to conduct a parachute operation from that aircraft using a single-harness, dual-parachute system, unless that system has at least one main parachute, one approved reserve parachute, and one approved single person harness and container that are packed as follows:


(b) The reserve parachute must have been packed by a certificated parachute rigger—

(1) Within 120 days before the date of its use, if its canopy, shroud, and harness are composed exclusively of nylon, rayon, or similar synthetic fiber or material that is substantially resistant to damage from mold, mildew, and other fungi, and other rotting agents propagated in a moist environment; or

See Tom Buchanan's paper on the subject. (attached)

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

A Javelin or PD-Reserve with your FAA-TSO is an unapproved Equipment in our country. And if you see how your US-manufactories obtain the TSO and how the "Grandfahtering-System" with all the minory changes was used, better you are not so proud on you "TSO-EQUIPMENT". For sure we will come to this back later!

You throw a lot of rocks for someone who hides who he is.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rigger_john 0]

He has a point though

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

[reusch 0]

Do you think we are not working and jumping with approved parachutes? There is no unapproved parachute Equipment around the word, but some parts do not have FAA-TSO.
What do you think we are jumping with? Pillows, papertowels or blankets?
C-23d is not for US-citizens only. It is used with 8015b as a standard worldwide!
And we are working with certificated parachute riggers as well!
You are on one's high horse!

If you guys step over to Europa nobody would ever comment about your US-Riggers, not because that they be in the fore, no! Because we will accept your rules at your country with your insurance and your licence! Rules by country of origin!

Please do not comment with:" But that's our law, made by FAA....."

Your Manufactories mostly gave us permission for repackcycle about 1 Year (PD, Sun Path, RWS,.......) and we like to use it since 2002 now. Skydivers, Organisations and Riggers are happy with this regulation, because it comes from people how should know better than anybody else what to do.

In according with your interpretaion it should be better to jump in the US with an "approved equipment" so we could follow our rules (1 Year), than jumping an "approved" Equipment!!!!

Blow me down!

US-People jumping a Javelin with PD-R have to repack all 120 Days - rules by FAA, pencilpack possible!
We european-people jumping a Javelin with PD-R have to repack ones a year - rules by manufactory riggers only!

That's an absolute scream!

If we talk about approved equipment, here is the 10,000 $ question.

What is the commonalty of this 4 rigs:

Javelin Odyssee
Vector III Micron
Mirage G4
and Power Racer ??????????

[riggerrob 643]

The FAA's "foreign gear" waiver was originally intended to allow foreigners to legally jump foreign-made gear (i.e. a Canadian jumping a Bullet or a Frenchman jumping an ATOM) out of American-registered airplanes at American DZs.

Now that Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, the European Union, etc. have adopted FAA TSO standards, FAA foreign gear waivers are rapidly becoming obsolete.

And on the subject of a one-year repack cycle ... that is effectively what we have in Canada. Back around 2000, CSPA changed the Canadian reserve repack cycle to 6 months. In practice, that means that most Canadian skydivers get their reserves repacked once a year: in the spring. Since the skydiving season only lasts 6 months, at most Canadian DZs, they just let their reserves "expire" in the autumn.

[mark 107]

Quote

Do you think we are not working and jumping with approved parachutes?

Yes, in some cases.

From a US point of view, an "[a]pproved parachute means a parachute manufactured under a type certificate or a Technical Standard Order (C-23 series), or a personnel-carrying U.S. military parachute (other than a high altitude, high speed, or ejection type) identified by a Navy Air Facility, an Army Air Field, and Air Force-Navy drawing number, an Army Air Field order number, or any other military designation or specification number." That's a quote from FAR 105.3. By definition, equipment must have a US TSO to be FAA-approved.

PdF is one manufacturer that has chosen not to get US FAA approval for their equipment. If you are working on and jumping with a PdF reserve or harness/container, you are using components that are not FAA-approved. That is not a reflection on their design, quality, or safety. It simply means that a US citizen cannot legally use a PdF reserve or harness/container to skydive at a US civilian dropzone.

Mark

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

Do you think we are not working and jumping with approved parachutes?

We were discussing equipment manufactured under TSO-C23…. If the gear you are jumping is manufactured under TSO-C23…. and you jump it in the US, the FAA requires that the reserve be packed within the last 120 days by a “certificated parachute rigger” and the main by the person jumping it next or a “certificated parachute rigger” within the same time period. Is that so hard to understand.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Andybilly 0]

Rigger_john, how do I get this form if I bought my Rig from the USA?

[rigger_john 0]

Quote

Rigger_john, how do I get this form if I bought my Rig from the USA?

If it was packed by a F.A.A. Rigger in the states, it won't have form 112. However BPA rules allow for the rig to be used without form 112 as long as it was packed by an F.A.A. Rigger outside the UK.

