Floating reserve ripcord

[Travman 6]

On the weekend whilst doing 4-way training with my team I had a floating reserve handle. Our camera man noticed it first and came down to our level opposite me to get my attention, next my opposite and piece partner noticed it. My piece partner stopped taking up grips (side body on the reserve side was the next point) and my opposite starting pointing at her reserve handle and me. I immediately knew what she was getting at since I had noticed the camera man as well, but I was hoping she was pointing out a bad spot. I looked down - we were over the DZ and my next thought involved colourful language. The camera man pitched high to give me more space because he knew I wasn’t going to track much. I did a short track then had to decide which handle to pull. I initially thought to pull silver, but then I thought I’d rather deploy my main so I could inspect the situation but be prepared for a two-out. I dumped my main, ensured my airspace was clear and then checked the reserve cable. There was no more slack than usual, I had a couple of goes at trying to get it into the pouch but the tension on the webbing made it impossible. Still above my hard deck, I made the decision not to cut-away but to land my main.

During the canopy ride down I was remembering Adrian Nicholls’ CYPRES fire incident so I kept my inputs light and did a basic straight in approach, not my usual 180 approach. I landed without incident and checked the reserve pin, which hadn’t shifted from its usual position.

After thinking about the situation, I felt next time I would deploy my reserve as I found the canopy ride to be quite nerve racking. I spoke to an instructor afterwards and he said the “correct” thing is to deploy the reserve (which I knew), but he doesn’t know anyone that actually has.

I did a search on the topic and found a discussion from 2004 and I was surprised to see that most people suggested deploying the main as a floating ripcord handle won’t generate enough force to dislodge a reserve pin (if it has the correct amount of tension applied). I thought I’d start a fresh discussion to see what others would or have done.

I’ll post the footage once I get it from my camera man.

[yoink 321]

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During the canopy ride down I was remembering Adrian Nicholls’ CYPRES fire incident so I kept my inputs light and did a basic straight in approach, not my usual 180 approach.

Not sure how Adrians multiple-revolution, no floating ripcord cypres fire applies, but not doing a swoop landing when things are already going wrong certainly seems the right approach.

[JohnRich 4]

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After thinking about the situation, I felt next time I would deploy my reserve as I found the canopy ride to be quite nerve racking. I spoke to an instructor afterwards and he said the “correct” thing is to deploy the reserve (which I knew), but he doesn’t know anyone that actually has.

I disagree with your instructor. If the reserve hasn't deployed yet in freefall, then there is no reason not to use your main canopy. Apparently the instructor thinks that the deployment of the main will dislodge the reserve pin, but the odds of that are slim, even if the pin has already slipped right to the end. And even if it does, the main canopy is already at line stretch at that point, and not likely to cause a two-out entanglement.

You did the right thing, as is.

[faulknerwn 38]

I've had floating ripcords before and always pulled my main. Never had it come out, and never even had the handle budge the reserve pins. I think it would take a lot of tension to accidently pull the reserve pin from just a floating ripcord.

[billvon 3,063]

>I've had floating ripcords before and always pulled my main. Never had
>it come out, and never even had the handle budge the reserve pins.

Agreed. I've only seen one such floating handle result in a pulled reserve - and that was when the jumper put one hand on the handle to "keep it from getting yanked out on opening." That made him fall faster before he pulled, he opened his main, had a hard opening due to the higher speed, his hand got yanked down - and his reserve deployed.

I'd suggest that if you can easily get it back in its pocket (practice this on the ground) do it; make one attempt only. Deploy normally whether or not you get it back in.

[Travman 6]

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Not sure how Adrians multiple-revolution, no floating ripcord cypres fire applies, but not doing a swoop landing when things are already going wrong certainly seems the right approach.

I knew that once I past my hard deck I was committed and there was a risk that I could have a deployment as I came in for landing which wouldn't be pretty. Adrian was an idol of mine, his IMAX doco was what prompted me to live out a childhood dream of skydiving - so the incident sticks in my mind.

[Skydivesg 7]

Just curious..... do you have a regular metal D handle or soft handle?

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[Travman 6]

Metal D handle on a Mirage G4.

[Skydivesg 7]

That's what I suspected.

I have a soft handle with the spectra cord from Vector.

I love it. If it were to dislodge,it is also much easier to put back into the the Velcro just like the cutaway.

Also, if the handle were to become dislodged, it doesn't really go anywhere (float) because there is no extra length of cord. So it stays right by the end of the housing.

Nice design.

Be the canopy pilot you want that other guy to be.

[davelepka 4]

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I felt next time I would deploy my reserve

Don't do that. Let's think about the different possibilities -

If you open your main, it might open clean.

It might also malfunction, at which point you have a reserve to fall back on.

It might also dislodge the reserve pin, and give you a two out. There is a ton of info on how to handle the variations of two-outs, look it up.

