livendive 8 #101 December 2, 2007 Quote Of course the really smart people know what it take for a DZ to be a USPA GMDZ. The same thing it takes for a anyone to belong to join USPA (except a DZ) fill out the form and pay your annual dues. USPA will revoke an individual membership for failure to comply with the BSRs. Apparently they won't do the same for failure to comply with the group membership pledge. You folks who think the group membership program does anything whatsoever other than cost jumpers money need look no further than Skyride. There are no consequences for violating the group membership pledge. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #102 December 3, 2007 Speaking of ethical ... in looking at the Group Member Manual I found this gem. Quote A. This Group Member Pledge represents a commitment on the part of the Group Member to provide service and conduct business within accepted ethical guidelines. So I guess USPA has just redefined "accepted" ethical guidelines... But wait, there's more (emphasis added by me): Quote 1-5 SKYDIVING SERVICE CODE OF CONDUCT A. The following is the Skydiving Service Code of Conduct: 1. As an organization offering and facilitating skydiving services, and as a Group Member of the United States Parachute Association, 2. We declare a dedication to safety as our highest goal, empowering ourselves and others to make decisions so that the highest possible standards of safety are maintained. 3. We display respect for all staff and customers and do not tolerate harassment or discrimination based on race, creed, gender, age, and disability, subject to safe practices. 4. We foster honesty, integrity, and fairness in our business relationships with customers, contractors, suppliers, and employees and strive to minimize misunderstandings and conflict. 5. We refrain from disparaging other individuals and organizations, whether written, spoken, or implied, but work to uphold and foster a positive image of skydiving. 6. We strive, individually and organizationally, to enhance our professional skills and knowledge, and to assist others in doing so. 7. We understand that, as a service business, we must operate on sound ethical, management, and financial principles. 8. We will develop and display a refund policy and make it available to customers prior to financial transactions. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johndh1 0 #103 December 3, 2007 So, practically, what does USPA membership come down to for each person? Is it the magazine? But for the nice glossy shots (correct me if I am wrong, submitted by photographers, rarely any effort by the publishers themselves), to be honest, Skydiving magazine is much better reading for me, personally. As I stated before, the airport access defense is really not an issue for most - the DZOs I know are very appreciated by their respective airports. If I recall correctly, the only airport access case I am personally familiar with is one in Mississippi where the USPA deemed the defense unworthy (in a sense declaring him guilty by their position as a quasi-governing body), and the DZO took the burden of the litigation upon himself and won, without the help of the organization. When the case was mentioned in Parachutist, they left off the name of the victorious plaintiff, and the tone appeared to me to still be somewhat condescending toward him. Right or wrong, he proved his case to the satisfaction of the court. I wish the few decision-makers in this governing body had the same confidence and cock-eyed optimism. Still, I smell a rat. Roll Tide Roll Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #104 December 3, 2007 I can see the value of a national skydiving organization to me as an individual. On a regular, practical level ... the ability to show membership as proof of third party liability insurance makes it very simple for me to enter into a business relationship with a DZO who would like those who jump at his/her DZ to have such insurance. On a more global level ... a national organization that sets standards does us all good in helping to manage in a litigious society by creating a community standard for safe(r) operations - it gives the defense lawyers something to point to in defending DZs and individuals from legal action. The magazine's nice and has shown definite signs of improvement, but it's never going to be a truly independent news source, but that's the nature of the beast. Still fun to look for cool photos and familiar faces, and I enjoy the historical perspectives they've been throwing in recently. Re: airport access - what I find interesting is that there is a separate fund set up for that to which we are asked to donate extra; leading me to wonder whether any portion of my regular dues is devoted to that particular issue...."There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johndh1 0 #105 December 3, 2007 QuoteI can see the value of a national skydiving organization to me as an individual.... Me too, don't get me wrong, but right now I feel personally slighted and sold out by just a few people who have forgotten that they work for US. I am not against a national organization, I just feel this one has grown stale, and its direction and integrity have been compromised. I don't think this is as simple as "cutting of losses," or just "making the thing go away," or "cheaper to settle than fight." This is not a product-liability claim. This is a whole atmosphere of a nationwide organization being turned upside down - as evidenced here, on this "small and insignificant website" where "just a few people are continually making the same gripe." No, the conspiracy theorist in me thinks that this whole settlement was engineered by some who don't have the best interests of their constituents in mind.Roll Tide Roll Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #106 December 3, 2007 there was also another dz in mississippi that uspa wouldn't help. that dz had to move to another airport. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
