Old Micro Raven Airworthy?

[FireMedicJumper 0]

I have an old Micro Raven 150, DOM sometime in 1988.

Was wondering if the riggers here would consider it airworthy and if so at what wingloading?

I have not had it pull tested and was just wondering if it is even worth the trouble.

This is mainly an academic discussion for me since I don't plan to use the Micro Raven and have a new PD 143 in the rig this reserve was once in.

[peckerhead 0]

I would have to look at it to give you an answer.

[FireMedicJumper 0]

I guess part of my question is does the canopy's age alone make it unairworthy?

[Tink1717 2]

No, what makes it airworthy or not is porosity, strength, and presence or absence of damage. Generally, if it has been used, and how often factor into whether or not it will be passed by the manufacturer. Send it to Precision and have them inspect and rate it. It shouldn't be much in terms of money.

Skydivers don't knock on Death's door. They ring the bell and runaway... It really pisses him off.
-The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS#8808 Swooo 1717

[FireMedicJumper 0]

OK. I just wanted to make sure its age didn't automatically trump these other factors. Don't want to waste my time with it if it did.

I actually plan on giving it to a friend who would only be lightly loading it in the event of a reserve ride, but I want to make sure I am giving them something safe before I do it.

[peckerhead 0]

If it has been properly stored in a climate controlled environment for it's lifetime it is just as good as new.

It may be more air worthy than a new PD that has been jumped and landed in a swamp.

Reserves much older than that are still "airworthy"

That doesn't mean you want to jump them.

Clear as mud?

[riggerrob 643]

I actually plan on giving it to a friend who would only be lightly loading it in the event of a reserve ride,

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Hopefully your buddy weighs less than 150 pounds, because canopies - of that vintage - were never designed to be loaded much more than one pound per square foot.

[riggerrob 643]

I have not had it pull tested and was just wondering if it is even worth the trouble.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I only pull-test Ravens when they are faded, frayed and filthy. Then I am really looking for an objective (numerical) excuse to ground them.

[councilman24 37]

There are many riggers who impose their own age limit on gear they will work on. This is often 20 years, sometimes 25, and as low as 15. This isn't so much that the gear is actually unairworthy, but because we can't fully test all the fabric, thread, lines, or webbing at some point we get nervous signing our name to it. There also are many riggers who will pack things no matter how old if they consider it airworthy on inspection.

Obviously there are exceptions. Gear that has sat on a shelf for 10 years, only packed once a year, etc.

We are now just getting to fairly modern equipment that is reaching 20 years. Super raven reserves, rigs, etc. Up till know most of the equipment was retired because it was obsolete, not unairworthy. So now what do we do?

As Rob said, sometimes were looking for a reason to ground something that we're uncomfortable with but seems okay. I also try to educate my customers that things don't last forever.

As mentioned above, a 1988 Raven that has been in continuous use is a good candidate for manufacturer inspection.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[FireMedicJumper 0]

The friend only weighs about 115-120 pounds at exit weight, so I would think that would be OK. The reason you mentioned is the reason I am not considering using the reserve myself.

As far as visually, the canopy looks perfect to my untrained eye. No stains, fading, obvious damage, or frayed threads. I looked for all this type of obvious stuff before I even considered letting my friend use it.

I think it will be going to Precision for an inspection just to be on the safe side.

[mjosparky 4]

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Hopefully your buddy weighs less than 150 pounds, because canopies - of that vintage - were never designed to be loaded much more than one pound per square foot.

I noticed from you profile that you are loading your reserve above what is recommened for an expert. As a FF/PM you should know the importance of staying within the operation limits of equipment.

See attachment

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[FireMedicJumper 0]

You are correct.

I originally had a PD 160 in my current rig, but after multiple attempts by different riggers I was unable to get an acceptable looking pack job.

The container was listed to hold a PD 160 reserve, but with my CYPRES making things even tighter, the container bulged, had ugly wrinkles, and was just generally unsightly. Not what I was looking for in a brand new rig.

I'm not sure leaving the CYPRES out would have helped enough to cure the problem, but that just was not an option.

I swapped the 160 for a 143 in order to keep the rig from being a brick, and to alleviate those problems. Unfortunately, none of those things make me any lighter or my reserve any bigger.

On the positive side, I am getting canopy coaching, and have thoroughly read and re-read Brian Germain's The Parachute and It's Pilot, and try to put what I have learned into practice.

Obviously these things are good but are no substitute for experience. I hope however that some of the things I have learned will help me when the time comes that I need it.

[mjosparky 4]

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On the positive side, I am getting canopy coaching, and have thoroughly read and re-read Brian Germain's The Parachute and It's Pilot, and try to put what I have learned into practice.

One thing to remember is your reserve is a 7 cell design made of LO-PO (F-111 type) material. It will fly, perform and flare, different then anything you have been under before.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[FireMedicJumper 0]

Good Point.

My first 100 or so jumps were on F-111 canopies, but they were all 9 cells I believe. I have jumped a couple of 7 cell mains in the recent past but they were ZP so I'm sure there's not much of a comparison.

By the way, glad to see you are still posting even if you aren't jumping. I post very little on the forums, but read quite a bit and am always willing to learn from those such as yourself.

[mjosparky 4]

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Good Point.

My first 100 or so jumps were on F-111 canopies, but they were all 9 cells I believe. I have jumped a couple of 7 cell mains in the recent past but they were ZP so I'm sure there's not much of a comparison.

By the way, glad to see you are still posting even if you aren't jumping. I post very little on the forums, but read quite a bit and am always willing to learn from those such as yourself.