Now if you go to reserve, things get funky-

The reserve might open clean.

The reserve might mal, and now you're stuck with that piece of shit. You could try to open the main, but without a freebag and right next to a malfunctioned reserve, good luck.

The reserve might open, and dislodge the main pin. With the PC still in the pouch, this is a horseshoe type thing, but with an open reserve. I'm not even sure what that means, but it doesn't sound like fun.

Your reserve should be your last choice. There should be some sort of obstacle between you and plan A (the main) before you go to plan B, or by another name, your last chance.

Especially now that you've personally seen a floater 'do no harm', go forward with that in mind.

[MrPeapit 0]

I experienced a floating reserve ripcord after a cutaway. It took the normal amount of force to deploy.

1st jump August 6, 1977.
Last jump July 8, 2006.

[skydiverek 63]

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I have a soft handle with the spectra cord from Vector.

I love it. If it were to dislodge,it is also much easier to put back into the the Velcro just like the cutaway.

Also, if the handle were to become dislodged, it doesn't really go anywhere (float) because there is no extra length of cord. So it stays right by the end of the housing.

Nice design.

Here is a video of Bill Booth talking about this design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1J_zE3eFdw&fmt=18

[amstalder 0]

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Here is a video of Bill Booth talking about this design:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1J_zE3eFdw&fmt=18

Thank you for posting that link

[dfairleigh11 0]

Just my .02, but I'm not a huge fan of the Mirage G4 and D-Ring reserve handles - it doesn't seem to secure that well, like it was designed for pillows and the D ring added as an afterthought. First time I saw a floating reserve handle was that combo, while that jumper was in the door - definitely a pucker moment. That jumper certainly triple checks her D handle in the plane now. I myself have two pillows on my G4, which have worked fine for me on both my reserve rides. It seems to me that the Infinity SOS rigs I jumped as a student were much more secure - maybe something Mirage needs to look at?

"We'll start the ass kissing with you"

[Travman 6]

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[
If you open your main, it might open clean.

It might also malfunction, at which point you have a reserve to fall back on.

It might also dislodge the reserve pin, and give you a two out. There is a ton of info on how to handle the variations of two-outs, look it up.

Now if you go to reserve, things get funky-

The reserve might open clean.

The reserve might mal, and now you're stuck with that piece of shit. You could try to open the main, but without a freebag and right next to a malfunctioned reserve, good luck.

Yeah I did think about this which is one of the reasons I went for the main.
Also I do find the Mirage to handle keeper to be average and I usually check it often and my opposite usually checks it before exit, but it was a rushed exit.

Has anyone seen a reserve deployment during normal canopy flight? All the two-outs I have seen or heard about involve both canopies being deployed around the same time.

[JohnRich 4]

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Has anyone seen a reserve deployment during normal canopy flight? All the two-outs I have seen or heard about involve both canopies being deployed around the same time.

It happens, but not very often. If you aren't a high-speed swooper, there usually isn't even enough airspeed to extract the reserve chute from its deployment bag. AAD misfires would probably be the most common cause of this. By the word "misfire", I'm not necessarily blaming the AAD for doing something wrong, but rather, the jumper for setting the ground zero incorrectly.

[Deyan 36]

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Has anyone seen a reserve deployment during normal canopy flight? All the two-outs I have seen or heard about involve both canopies being deployed around the same time.

It happens, but not very often. If you aren't a high-speed swooper, there usually isn't even enough airspeed to extract the reserve chute from its deployment bag.

Check this out

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lehGkRCFXY&feature=related

As you can see,the airspeed is really low and the reserve is out of the free bag.

blue skies

"My belief is that once the doctor whacks you on the butt, all guarantees are off" Jerry Baumchen

[diablopilot 2]

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Has anyone seen a reserve deployment during normal canopy flight? All the two-outs I have seen or heard about involve both canopies being deployed around the same time.

Yep. On a Tandem no less. Was one of my more "interesting" jumps.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[chuckakers 426]

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I spoke to an instructor afterwards and he said the “correct” thing is to deploy the reserve (which I knew), but he doesn’t know anyone that actually has.

Put that instructor on your list of people not to ask for advise.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Travman 6]

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Put that instructor on your list of people not to ask for advise.

The instructor I spoke to is my most respected mentor and when he said the "correct" thing to do was to deploy the reserve he was referring to the text book answer, but that no one really follows that.
We had always been taught at my DZ that you should deploy the reserve if the handle is floating. I can vaugley recall an incident in a recent Australian Skydiver mag that said the same thing, might see if I can find it.
I deployed my main because it would give me more options to deal with the situation.
This discussion has been very interesting so far.