groundloop 0 #107 December 3, 2007 I've seen this sort of thing over the years, some times it's all about the almighty buck, hope not!!!!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 210 #108 December 3, 2007 QuoteI've seen this sort of thing over the years, some times it's all about the almighty buck, hope not!!!!!!!!! If you're referring to the bucks USPA would have had to shell out to defned themselves I believe you're right. I've spent most of today reading all about the SKyride issue here. It still seems to me that someone could do the same thing, only do it alot better and without all the misleading claims. I think the DZO's could forma consortium to handle the details. The travel agents do it all over the place. C'mon people...beat 'em at their own game.Please don't dent the planet. Destinations by Roxanne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #109 December 3, 2007 QuoteI can see the value of a national skydiving organization to me as an individual. On a regular, practical level ... the ability to show membership as proof of third party liability insurance makes it very simple for me to enter into a business relationship with a DZO who would like those who jump at his/her DZ to have such insurance. Your homeowner's insurance almost assuredly includes liability coverage that's better than the insurance provided through USPA. Renter's insurance usually includes the similar coverage. Yes, it's nice, but it's not like most jumpers don't already have similar coverage that doesn't exclude damage to a USPA member's property or have as high of a deductible. QuoteOn a more global level ... a national organization that sets standards does us all good in helping to manage in a litigious society by creating a community standard for safe(r) operations - it gives the defense lawyers something to point to in defending DZs and individuals from legal action. This I wholeheartedly agree with. It's my primary reason for promoting individual USPA membership and well worth the price. QuoteThe magazine's nice and has shown definite signs of improvement, but it's never going to be a truly independent news source, but that's the nature of the beast. Still fun to look for cool photos and familiar faces, and I enjoy the historical perspectives they've been throwing in recently. I very rarely open the magazine, but I still agree with you. It's nice to see friends named or pictured in a magazine. QuoteRe: airport access - what I find interesting is that there is a separate fund set up for that to which we are asked to donate extra; leading me to wonder whether any portion of my regular dues is devoted to that particular issue.... I can only think of a couple instances in which USPA has come to the rescue, most notably the Nevada fiasco several years ago. We won . . . sort of, and it was in part due to USPA's help. Much more frequently (it seems to me), dropzones are run off airports without much help at all from USPA. Still, I think such a defense fund is important, and it's a secondary reason I support USPA membership. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #110 December 3, 2007 QuoteQuoteI can see the value of a national skydiving organization to me as an individual. On a regular, practical level ... the ability to show membership as proof of third party liability insurance makes it very simple for me to enter into a business relationship with a DZO who would like those who jump at his/her DZ to have such insurance. Your homeowner's insurance almost assuredly includes liability coverage that's better than the insurance provided through USPA. Renter's insurance usually includes the similar coverage. Yes, it's nice, but it's not like most jumpers don't already have similar coverage that doesn't exclude damage to a USPA member's property or have as high of a deductible. Yep, that's why I said it's easier to have a USPA membership as "proof" but there are surely other (more complicated) ways to demonstrate that. Quote I very rarely open the magazine, but I still agree with you. It's nice to see friends named or pictured in a magazine. It really has shown some improvement in the last couple months. QuoteQuoteRe: airport access - what I find interesting is that there is a separate fund set up for that to which we are asked to donate extra; leading me to wonder whether any portion of my regular dues is devoted to that particular issue.... I can only think of a couple instances in which USPA has come to the rescue, most notably the Nevada fiasco several years ago. We won . . . sort of, and it was in part due to USPA's help. Much more frequently (it seems to me), dropzones are run off airports without much help at all from USPA. Still, I think such a defense fund is important, and it's a secondary reason I support USPA membership. But I still wonder how much of my regular dues goes to that fund ... every issue of Parachutist includes a list of folks who donated over and above their dues to the fund, but I wonder if there's some amount set aside already. Which brings up another (larger) question ... how can a member obtain a copy of the USPA's budget? Is it ever published anywhere?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #111 December 3, 2007 QuoteWhich brings up another (larger) question ... how can a member obtain a copy of the USPA's budget? Is it ever published anywhere? Contact HQ. They published it in Parachutist every year as they are required to being a non-profit but its just a high level budget, not a line item level.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #112 December 3, 2007 Quote But I still wonder how much of my regular dues goes to that fund ... every issue of Parachutist includes a list of folks who donated over and above their dues to the fund, but I wonder if there's some amount set aside already. Which brings up another (larger) question ... how can a member obtain a copy of the USPA's budget? Is it ever published anywhere? I don't think any of your dues go toward it, except *maybe* the salary of the government liaison/lobbyist du jour (is it still Ed Scott?). The annual financial report used to be mailed out, or maybe it was simply published in Parachutist, or available as an attachment to BOD minutes. I'm not sure which, but I do remember reading it on a few occasions. The primary focus seemed to be building bank. Staff (paid USPA staff, not volunteers like BOD members and S&TAs) salaries were included to some extent. I think the President's salary was itemized individually and everyone else's was lumped together and collectively considered one expense. Recent large expenditures include the donation to the museum and the move of HQ, and both were discussed in vague terms (amounts and vague rationales, the latter not being very convincing). If you query "Mondays with the BOD" on rec.skydiving (archives available on groups.google.com) you'll see some very contentious threads and some reasonably constructive threads. Not all BOD members participated and not all questions were worded objectively, so it wasn't as valuable a tool as it could have been, but it was better than what we normally get out of USPA. Two elections later, I could maybe take another stab at it. First couple weeks could address this Skyride issue to the extent we could get anyone to say anything (Jan's avatar makes me think it wouldn't be much). