Spectre End Cell Closure. Spin?

[azureriders 0]

I had a spinning opening yesterday. The next time that happens will be the second time.

Body position was as good as normal I guess. Opening seemed normal until the end cells should have inflated. The left one did but not the right. The canopy made a quick 180. As my body was catching up with it and I was thinking how far off heading that was, the canopy went into a spin to the right. This was when I actually realized the right end cell had never inflated. The spin was fast but not extreme by any means. I checked my breaks and both were still stowed so I released them and went to 3/4 brakes which inflated the cell and every thing was fine. Dumped at 3500 and was full flight and on heading at 2200 so no real problems just a few questions.

I have had several end cell closures when I was renting gear, but that was the first one on my spectre. Should I expect a spin the next time it happens? If so, is that common among 7cells or just the spectre? Does this fall under the shit happens category, and have little to do with the end cell closure? I think you get the point, any info would be appreciated.

Also, inspection on the ground found that my bridal was torn 90% across its width between the bag and the attachment point, about an 1-1/2" from the grommet on the bag. The kill line was practically all that was holding the bag to the canopy when I landed. I disregarded this as having little to do with the spin, but if you think different...........

[davelepka 4]

It sounds like you should worry less about the minute details of your openings, and more on gear maintenence. Seriously.

What else is 90% worn through on your rig?

[bob.dino 1]

Quote

I have had several end cell closures when I was renting gear, but that was the first one on my spectre. Should I expect a spin the next time it happens? If so, is that common among 7cells or just the spectre?

Nope. Never did for me, in 400-odd jumps on my 190.

Quote

Also, inspection on the ground found that my bridal was torn 90% across its width between the bag and the attachment point, about an 1-1/2" from the grommet on the bag. The kill line was practically all that was holding the bag to the canopy when I landed. I disregarded this as having little to do with the spin, but if you think different...........

You're lucky. If I understand you correctly, you were very close to having a pilot chute in tow. Spend some time learning more about your gear...

[DiscoStu 0]

Repeating others here, I would be more concerned about gear maintenance than the end cell closure.

As for the spectre end cell closure spin, unfortunately I can't comment on the spectre specifically, but my sabre almost always opens with one or two end cells closed. It has put me into to a spin violent enough to give me mild spining line twists on a couple of occasions (and for those whom will say get it checked by a rigger it was relined 15 jumps ago). Usually a quick tug on the rear risers is enough to open them.

As for should you expect this to happen frequently. It probably doesn't really matter as long as it remains managable and is not dangerous. Any canopy can randomly have and end cell closure or open off heading. Expect it everytime so on the occasions it does happen you are prepared, can respond and prevent collsions with other canopies.

[duroejc 0]

I only had one spinning opening on my Spectre in 600 jumps- that one I cut away Iit was so bad.I put that into the shit happens catagory. I did have some slow openings and I replaced my pilotchute. I'd focus more on equipment maintenance

[azureriders 0]

My gear is in excellent shape and very well taken care of, however thanks for the concern. I think I was misunderstood about the condition of the bridle. The bridle was in excellent shape, and for that matter still is except for that one spot. There is seriously no wear apparent anywhere on the bridle. The point that is torn looks like you took it between two hands and tore it, like you would a piece of paper. Right next to the tear on either side, and I do mean ‘right’ next to it, there is no wear at all. I do inspect this part of the bridle each and every time I pack. I know this because I always remove the twists of the bridle from around the kill line.

As for the PC in tow, I thought the same thing. I was assured later, by a master rigger, that would not have happened even if it would have torn all the way in two.

[Guest 1010]

I have just over 100 jumps on a Spectre 190, exit wt 215, one in a while I pump the brakes to complete the end-cell inflation, but have never experienced something like that. I roll the nose some and roll/toss it in the bag, I prefer a brisker opening than the couple packers normally pack until I ask for it to open faster.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[Cloudi 0]

Quote

I roll the nose some and roll/toss it in the bag, I prefer a brisker opening

Sorry for the thread drift, but this is contradictory. You roll the nose to slow the openings, not speed them up. It's also an unnecessary step on most modern parachute designs, as far as I know.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[bob.dino 1]

Quote

Quote

I roll the nose some and roll/toss it in the bag, I prefer a brisker opening

Sorry for the thread drift, but this is contradictory. You roll the nose to slow the openings, not speed them up. It's also an unnecessary step on most modern parachute designs, as far as I know.

It was unnecessary on my Spectre 190. A bog-standard pro-pack does the job nicely.

[Guest 1010]

I don't pay to pack often, sometimes the last load of the day or if jumping at Eloy or something. And yes I know rolling the nose slows it down, but the way I pack with a little nose roll it it still opens quite a bit faster than whatever the "default" way several different packers have used, until I ask them for a faster opening. Hope that is clearer.

I have 90 jumps packing it the way I do, never been hit hard, only five off-heading openings, canopy hasn't sustained any damage, so I'll keep doing it this way.

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[Cloudi 0]

By all means, do what works best for you and gives you the most consistent openings.

Being a Spectre jumper myself, who curses her way through every pack job (because I loath it and only $ prevents me from having other people do it), I know that you can pretty much do anything to the pack job and it will still come out soft and on heading. It's just a super forgiving canopy.

I would just hate to see you switch to another canopy later on that isn't quite as forgiving and see that your current packing method causes more chaos than it is intended to prevent.

From my understanding, the nose roll is an "old school" way of preventing hard openings on a notoriously hard opening canopy (not brand or reputation, but in reality--each canopy has its own personality). It's probably still a valid solution to the occasional "problem child" canopy, but I suspect there are often other factors that contribute more directly to canopies that occasionally give you a whacker.

