Confiscate bogus reserve pack job?

[riggerrob 643]

Should a DZO confiscate a bogus reserve repack job?

This problem arose recently at Gananoque, Ontario.
The reserve freebag was inserted into the container, inverted, with a a half-twist in the lines.
Allegedly, the rigger - whose seal was on the reserve - died several years ago.
Since the owner "forgot" his reserve packing data card and "forgot" who repacked his reserve, the DZO confiscated the reserve until his memory improves.


"Hello everyone, seems we have a little problem on our hands. Somebody has been Inspecting and Re-Packing reserves under the seal "I-R-8." According to Will McCarthy, the gentleman who brought this to our attention, the owner of this seal number is deceased. I strongly urge everyone to check their jumper's gear for this seal number. I have attached a letter from Will that goes into more detail about this offence. Rest assured that the CSPA will investigate this matter and find the cause of the problem. If anyone has any questions or concerns, feel free to contact me at 403-809-5658 or 403-366-5272. You can also e-mail me back at this address, however, I will be out of town for the weekend, and will not be able to respond. Thank you all, and have a great day!

Sean La Rose
Mid-Western Director
Canadian Sport Parachuting Association"

Sorry, but my computer refused to forward the letter from Will McCarthy.

[tr027 0]

Speaking in and regarding the U.S., no. The equipment is not contraband, and the DZO has no claim whatsoever to it, so confiscating could potentially bring up litigation/legal issues.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[kingbunky 3]

confiscate the gear, no. as someone pointed out, the dzo has no claim to the gear.

ground him, yes. if the dzo assumed the seal was legit, it would mean the pack job was way out of date and until it was repacked, the jumper wouldn't be able to jump legally anyway.

why did the dzo open the reserve?

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[mattjw916 2]

Can a DZO confiscate a car if it's illegally parked too?

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[ChrisL 2]

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Can a DZO confiscate a car if it's illegally parked too?

The DZO better be well prepared to defend himself if he ever wants to confiscate my rig

__

My mighty steed

[leapdog 0]

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confiscate the gear, no. as someone pointed out, the dzo has no claim to the gear.

ground him, yes. if the dzo assumed the seal was legit, it would mean the pack job was way out of date and until it was repacked, the jumper wouldn't be able to jump legally anyway.

why did the dzo open the reserve?

DOn't ground the jumper, you just don't let the gear get jumped until it can be aired, inspected, and repacked by a rigger who is current and compitent and has his seal and the card signed matching the seal.

Gunnery Sergeant of Marines
"I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker

[tombuch 0]

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Speaking in and regarding the U.S., no. The equipment is not contraband, and the DZO has no claim whatsoever to it, so confiscating could potentially bring up litigation/legal issues.

I think the issue here is that the rig had a clearly bogus seal and the DZO wanted to know who had packed it so other potentially dangerous (or at least illegal) pack jobs could be taken off the market. If the jumper had said who had actually packed or sealed the rig I think the DZO wouldn't need to confiscate the rig. In this case, the hope is the loss of the rig will generate some honest answers from the jumper in question.

If that happened in the US and I identified the bogus seal I'd expect an answer from the jumper. Absent that I would probably make an effort to confiscate the rig until the jumper provided the name of the person using the seal. If the jumper didn't like that approach I'd be happy to let him keep the rig and then call the police so they could figure out how to deal with his fraudulent use of a federal certification. I'd also pass word along to USPA and let the regional director decide how to handle it from an administrative perspective.

I think the DZO is to be applauded for recognizing and dealing with the issue, and doing everything he can to identify who is using the seal.

Yup, you can call me a dick, but I think using a bogus seal is being a dick to the pilot and the DZO. Using a bogus seal is illegal. It's that simple.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[fcajump 164]

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Should a DZO confiscate a bogus reserve repack job?

Actually it could be argued that in the US the DZO does not, but the local police and/or FAA could as this could be construed as violation of federal law (FAR's) and willful endangerment on the part of the packer who passed it off as conforming to the repack requirements.

Just my $.02

Ok... 3...2...1... blast shields UP!

Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[Hooknswoop 19]

Right, the DZO could have called the FAA, the police, USPA, etc. He gave the guy a chance and a break by dealing with it on a local level and not involving the authorities. Does he/she have the authority to confiscate it? I don't think so, but the alternative is to call someone with the authority to confiscate the gear. So, givent he choice, I would think the jumper would prefer the DZO didn't call the authorities.

Sounds like someone packed the reserve illegally, the jumper with the rig got caught, time to man up.

Derek

[stratostar 5]

I would say if someone came to the dz and got busted like this the rig would get lost till the police or the FAA showed up, it is called citizens arrest of the rig and or jumper could be detained under the law untill the cops got there. JMO
But I'm sure other will say I'm wrong.
~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[tr027 0]

We're talking about theft, plain and simple, Grand Theft Person in particular. The feable attempts at justifications for theft don't make it any less a crime. Sure you can expect an explaination, sure you can ground him, but once you steal from him you open the door of liability.
Perhaps Mr. Lawrocket can help with the technical details, but theft is still theft.

"The evil of the world is made possible by nothing but the sanction you give it. " -John Galt from Atlas Shrugged, 1957

[MarkM 0]

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We're talking about theft, plain and simple

This is why you'd want to call the FAA ASAP and ask them what you want done with the gear. If they then tell you to hold it pending an investigation, then it wouldn't be theft.