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #113 December 3, 2007 I think someone said Ed starts his new job tomorrow and there's a job posting for his old gig on the USPA site, so it looks like that position is still open. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #114 December 3, 2007 Quote there was also another dz in mississippi that uspa wouldn't help. that dz had to move to another airport. Gold Coast Skydivers? Yeah, they REALLY got screwed. The FBO and cronies at Trent Lott fucked them over, and got their friends in the courts to fuck them over again. Bunch of bastards, that lot. "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #115 December 3, 2007 Oh, and did I mention which BOD member oversees preparation of USPA's annual reports? Yep, it's none other than our Treasurer, Lee Schlichtemeier, a Skyride affiliated DZO. Blues, Dave "I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #116 December 3, 2007 He needs to go!you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TrophyHusband 0 #117 December 3, 2007 that's the one. for a decade i watched mike pour his heart and soul into that place only to be ran out with zero help from the uspa. fortunately gold coast is now on an airport that wants them and hopefully it will work out for the best. i'm disappointed that uspa didn't step up on this one. "Your scrotum is quite nice" - Skymama www.kjandmegan.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BillyVance 34 #118 December 3, 2007 Quote i'm disappointed that uspa didn't step up on this one. You got that right. What the hell was the matter with them? "Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #119 December 4, 2007 Quote Concerned about the direction USPA is going? Call your representative. Show up at meetings. Call headquarters and talk to whoever's available. Find out what they're doing, decide if you like it, and then tell them if you do or not. Started a thread over in Events so we can see how many people plan to show up at the next meeting. It's three months away - now's the time to start thinking about travel plans. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #120 December 4, 2007 Quote I like how you ignored my question about what it was the customer didn't get. I did not ignore it, I answered it. Perhaps you should become more familiar with the marketing practices of the group that you are defending. You would have gotten the reference. Quote Well certainly I hope not. I would never ride as a tandem that uses a pilot chute. (THEN ) And I'll be damned if I pay a fee for something that I don't get. So - I guess in answer toyour question, Yes, they did NOT get what they paid for. Explain please. I don't understand what they didn't get. In other words there was a pilot chute fee. I believe they also sell Wind insurance.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #121 December 4, 2007 Quote Oh, and did I mention which BOD member oversees preparation of USPA's annual reports? Yep, it's none other than our Treasurer, Lee Schlichtemeier, a Skyride affiliated DZO. Blues, Dave Wow! So he, as a Skyride affilliated DZO, prepares the paperwork for all the mandated disclosures of the budget, AND he was on the commitee that decided how much the USPA would settle for? How many different ways can you spell "Conflict of Interest?"I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #122 December 4, 2007 Quote Quote Oh, and did I mention which BOD member oversees preparation of USPA's annual reports? Yep, it's none other than our Treasurer, Lee Schlichtemeier, a Skyride affiliated DZO. Blues, Dave Wow! So he, as a Skyride affilliated DZO, prepares the paperwork for all the mandated disclosures of the budget, AND he was on the commitee that decided how much the USPA would settle for? How many different ways can you spell "Conflict of Interest?" I wonder if the USPA can pay 'em off with gift certificates? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 220 #123 December 4, 2007 Quote Quote Quote Oh, and did I mention which BOD member oversees preparation of USPA's annual reports? Yep, it's none other than our Treasurer, Lee Schlichtemeier, a Skyride affiliated DZO. Blues, Dave Wow! So he, as a Skyride affilliated DZO, prepares the paperwork for all the mandated disclosures of the budget, AND he was on the commitee that decided how much the USPA would settle for? How many different ways can you spell "Conflict of Interest?" I wonder if the USPA can pay 'em off with gift certificates? Or they could have B&C open their own Wind Insurance Company, then they could subsidise them by being a major policy holder.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydance1954 0 #124 December 4, 2007 Why not run for a position yourself? A non-corrupt platform with a return to root values should resonate with the membership. Then you can see to the injustices to which you constantly rail against personally. Along with starting to tear down the old boy network, one brick at a time. Turn your passion into action.Mike Ashley D-18460 Canadian A-666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stratostar 5 #125 December 4, 2007 Ya never know just might do that, seeing on how I can count on your vote now that your done supporting the outlaw after all those years of following like a lemming.you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
