nsh 0 #1 January 24, 2010 Hi All, From what I got from SIM, the requirements for pre-planned breakaway is C license. I think that the safe cutaway practice (with proper equipment, say, with two reserves) could be beneficial for even an AFF student (well... or at least A-licensed skydiver), because the malfunctions that require cutaway will not wait until you get your C. I have not had any malfunction requiring cutaway yet, but I would really love to practice the intentional cutaway before I actually have to have my first unintentional one. I believe if I had previous a cutaway experience, the unplanned cutaway situation would be much more controllable for me... Could anybody please comment on this idea? Do I misunderstand anything in SIM requirements? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #2 January 24, 2010 Try a search, this has been debated a few times here before. Intentional cutaways are dangerous because of the added gear (2 reserves are dangerous in that you cannot cut either of them away should you want or need to, you get more handles too) and change in procedures, so these should only be done by experienced skydivers IMO. I did 2 myself, but after having performed 2 "real" cutaways for the first one. A much better option is to demo the reserve you have as a main since it flies and flares quite differently from modern sports mains, and if you have any doubt whatsoever in your reserve procedures do not jump until you cleared those doubts with your instructor. Try to get in a hanging harness and practice that, a lot. Leave the intentionals for (much) later, if you still want to by then and can find the required gear. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nsh 0 #3 January 24, 2010 Thanks for the reply. I tried to search but couldn't find anything relevant. Actually, my main concern was not about flying the reserve canopy (even though it should have been a concern - the advice to try reserve as a main makes perfect sense to me). I did had a practice in a hanging harness... but I do not think that it is the same like while in a sky. Maybe I am wrong. Will have to wait for my either C or the malfunction (whichever comes first, hehe ). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #4 January 24, 2010 QuoteI do not think that it is the same like while in a sky Since most cutaways are probably due to rapidly spining mals…an intentional cutaway isn't going to be like most mals either!The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nsh 0 #5 January 24, 2010 Very true... unless you simulate it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #6 January 24, 2010 Interesting about the C license. Rules vary - in Canada one only needs a Solo certificate, not even the A licence. (Manual deployment procedures appropriate to a belly mounted no-pilot-chute reserve need to be trained and signed off, however.) Still, whatever the rules, it isn't usually something done while someone is still a relative novice. It could be done more often but the big thing is that there usually isn't any really appropriate gear with which to do an intentional. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fencebuster 7 #7 January 25, 2010 I have had 4 cut-aways and none of them were in a situation that was overwhelming. Main out . . . is it there, square , controllable and landable? If not . . . cut away. I have subscribed to changing the decision and act altitude to 3000 if I have time because of my early 1st cutaway experience (second AFF jump) where I knew I had a major problem at about 4500 feet worked it for a little bit and then decided I would make my decision and act at 3000. All but one of my cut-aways involved a spinning main, so that is definitely a stressor not present in an intentional cut-away with three canopies. IMO, don't be in a hurry to experience a cutaway, but practice your emergency procedures, and, if faced with the situation that calls for the cut-away, do it. Trust the gear. It works.Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208 AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chuckakers 425 #8 January 25, 2010 QuoteSince most cutaways are probably due to rapidly spining mals.... That's a leap. Let's not go from trying to be helpful to adding to misunderstandings.Chuck Akers D-10855 Houston, TX Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #9 January 25, 2010 >I have not had any malfunction requiring cutaway yet, but I would really >love to practice the intentional cutaway before I actually have to have my >first unintentional one. Use a hanging harness ten feet over a pool, and use a real cutaway system. That's about as real as it gets. >I believe if I had previous a cutaway experience, the unplanned >cutaway situation would be much more controllable for me... History has shown that this isn't something that most people have trouble with, oddly enough. Even newer jumpers report it being almost automatic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lekstrom10k 0 #10 January 25, 2010 Most intentional cutaways on a third canopy. seperable D-ringa are attached on your main lift webs. You jump deploy the canopy from the deployment bag cutaway Then after freefall open your normal canopy. Its mostly for demos not a training device. As stated PD comes to demo rigs at a boogie they have reserves set up as mains . It is a good time to try what your potential reserves fly like. The canopies have bridle and bag attaching rings on top Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #11 January 25, 2010 Quote Most intentional cutaways on a third canopy. seperable D-ringa are attached on your main lift webs. You jump deploy the canopy from the deployment bag cutaway Then after freefall open your normal canopy. Its mostly for demos not a training device. As stated PD comes to demo rigs at a boogie they have reserves set up as mains . It is a good time to try what your potential reserves fly like. The canopies have bridle and bag attaching rings on top Just to add~ Before someone just attaches D rings to their harness they need to consult with a rigger that understand the harness stress and geometry regarding a terminal opening on those rings. My harness was specifically designed for the attachment of said D rings. I wouldn't want my life to depend on the harness holding together in a way it wasn't designed or intended to. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=80358; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=80356; http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=80357; ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sletzer 3 #13 January 25, 2010 Some larger boogies will have gear manufacturers demoing their systems that enable you to do an intentional cutaway. I was able to do one at last year's Skyfest with a UPT Skyhook Demo. I believe they required something like 100 jumps and $50. Totally worth the cost. It's intimidating to use a more complex system with the extra handles, but they drill the new ep's into your head- and if you're not comfortable with it, don't go. I'd be willing to bet that just such an opportunity might pop up if you go to the Skydive Expo in March.I will be kissing hands and shaking babies all afternoon. Thanks for all your support! *bows* SCS #8251 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nsh 0 #14 January 25, 2010 I was going to do it in Sebastian this new year (there was going to be SkyHook demos with intentional cutaway there). But DZ staff members say they will stick to USPA/SIM requirements on that which is "C" license. And I must admit, that although I badly wanted to try it, I appreciate DZ staff doing the business that way. :-) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #15 January 25, 2010 Quote Very true... unless you simulate it. Your Kidding right? MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nsh 0 #16 January 25, 2010 Sure thing, I did not mean packing the mal. But I thought that cutting away while doing intentional spiraling on the decent altitude would simulate it (maybe, preferably with RSL off). Does it sound like a too crazy idea? I was going to discuss that with somebody experienced before doing this anyway... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dragon2 2 #17 January 25, 2010 QuoteDoes it sound like a too crazy idea? YES. ciel bleu, Saskia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nsh 0 #18 January 25, 2010 I am OK if it just sounded crazy but it'd be safe enough to do. Any safety concerns that could be added on the top of a regular intentional breakaway safety issues, please? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sparkie 0 #19 January 25, 2010 Quote I am OK if it just sounded crazy but it'd be safe enough to do. Any safety concerns that could be added on the top of a regular intentional breakaway safety issues, please? how many do you want on top of the issues mentioned above.....? No point in continuing the same line of questioning... Cutaways and reserves are there for emergency use.............Why would you @ your experience level want to create such an emergency? What do you seek to learn? You can demo reserves using them as mains. As for intentionally cutting away while in a self induced spiral... I would only advise that if you are tired of living and want to try something new. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #20 January 25, 2010 The range of responses is kind of funny, even if they are all valid and have a point. Do an intentional? "Don't worry about it, if you keep yourself properly trained, when you actually have a mal, your actions will be automatic and be no problem anyway." Do an intentional with a spiralling main (pop a brake)? "Oh my god, no, that's dangerous!" So being stuck with a spiralling main when low and you don't expect it, seems to sound like no problem, while doing it higher when you are ready for it is dangerous. To reconcile those very opposite statements one may have to believe that: a) that simulating an emergency can be dangerous. (Yes, sometimes it can be.) and b) a real malfunction emergency is not really dangerous. (Well, hopefully not too dangerous if you are well trained. At least cutting away is very safe compared to the alternative of not cutting away!) and c) the improvement in safety you might get from the experience of an intentional is not worth the risk taken to get that experience. (That can be debated.) My personal opinion is still that you don't need to do an intentional but it is a good experience. Like anything new to you in skydiving, get some good advice first. I wouldn't object to it being done by people with well under 200 jumps. I wouldn't recommend the spiralling thing for ones first intentional, if one is still fairly junior. And anyone wanting to try it, should first do a jump or two where they play with popping a toggle after opening. The accelerating turn can be a little disorientating when one isn't actively steering a spiral. And it is good experience in how one's canopy behaves similar to if one does pop a toggle on opening. As for doing the spiralling intentional if one has an RSL hooked up, that I'm less sure about the answer. I'll leave that alone. I'd rather have the time to get stable after the chop. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #21 January 25, 2010 Quote Quote Does it sound like a too crazy idea? YES. u put on that flame-resistant gear, nsh!? “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #22 January 25, 2010 Quote As for doing the spiralling intentional if one has an RSL hooked up, that I'm less sure about the answer. I'll leave that alone. I'd rather have the time to get stable after the chop. So you're saying an RSL is safe for un-planned chops, but less so if the cutaway is intentional? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nsh 0 #23 January 25, 2010 Hey, thanks a lot for the precise summary. I really appreciate your (and everybody's else, who is eligible ) constructive response. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nsh 0 #24 January 25, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Does it sound like a too crazy idea? YES. u put on that flame-resistant gear, nsh!? I'd say waterproof will make more use then... Well, you know... it might be too scary to me, hehehe Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nsh 0 #25 January 25, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Does it sound like a too crazy idea? YES. u put on that flame-resistant gear, nsh!? I'd say waterproof will make more use then... Well, you know... it might be too scary to me, hehehe anyway... why do you ask about me wearing flame-resistant gear, virgin-burner? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