I believe I have learned much more here than I have been able to pass on.

Always glad to help out a fellow FF/PM.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[beezyshaw 0]

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I think it will be going to Precision for an inspection just to be on the safe side

There are lofts and master riggers that will be able to give your canopy a better, more valid inspection than Precision. They manufacture new canopies and they are not in as much of a position nor have the personnel with the experience necessary to evaluate older gear.

[precision 0]

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I think it will be going to Precision for an inspection just to be on the safe side

There are lofts and master riggers that will be able to give your canopy a better, more valid inspection than Precision. They manufacture new canopies and they are not in as much of a position nor have the personnel with the experience necessary to evaluate older gear.

Oh my... One might question where that came from. Goodness...

There are not many places who can give you a better and more thorough old canopy evaluation than the factory. At Precision, we have delicate equipment to properly measure and quantify canopy porosity as well as fabric strength. Most manufacturers have the proper facilities to conduct used canopy evaluations, including live or dummy drop testing as necessary.

Send the canopy back to us and we will give you the service you need with all work signed off by a Master Parachute Rigger.

George Galloway

[mjosparky 4]

Opps!

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[beezyshaw 0]

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Oh my... One might question where that came from. Goodness...

There are not many places who can give you a better and more thorough old canopy evaluation than the factory. At Precision, we have delicate equipment to properly measure and quantify canopy porosity as well as fabric strength. Most manufacturers have the proper facilities to conduct used canopy evaluations, including live or dummy drop testing as necessary.

Send the canopy back to us and we will give you the service you need with all work signed off by a Master Parachute Rigger

Not sure why you've taken offense to my advise to this jumper, George, but my intention was not to say anything different than what you always said in all the years I was with Precision. You always made it clear that Precision's role was that of manufacturer, and that the job of continuance of airworthiness belonged to the riggers in the field. I didn't mean to get your feathers ruffled, I was stating what I've heard you say for twenty years.

[precision 0]

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Not sure why you've taken offense to my advise to this jumper, George, but my intention was not to say anything different than what you always said in all the years I was with Precision. You always made it clear that Precision's role was that of manufacturer, and that the job of continuance of airworthiness belonged to the riggers in the field. I didn't mean to get your feathers ruffled, I was stating what I've heard you say for twenty years.

No worries. No offense taken. I know you weren’t trying to bash anybody. I just take exception to the statement that “There are lofts and master riggers that will be able to give your canopy a better, more valid inspection than Precision.” Who and where would that be?

The statement “they are not in as much of a position nor have the personnel with the experience necessary to evaluate older gear” may be your opinion, but I disagree.

What I have been saying for 20 years is that determining the continuation of airworthiness is not my job unless I am the rigger repacking the reserve, but I can surely give the customer measurements of porosity and test the fabric strength, and give them a comparison to the same measurements on a new canopy, as well as measured canopy flight performance data that most lofts or master riggers can’t offer (at which time the customer may want to consider buying a new canopy, based on the interpretation of the empirical data)

As a manufacturer, we don’t want to compete with the people in the repack business, but I do want to provide services that most “lofts” can’t or don’t offer. I never suggested that there wouldn’t be a charge for the inspection and lab time.

I still love ya, Brooksie.

[mdrejhon 8]

Hi,

Anyone considering the Micro Raven 150 should be aware of what I learned when I researched about it. It's reportedly not very good if loaded it more heavily (1.3), and in that case, the flare can end pratically at shoulder level before it starts to stall:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1882049

I still jump it.

It can still be landed safely, but more tricky to land safely than modern parachutes. Eventually I'll likely replace it with a PD143R.

[mjosparky 4]

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I learned when I researched about it. It's reportedly not very good if loaded it more heavily (1.3),

Do you think it is advisable to jump any 7 cell reserve made of F-111 type material loaded to 1.3:1 with 150 jumps?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mdrejhon 8]

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Do you think it is advisable to jump any 7 cell reserve made of F-111 type material loaded to 1.3:1 with 150 jumps?

No - Not really - but this has already been discussed, Raven 150 versus PD143R safety issues and I agree with the moderators' advices too. CLICKY

I've been jumping 170 size (Was 1.1:1 then, now 1.15:1 after slight weight gain) for almost 100 jumps now -- so it's not the 150 size I am concerned about; it's my panicky mood after a cutaway and the weird flare. At least, I am aware of this. Also, it should be pointed out most agree that the PD143R is safer than a Raven Micro 150, relatively-speaking. There is the choice of buying a new container to hold a larger reserve. That may be considered if budget allows, but that isn't currently the case. I don't have plans to downsize my main this year, although some say I should practice-jump a rental 150 so I am more prepared for my reserves' wingloading. Also, I mainly jump at dropzones that have copius farmlands and outs, so the "land in a small backyard" isn't as big a problem yet... (My one jump at Skydive New England is a notable exception, though... Those who jumped there will know the importance of a good spot!)

I purchased this gear. Instructor approved. Without really knowing the problems of the Raven Micro. But, that's hindsight, 20/20. My mistake for not researching the reserve characteristics beforehand. I'm stuck with this gear combination for now. I could rent, but I choose to keep jumping my gear... (I absolutely love the Sabre 170, though!)

[mjosparky 4]

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although some say I should practice-jump a rental 150 so I am more prepared for my reserves' wingloading.

This would probably be a good idea, but make sure you demo a 7 cell. It will perform and land different than a 9 cell. A Canopy control class also comes to mind.

Stay safe and enjoy.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals