mattyblast 0 #1 May 12, 2006 I have forum-searched and googled like crazy to find an answer to this question and have had no luck, so if I missed a thread or website that deals with this subject, please forgive me & pass the info along. What is the largest brand/size of reserve canopy that one can safely fit into a Javelin Odyssey J4 container? I'm sure certain brands are made of fabric that packs smaller than others. I'd like to get as much fabric over my head as possible in a reserve ride situation, but without decreasing the likelihood that it will open safely. Your help is appreciated."DOOR!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #2 May 12, 2006 Best way to find out is to contact the manufacturer of the rig directly and ask them. I'm betting they know best."Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,457 #3 May 12, 2006 Sunpath sizing charts Go to new/used stock, and on there is a link to the container sizing charts. A J4 is listed as taking a Raven II 176. Dunno about bigger. Of course, you're loading that pretty way too stoutly. Going up 6 sq. ft. won't buy you much. Talk to your rigger, but a new container might be a better idea. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #4 May 12, 2006 A Raven II is 218 sqft. It says it'll hold from 176 up to a raven II. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #5 May 12, 2006 Here is the loading chart for the reserve you are jumping. You are about 240 lb. out the door and max loading is 200 pounds. You have more to worry about then getting a bigger reserve in you J4. I jumped a tempo 210 on 3 or 4 reserve rides and I am about 20 lb. less and 2700 jumps more. Hope you don’t have to use it in the next say 400 or 500 jumps. But then again you can probably handle it. Tempo Reserve Max Loading Chart Size Area (sq ft) Max lbs Max kgs Tempo 120 118 132 60 Tempo 150 148 165 75 Tempo 170 178 200 91 Tempo 210 203 223 101 Tempo 250 251 250 113My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #6 May 12, 2006 Quote But then again you can probably handle it. But Sparky, it was a good deal. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #7 May 12, 2006 QuoteQuote But then again you can probably handle it. But Sparky, it was a good deal. And the canopies are just a little overloaded. Container: Javelin Main Canopy: Sabre 190 ft² (1.26 lbs/ft²) Reserve Canopy: Tempo 170 ft² (1.41 lbs/ft²) AAD: Cypres My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattyblast 0 #8 May 12, 2006 I'm swapping out the container and the reserve. Thanks for the help, folks. (I guess a new Wings would have been the better route after all.)"DOOR!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #9 May 12, 2006 QuoteI'm swapping out the container and the reserve. Thanks for the help, folks. (I guess a new Wings would have been the better route after all.) I'm assuming you've already bought it... but the good news is since you haven't added any wear and tear to it you should be able to turn that around for what you paid for it. Smart choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matt1215 0 #10 May 13, 2006 I have a Spectre-210 and Tempo-210 in my J4. It's a brick, but it fits!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites peckerhead 0 #11 May 13, 2006 Define "safely" I used to know a guy that had 2 pilot chutes in his reserve.... When I asked him why 2? He said because I coudn't fit 3 in there! No shit! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites point_code 0 #12 May 14, 2006 Mike Fury says that the container volumes of the dolphin D-4 and the Javelin J-4 are the same. I've got a tempo 250 packed in my dolphin d-4. my rigger said it was tight, but fits safely Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #13 May 14, 2006 QuoteMike Fury says that the container volumes of the dolphin D-4 and the Javelin J-4 are the same. I've got a tempo 250 packed in my dolphin d-4. my rigger said it was tight, but fits safely Over packing a container is similar to over loading a reserve. Sure you can do it but is it smart? Mike said the D-4 and the J-4 are the same size, but did he say it is OK to over pack either one? The people that manufacture the gear set limits for a reason. When you exceed these limits and the gear does not function right will you be willing to accept the blame?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JerryBaumchen 1,372 #14 May 14, 2006 Hi peckerhead, Re: 'I used to know a guy that had 2 pilot chutes in his reserve.... ' Back in the 60's Rich Johnston (D-142) put two MA-`1's into his XBO reserve container. I didn't believe it could be done until on day when needing a repack he pulled the ripcord while I watched. It could be done. Ask Ralph about Rich, he'll remember him. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Big_Red 0 #15 May 15, 2006 I have a Javelin J4 and it currently holds: - Sabre 190 - Swift Plus 225 (Reserve)Derec Davies Big_Red Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #16 May 15, 2006 QuoteMike Fury says that the container volumes of the dolphin D-4 and the Javelin J-4 are the same. I've got a tempo 250 packed in my dolphin d-4. my rigger said it was tight, but fits safely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow! Last year I packed a whole hockey sock of Tempo 250s into Javelin J7s and one into a Javelin J6. I never wanted to be enough of a hero to pack that reserve into anything smaller. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mattyblast 0 #17 May 15, 2006 This is very interesting. I called Sunpath and spoke to one of their rig repair specialists and asked them which reserves the J4 was designed for. The list of canopies is the same for the J4, J4K, and Odyssey J4: PD176 Raven II Tempo 210 (now the Smart 210) Raven dash-M (now the Rmax 218) I asked him why a 218 of one brand would work, but only a 176 of another, and he said that the sizes are actually very similar. Now I knew that Icarus had a different methodology at one time of measuring their canopies, but I thought that that was the only such inconsistency that ever existed. Nor did I know that the variance was this huge! So I asked him which figure is the most accurate to use in order to calculate wingloading. He said I would need to contact the manufacturers of the canopies to do that. So stay tuned. I'm still leaning 99% toward getting a new container & reserve, but this has me very curious."DOOR!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #18 May 15, 2006 My impression was that a Tempo packed smaller since it did'nt have near the reenforcing (read bulk) that other canopies like the PD and Raven-M did. There is no way I would want to pack a Smart into a rig that had a full Tempo in it. The Smart packs up WAY larger then the same size Tempo. The RMax is to have a larger pack volume then a DashM also. I'm not questioning Sunpath, but I am wondering how they want a Smart packed into something a Tempo would be full in.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #19 May 15, 2006 Quote Tempo 210 (now the Smart 210) Raven dash-M (now the Rmax 218) Those two sets of canopies are completely unrelated. The Smart 220 and R-MAX pack close to the same size as PD218R reserves. If it's even possible to get one of those in a J4, it's going to be a real pain in the ass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites doorgirl 0 #20 May 15, 2006 I have a Dolphin D4 and recently switched out reserves. When I bought it there was a Firefly 176 in - it was a little squishy this way, but not too bad and riggers were happy with it. I switched that out for a PDR 193, which is just about as tight as I would want. I watched the entire inspection/packing process so that I could learn more about my gear, so I actually got to see the flaps and how they closed and stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #21 May 15, 2006 QuoteI have a Javelin J4 and it currently holds: - Sabre 190 - Swift Plus 225 (Reserve) The J-4 is designed for a canopy between 417 and 447 sq. in. The Swift Plus 225 is around 525 sq. in. That quite a bit bigger then the manufacture designed it for. It can be done but I know that I would not pack it. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 9 #22 May 15, 2006 QuoteI have a Dolphin D4 and recently switched out reserves. When I bought it there was a Firefly 176 in - it was a little squishy this way, but not too bad and riggers were happy with it. I switched that out for a PDR 193, which is just about as tight as I would want. I watched the entire inspection/packing process so that I could learn more about my gear, so I actually got to see the flaps and how they closed and stuff. Good for you!!!! I wish more young'ins would take the time to watch a rigger do their thing when inspecting and repacking a reserve. Not everyone needs to ba a rigger, but all jumpers should have a working knowlege of how thier reserve is packed. ... but we usually charge extra if you want to watch... more if you want to "help"... ... just kidding! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites matt1215 0 #23 May 16, 2006 Quote >>>Tempo 210 (now the Smart 210)<<< Tempo 210 = Smart 210??? Did Aerodyne buy-out PISA? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites IanHarrop 42 #24 May 16, 2006 from an old information I found... "Aerodyne Systems (formerly Parachute Industries of Southern Africa (PISA)) is one of the largest and most established military parachute manufactures in the world." http://www.sadid.co.za/SADID_8/edition8/aerodyne/aerodyne.html"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites PhreeZone 20 #25 May 16, 2006 The Smart is a completly different design then the Tempo. They may be supported by the same company, but in no way are they equal.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
mjosparky 4 #5 May 12, 2006 Here is the loading chart for the reserve you are jumping. You are about 240 lb. out the door and max loading is 200 pounds. You have more to worry about then getting a bigger reserve in you J4. I jumped a tempo 210 on 3 or 4 reserve rides and I am about 20 lb. less and 2700 jumps more. Hope you don’t have to use it in the next say 400 or 500 jumps. But then again you can probably handle it. Tempo Reserve Max Loading Chart Size Area (sq ft) Max lbs Max kgs Tempo 120 118 132 60 Tempo 150 148 165 75 Tempo 170 178 200 91 Tempo 210 203 223 101 Tempo 250 251 250 113My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #6 May 12, 2006 Quote But then again you can probably handle it. But Sparky, it was a good deal. "There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #7 May 12, 2006 QuoteQuote But then again you can probably handle it. But Sparky, it was a good deal. And the canopies are just a little overloaded. Container: Javelin Main Canopy: Sabre 190 ft² (1.26 lbs/ft²) Reserve Canopy: Tempo 170 ft² (1.41 lbs/ft²) AAD: Cypres My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattyblast 0 #8 May 12, 2006 I'm swapping out the container and the reserve. Thanks for the help, folks. (I guess a new Wings would have been the better route after all.)"DOOR!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #9 May 12, 2006 QuoteI'm swapping out the container and the reserve. Thanks for the help, folks. (I guess a new Wings would have been the better route after all.) I'm assuming you've already bought it... but the good news is since you haven't added any wear and tear to it you should be able to turn that around for what you paid for it. Smart choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt1215 0 #10 May 13, 2006 I have a Spectre-210 and Tempo-210 in my J4. It's a brick, but it fits!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peckerhead 0 #11 May 13, 2006 Define "safely" I used to know a guy that had 2 pilot chutes in his reserve.... When I asked him why 2? He said because I coudn't fit 3 in there! No shit! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
point_code 0 #12 May 14, 2006 Mike Fury says that the container volumes of the dolphin D-4 and the Javelin J-4 are the same. I've got a tempo 250 packed in my dolphin d-4. my rigger said it was tight, but fits safely Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #13 May 14, 2006 QuoteMike Fury says that the container volumes of the dolphin D-4 and the Javelin J-4 are the same. I've got a tempo 250 packed in my dolphin d-4. my rigger said it was tight, but fits safely Over packing a container is similar to over loading a reserve. Sure you can do it but is it smart? Mike said the D-4 and the J-4 are the same size, but did he say it is OK to over pack either one? The people that manufacture the gear set limits for a reason. When you exceed these limits and the gear does not function right will you be willing to accept the blame?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,372 #14 May 14, 2006 Hi peckerhead, Re: 'I used to know a guy that had 2 pilot chutes in his reserve.... ' Back in the 60's Rich Johnston (D-142) put two MA-`1's into his XBO reserve container. I didn't believe it could be done until on day when needing a repack he pulled the ripcord while I watched. It could be done. Ask Ralph about Rich, he'll remember him. Jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Big_Red 0 #15 May 15, 2006 I have a Javelin J4 and it currently holds: - Sabre 190 - Swift Plus 225 (Reserve)Derec Davies Big_Red Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #16 May 15, 2006 QuoteMike Fury says that the container volumes of the dolphin D-4 and the Javelin J-4 are the same. I've got a tempo 250 packed in my dolphin d-4. my rigger said it was tight, but fits safely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow! Last year I packed a whole hockey sock of Tempo 250s into Javelin J7s and one into a Javelin J6. I never wanted to be enough of a hero to pack that reserve into anything smaller. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mattyblast 0 #17 May 15, 2006 This is very interesting. I called Sunpath and spoke to one of their rig repair specialists and asked them which reserves the J4 was designed for. The list of canopies is the same for the J4, J4K, and Odyssey J4: PD176 Raven II Tempo 210 (now the Smart 210) Raven dash-M (now the Rmax 218) I asked him why a 218 of one brand would work, but only a 176 of another, and he said that the sizes are actually very similar. Now I knew that Icarus had a different methodology at one time of measuring their canopies, but I thought that that was the only such inconsistency that ever existed. Nor did I know that the variance was this huge! So I asked him which figure is the most accurate to use in order to calculate wingloading. He said I would need to contact the manufacturers of the canopies to do that. So stay tuned. I'm still leaning 99% toward getting a new container & reserve, but this has me very curious."DOOR!!!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #18 May 15, 2006 My impression was that a Tempo packed smaller since it did'nt have near the reenforcing (read bulk) that other canopies like the PD and Raven-M did. There is no way I would want to pack a Smart into a rig that had a full Tempo in it. The Smart packs up WAY larger then the same size Tempo. The RMax is to have a larger pack volume then a DashM also. I'm not questioning Sunpath, but I am wondering how they want a Smart packed into something a Tempo would be full in.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #19 May 15, 2006 Quote Tempo 210 (now the Smart 210) Raven dash-M (now the Rmax 218) Those two sets of canopies are completely unrelated. The Smart 220 and R-MAX pack close to the same size as PD218R reserves. If it's even possible to get one of those in a J4, it's going to be a real pain in the ass. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doorgirl 0 #20 May 15, 2006 I have a Dolphin D4 and recently switched out reserves. When I bought it there was a Firefly 176 in - it was a little squishy this way, but not too bad and riggers were happy with it. I switched that out for a PDR 193, which is just about as tight as I would want. I watched the entire inspection/packing process so that I could learn more about my gear, so I actually got to see the flaps and how they closed and stuff. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #21 May 15, 2006 QuoteI have a Javelin J4 and it currently holds: - Sabre 190 - Swift Plus 225 (Reserve) The J-4 is designed for a canopy between 417 and 447 sq. in. The Swift Plus 225 is around 525 sq. in. That quite a bit bigger then the manufacture designed it for. It can be done but I know that I would not pack it. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #22 May 15, 2006 QuoteI have a Dolphin D4 and recently switched out reserves. When I bought it there was a Firefly 176 in - it was a little squishy this way, but not too bad and riggers were happy with it. I switched that out for a PDR 193, which is just about as tight as I would want. I watched the entire inspection/packing process so that I could learn more about my gear, so I actually got to see the flaps and how they closed and stuff. Good for you!!!! I wish more young'ins would take the time to watch a rigger do their thing when inspecting and repacking a reserve. Not everyone needs to ba a rigger, but all jumpers should have a working knowlege of how thier reserve is packed. ... but we usually charge extra if you want to watch... more if you want to "help"... ... just kidding! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matt1215 0 #23 May 16, 2006 Quote >>>Tempo 210 (now the Smart 210)<<< Tempo 210 = Smart 210??? Did Aerodyne buy-out PISA? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IanHarrop 42 #24 May 16, 2006 from an old information I found... "Aerodyne Systems (formerly Parachute Industries of Southern Africa (PISA)) is one of the largest and most established military parachute manufactures in the world." http://www.sadid.co.za/SADID_8/edition8/aerodyne/aerodyne.html"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhreeZone 20 #25 May 16, 2006 The Smart is a completly different design then the Tempo. They may be supported by the same company, but in no way are they equal.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