[Travman 6]

Here is an article from the APF (Australian Parachute Federation) website

http://docs.apf.asn.au/index.php/The_Red_Zone#Floating_Handles

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Floating handles can also cause premature reserve deployment or cutaway. If aware of a floating reserve handle in freefall the best option may to track away from other jumpers and deploy the reserve

Also a discussion on this topic in the Australian skydiver forum has most people saying that you should deploy the reserve. Interesting to see the different perspectives on the issue.

[chuckakers 426]

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Put that instructor on your list of people not to ask for advise.

The instructor I spoke to is my most respected mentor and when he said the "correct" thing to do was to deploy the reserve he was referring to the text book answer, but that no one really follows that.
We had always been taught at my DZ that you should deploy the reserve if the handle is floating. I can vaugley recall an incident in a recent Australian Skydiver mag that said the same thing, might see if I can find it.
I deployed my main because it would give me more options to deal with the situation.
This discussion has been very interesting so far.

I don't have a very good grasp of how you guys do things. Why would you have a "textbook" answer in your guidelines if it's common knowledge that common sense tells us to do something different? I suggest you question those guidelines on an official basis.

As you have seen from the replies on this thread, there would typically be no need to deploy the reserve just because the handle is floating. In fact, a floating reserve ripcord isn't even all that much of an emergency unless you have a main mal, in which case the flopping handle becomes a bit more of an issue.

I personally have never heard of a reserve accidentally deploying from a floating ripcord, and that's the only justification I can imagine for dictating a reserve pull in that situation.

What's next? Is Kevin Gibson going to write in Parachutist that a person with an AAD and a malfunctioning main should pull the reserve into the mess without cutting away at or below 1800 feet because taking time to cut away could result in an AAD activation?

Oh wait, he already did that.

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[davelepka 4]

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Floating handles can also cause premature reserve deployment or cutaway. If aware of a floating reserve handle in freefall the best option may to track away from other jumpers and deploy the reserve

First off, note that is says 'the best option may be to open the reserve'. That hardly sounds like a hard and fast rule, more of an option.

Overall, the gear is designed to be operated in a specific order. You open the hastily packed main first because that canopy can be cutaway. That's why you don't need a rigger to pack your main, the three ring makes the main easily disposable.

You open the rigger packed reserve last. This canopy cannot be cutaway, but it is possible that it will malfunction too. For this reason, it should be last on your 'to-do' list.

A floating reserve ripcord does not make the order of operation change any. It's not a step in the process, just a pain in the ass.

Let's say your cutaway pillow was accidentally removed by your 4-way team mate. In that case, the order of operation has been interrupted, and you will need to skip directly to the reserve.

Otherwise, stick with what the gear was designed to do. There's a good chance the rig will do what it was designed to do, and just work. Even if it doesn't work the first time, continue with your EPs (like the rig was designed) and see if that part of the rig will work.

[riggerrob 643]

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Has anyone seen a reserve deployment during normal canopy flight? All the two-outs I have seen or heard about involve both canopies being deployed around the same time.

It happens, but not very often. If you aren't a high-speed swooper, there usually isn't even enough airspeed to extract the reserve chute from its deployment bag. AAD misfires would probably be the most common cause of this. By the word "misfire", I'm not necessarily blaming the AAD for doing something wrong, but rather, the jumper for setting the ground zero incorrectly.

...............................................................................................
Agreed!
\The leading cause of "AAD mis-fires" is skydiver "brain farts."
Hah!
Hah!
Hah!

Back in the day of mechanical AADs (e.g. FXC 12000) skydivers complained about them "miss-firing" below 3,000 feet (when they were usually adjusted to fire at 1,000 or 1,500 feet).
Funny, but most of those "miss-fires" looked like less than 2,000 feet to me!
What is any skydiver doing in freefall below 2,000 fet?

Since the introduction of electronic AADs (Argus, Astra, Cypres and Vigil) we have heard fewer complaints about "miss-fires" and ... funny "miss-fire" now occur somewhere between 1,000 and 750 feet!
(Hint: Electronic ADs are usually set to fire between 750 and 1040 feet.)
What is any skydiver doing in freefall below 1,000 feet?

The simple answer to preventing AAD "miss-fires" is inflating a main canopy above 2,000 feet.

[Travman 6]

There is a thread on the Aussie Skydiver forum for every single chapter in that article to discuss each area.
Also another difference we have in Australia is that there is no seal on our reserve pin from the rigger. Perhaps this means that the pin *could* shake loose but I doubt it, just throwing that out there.
Neither option is going to be correct 100% of the time. The reserve handle could have been pulled out by someone taking grips and the pin may be almost all the way out.
I know there should be a certain amount of force to extract the reserve pin, but what if the rigger put in a new closing loop and made it too long?
However my split second thinking at the time did reflect a lot of these comments, and in my scenario it was the correct decision. The only thing that made me question that was the effect of a reserve deploying during canopy flight.