The reserve pack job is valid for the F.A.A. stated 120 days. After that it has to be packed by an Advanced Packer or a Rigger then it will be good for 6 months.

Hope that helps

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

[rigger_john 0]

Quote

Now that Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, the European Union, etc. have adopted FAA TSO standards,

I would say that the USA has adopded the European standards as 8015b is the standard for the 23d.

I think the point reusch was trying to make, is that most US manufactures ignore the TSO and put thier new equipment through as minor changes to designs approved under TSO 23c.

hence his list

Javelin Odyssee
Vector III Micron
Mirage G4
and Power Racer ??????????

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

[JPDECHENE 0]

Hallo Guido,

I have just read carefully the part 105. In the § 105.3 Definitions, the foreign parachutist is defined as : "a parachutist who is neither a U.S. citizen or a resident alien and is participating in parachute operations within the United States using a parachute equipment not manufactured in the United States. So I am afraid that our US friends are, at least legally, right; a German or Belgian citizen visiting the US to jump and having a Javelin equipment is clear : the 120 days repack cycle applies.
Now I can understand that you disagree (as much as I do) on the spirit of the rule; we, as European Riggers, do our job a responsible way and the quality of our work is not lower than anyone else's; in addition, as you mentioned, most of the US manufacturers have accepted the extension of the repack cycle. I even suspect that most of our colleagues would agree to some extension of that cycle (see their efforts to get from the FAA the 180 days).
But, at least in the US, riggers do not make the law, the FAA does and, if you and me agree with the rule or not, the rule is the rule and it must be observed.
We are trying to unify the rules within Europe,which is no fully obtained and let's hope that the next step will be having one voice for the whole World Skydiving Community; the 400- way has superbly proved that we can work as a group on a World scale.

JPD
Belgian Parachute Riggers Association

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

I would say that the USA has adopded the European standards as 8015b is the standard for the 23d.

The AS in AS8015-B stands for Aerospace Standard. It was written by the Society of Automotive Engineers,SAE, not adopted Europe or any where else. It was founded in 1905 in New York City. As you mentioned, it is the minimum performance standard used by TSO-C23b. The standard for the TSO-C23c that you mention was AS8015A. They can be found in the Parachute Riggers Handbook, FAA-H-8083-17, pages A-27 and A-39.

In Europe you JTSO, Joint Technical Standard Order issued by Joint Aviation Authorities. In respect to parachutes, it is almost a carbon copy of the FAA version. As JPDECHENE said, it’s not a question of who is better; it is a question what the rules allow in the different countries.

Quote

I think the point reusch was trying to make, is that most US manufactures ignore the TSO and put thier new equipment through as minor changes to designs approved under TSO 23c.

And the point is?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[rigger_john 0]

Quote

The AS in AS8015-B stands for Aerospace Standard. It was written by the Society of Automotive Engineers,SAE, not adopted Europe or any where else. It was founded in 1905 in New York City. As you mentioned, it is the minimum performance standard used by TSO-C23b. The standard for the TSO-C23c that you mention was AS8015A. They can be found in the Parachute Riggers Handbook, FAA-H-8083-17, pages A-27 and A-39.

In Europe you JTSO, Joint Technical Standard Order issued by Joint Aviation Authorities. In respect to parachutes, it is almost a carbon copy of the FAA version. As JPDECHENE said, it’s not a question of who is better; it is a question what the rules allow in the different countries.

Fair point, well made

Quote

I think the point reusch was trying to make, is that most US manufactures ignore the TSO and put thier new equipment through as minor changes to designs approved under TSO 23c.

And the point is?

Are you serious? you don't see any issue pretending that the original mirage made by skydive gunter et al requires just a few minor changes to turn it into the mirage we see today?

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

[riggerrob 643]

Quote

I think the point reusch was trying to make, is that most US manufactures ignore the TSO and put their new equipment through as minor changes to designs approved under TSO 23c.

And the point is?

Are you serious? you don't see any issue pretending that the original mirage made by skydive gunter et al requires just a few minor changes to turn it into the mirage we see today?

[JerryBaumchen 1,354]

'minor changes' huh? I find that some folks who advocate that all parachute equipment should have a set time-frame to comply with the latest standard do not do that with their own products. Hm??????

It is my understanding that the Vector III & the Racer are still TSO'd under C23b (I may be wrong but I think I am correct).

The ref. document in C23b is NAS 804.

Worldwide standard? Personally, I would prefer that the gov'ts just get out of regulating sport parachutes. Let the marketplace decide; that is really what is going on anyway.

Rob is correct, the FAA boys know zip about parachutes (I do have some experience with them) but they will never admit it; after all, they still have the 'control.'

Rant over,

Jerry