I think canopy designers have managed to slow openings so much that a standard pro pack (or whatever method works for each person and their respective canopy), without any extra hocus-pocus, usually gets the job done with pleasant results.

Packing is a mystery to me. I can be ever-so-meticulous and make sure every flake, s-fold, and line stow is picture perfect and still get a funky opening. Then, I can turn around and slop it into the bag with lines sticking out everywhere and get a text-book "perfect" opening. Go figure.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[Guest 1010]

>another canopy later on that isn't quite as forgiving and see that your current packing method causes more chaos than it is intended to prevent.

ditto that.

/end hijack

azureriders: (still a newbie here) Any more thoughts on what caused the bridal to tear? I'd be all over that - have you inspected all the grommets on your rig/slider/anyplace on the system, for rough spots? Is anything else torn or damaged anyplace on your parachute system? I'm contemplating that if the bridal tore, it was pulling against something else, and that something-else might also be damaged. .02

You can have it good, fast, or cheap: pick two.

[Cloudi 0]

Do you pack for yourself or do you have packers do it?

One advantage to packing for yourself is that when the opening doesn't go as expected, you can recall what happened during the pack-job and start deducting from there what really happened to make this one different.

I have no comment on the bridle tear. Sounds like your riggers will have to explain the causes for that one.

As I get more experience, I start to see where my own actions/reactions explain many of the unexpected things that happen during openings.

For example: I've been making a concentrated effort lately to not look at my openings until the canopy begins flying forward. It's a bad habit I've developed because the Spectre openings are just so darned pretty.
Several jumps ago, I thought to myself half-way through the opening, "I meant to have my knees together during the opening." I immediately put them together. Unfortunately, this was in the middle of the opening (while I stared at it), and it caused my canopy to turn sharply to the left. Fortunately, the camera flyer, jumping a Velocity, who went on the jump was paying attention and dived to avoid me (it can happen that fast during a sniveling opening!). Granted, maybe we didn't track far enough away from each other, but there again, I blame myself.

Two hundred jumps ago, I would have been thinking, "what the hell did that packer do?" Experience and my own pack jobs have taught me that it had nothing to do with packing, the canopy, or anything else and had everything to do with me.

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[fcajump 164]

Quote

I had a spinning opening yesterday. The next time that happens will be the second time.

Body position was as good as normal I guess. Opening seemed normal until the end cells should have inflated. The left one did but not the right. The canopy made a quick 180. As my body was catching up with it and I was thinking how far off heading that was, the canopy went into a spin to the right. This was when I actually realized the right end cell had never inflated. The spin was fast but not extreme by any means. I checked my breaks and both were still stowed so I released them and went to 3/4 brakes which inflated the cell and every thing was fine. Dumped at 3500 and was full flight and on heading at 2200 so no real problems just a few questions.

I have had several end cell closures when I was renting gear, but that was the first one on my spectre. Should I expect a spin the next time it happens? If so, is that common among 7cells or just the spectre? Does this fall under the shit happens category, and have little to do with the end cell closure? I think you get the point, any info would be appreciated.

Also, inspection on the ground found that my bridal was torn 90% across its width between the bag and the attachment point, about an 1-1/2" from the grommet on the bag. The kill line was practically all that was holding the bag to the canopy when I landed. I disregarded this as having little to do with the spin, but if you think different...........

Might have missed it, but have you had someone check the line trim on the canopy? (Use PD's method to check it correctly.)

Check the trim, fix the bridle, watch your gear, careful in packing and enjoy.

Jim
(~400 jumps on my Spectre 230)

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[darkwing 5]

600 jumps on a spectre 190. No spinners (except one due to a mis-stowed brake, but that doesn't count). End cell closures were not common, and never resulted in spins.

Have a rigger look at the bag/grommet/bridle... Unless the pilot chute was transiently around some lines, I can't believe the tear there has anything to do with the spin. And if it did I wouldn't expect the damage to be where I understand it is. In my experience, such damage is usually a gradual thing that just doesn't get noticed for a while, as it progresses.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[azureriders 0]

The part of the bridle that was damaged does not pass through or come in contact with any grommet or other hardware. My bridle (which is at the rigger's loft so I can't look at it for a better description) has a link on either side of the bag grommet and therefore there is no travel of the bridle back and forth through the grommet. The tear was about an 1-1/2" from the link on the INSIDE of the bag, between the bag and canopy.

I do pack for myself most of the time, and agree with the crowd that thinks I should. I do have lower back problems and when it is bothering me I tend to pay a packer. This particular openning was packed by a packer, the same packer I always use and trust. I don't really think any of it was pack related. I am more for the shit happens category.

I sent the rig home with my rigger with instructions to fix the bridle and give my main a complete examination for damage, wear, trim, etc, what ever he could find. He also said that he did not think the tear in the bridle had any thing to do with the spin. I agree from my limited knowledge, but still find it odd that there apears to be no wear in the bridle, just all of a sudden a tear.

Thanks for all the info. I was just curious if this happened often with spectres or 7cells. Glad to know that it dosen't, but like someone else said, it was no big deal and very manigable.

[hobbes4star 0]

I jump a 150 and I understand what you are saying. I do the same thing to speed up the openings.

if fun were easy it wouldn't be worth having, right?

[damion75 0]

Hard spin sounds pretty extreme for a spectre loaded like that. I don't remember any end-cell closure on my spectre, but I get it almost every time on my Heatwave (9-cell fully eliptical loaded at 1.52) and that causes only a slight turn which I can hold on my legs while I deal with the slider. Perhaps this was a symptom of something else? Like a lineover which cured itself?

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.