[NelKel 0]

What if you grabbed a few of his tandem rigs and held them hostage till he gave you back your gear?
Not saying it right or wrong just wondering?

_________________________________________

Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[Andy9o8 2]

Those who said the DZO should either ground the rig or ground the jumper are right.
Call the cops and/or FAA and spread the word to other DZ's - right.
Confiscate the rig? Maybe morally right, but legally - absolutely unlawful.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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We're talking about theft, plain and simple

This is why you'd want to call the FAA ASAP and ask them what you want done with the gear. If they then tell you to hold it pending an investigation, then it wouldn't be theft.

Until the rig is jumped, what crime has been committed? I can have any rig I want at the DZ, with or w/o TSO or properly documented maintenance. I'm not sure the FAA has any authority over the rig until I jump with it.

For Great Deals on Gear

[piisfish 140]

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Those who said the DZO should either ground the rig or ground the jumper are right.
Call the cops and/or FAA and spread the word to other DZ's - right.
Confiscate the rig? Maybe morally right, but legally - absolutely unlawful.

Accidentally pull the reserve handle - RIGHT

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[fcajump 164]

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We're talking about theft, plain and simple

This is why you'd want to call the FAA ASAP and ask them what you want done with the gear. If they then tell you to hold it pending an investigation, then it wouldn't be theft.

Until the rig is jumped, what crime has been committed? I can have any rig I want at the DZ, with or w/o TSO or properly documented maintenance. I'm not sure the FAA has any authority over the rig until I jump with it.

I would disagree... something about misrepresenting information on government required documentation on TSO'ed gear. Got to be something they would charge somebody with...

Just my $.02
J

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[tso-d_chris 0]

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We're talking about theft, plain and simple

This is why you'd want to call the FAA ASAP and ask them what you want done with the gear. If they then tell you to hold it pending an investigation, then it wouldn't be theft.

Until the rig is jumped, what crime has been committed? I can have any rig I want at the DZ, with or w/o TSO or properly documented maintenance. I'm not sure the FAA has any authority over the rig until I jump with it.

I would disagree... something about misrepresenting information on government required documentation on TSO'ed gear. Got to be something they would charge somebody with...

Just my $.02
J

It's not gov't required until the rig is jumped, is it?

For Great Deals on Gear

[fcajump 164]

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We're talking about theft, plain and simple

This is why you'd want to call the FAA ASAP and ask them what you want done with the gear. If they then tell you to hold it pending an investigation, then it wouldn't be theft.

Until the rig is jumped, what crime has been committed? I can have any rig I want at the DZ, with or w/o TSO or properly documented maintenance. I'm not sure the FAA has any authority over the rig until I jump with it.

I would disagree... something about misrepresenting information on government required documentation on TSO'ed gear. Got to be something they would charge somebody with...

Just my $.02
J

It's not gov't required until the rig is jumped, is it?

Actually it is required if it is on the plane (same as with PEP's)...

It might also fall into the charge of tampering with TSO'ed aircraft equipment, but now we are stretching my knowledge base...

Besides, most Fed's can make something very uncomfortable when there is obvious attempts to deceive when it comes to aviation safety issues...

J

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[rehmwa 2]

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Confiscate the rig? Maybe morally right, but legally - absolutely unlawful.

I don't even think it's morally right. A rigger or a DZO is not authorized to administer any aspect of law.

Grounding the rig or jumper at your DZ is certainly correct - notifying other DZOs and the USPA is certainly morally right even if not required. Calling the FAA and then following their instructions (and no more) is correct.

But taking any illegal action is no better than beating up a kid you see shoplifting in your store. It crosses a legal line best handled by those officially authorized.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[bigway 4]

He would be in the right confiscating the rig and keeping the jumper on the premises while he called the FAA and the police. It is called a citizens arrest. There are probably multiple charges here and the DZO could detain him on fraud to begin with.

Sounds like the DZO gave the guy a chance, I think it is now this DZO's duty to call in the authorities cause if this is to continue and there is a death then the DZO is now part of this circle and should be liable if he has not made contact to the authorities.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Pilks 0]

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He would be in the right confiscating the rig and keeping the jumper on the premises while he called the FAA and the police. It is called a citizens arrest. There are probably multiple charges here and the DZO could detain him on fraud to begin with.
reply]

I'm not sure what State you are a licensed attorney in, but unless you live in Mayberry, you are not going to be able to detain someone and confiscate their gear calling it "citizens arrest." You are likely to be liable for the civil offenses of conversion and false imprisionment. Of course, my knowledge only extends to the United States legal system, and I expessly cannot speak to the laws of other Countries.

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[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

Hi bigway,

I'm with you on this one. My son is a prosecuting attorney and his advice to me is 'never even think about a so-called citizen's arrest.'

Just my old $0.02 worth.

Jerry

[bigway 4]

Sorry, i projected that with false knowledge.
I thought that was something you would be able to do in America as well as the country i am from.

The rest of my statement stands though.
It is now the responsibility for the DZO to notify the authorities or he could be also held responsible if something terrible was to happen. He has now made him part of this and needs to report it. I believe any stand up DZO owner or rigger should report this if they care about the safety of our sport.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[JerryBaumchen 1,363]

Ooops, wrong 'response to' problem.

Sorry to confuse anyone out there.

Jerry