Sabre2 Canopy for a newbie?

[BannanaGirl 0]

I am in the process of looking for my own gear. I however have had VERY mixed opinions on what canopy I should buy and it is really starting to confuse me somewhat.

I am seriously losing the will to live here!

I weigh 145lbs and I am 5ft 5 but my comfort weight zone is 130lbs. This means even at my heaviest and with gear added on I would have an exit weight of 1:1 on a 170 canopy.

I have been looking at Sabre2 to buy or more like this is what seems to be the one that keeps coming up in rigs that maybe suitable (Size issues on harness fit). Now some people say I would have no problems and others start hyperventilating and tutting uncontrollably when I mention it.

I am even thinking of going down the custom route and again I would have to select a canopy to go in and again the Sabre2 seems the sensible option here.

I would say I am not a bad canopy pilot, I land pretty much where I want to, I am pretty conservative under canopy. As for being a female and having height and spatial awarness issues I would say I don't, infact I know I don't, so that is not an issue for me.

Thanks for any advice in advance.

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[riggerrob 643]

Sabres are specifically designed for junior, casual, weekend jumpers.
Other manufacturers make similar - slightly tapered, nine cells: Hornet, Pilot, Safire, etc.
Just keep your wing-loading in the one pound per square foot range for your first or two hundred jumps

[doorgirl 0]

I highly suggest demoing the canopy just to see what you think about how it flies. I demoed a Sabre2 210 and I thought the turns felt WAY too quick. I may just be a wimp, but I am sure glad I know that before buying a Sabre2! Next demo jump was a Spectre 190, and while I lost the same amount of altitude in a "hard" 360 on both canopies, I personally preferred the Spectre about 1,000,000:1. Rough estimate. I'm in love with the Spectre, but that's another thread.

If you have used rigs in your area with the Sabre2 170 it shouldn't be too hard to demo it (at least I think it won't but what do I know). As far as other "comparable" canopies, I spoke with the gear store about Pilot and Safire2's too. They really wanted me to try the Pilot and told me that compared to the Sabre2 it was "turnier" up high but much easier to land, but in favor of keeping my jumpsuit a non-brown color I refused since the turny up high is what scared me. They said that I wouldn't like the Safire2 if I didn't like the turns on the Sabre2 and refused the Pilot. Your experience will differ, but in case it's tough to get demos where you are I wanted to provide another newbie's experiences.

Good luck on your search!

[GrumpySmurf 0]

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Now some people say I would have no problems and others start hyperventilating and tutting uncontrollably when I mention it.

The question is - which group are the former, which group are the latter? If the the latter are your instructors who are hyperventilating, and the former, the local 100 jump wonder swoop gods saying 'go for it' - you may wish to continue hunting. If vice versa, the S2 might just be for you.

You haven't mentioned what you have been jumping, both model and sizewise, and how the landings have been going - so the answer - yeah, a S2 170 would be perfect, or no, a S2 170 would not be the best canopy for you, could result and be totally inaccurate.

Also, what kind of canopy coaching program does your DZ offer? This will affect a recommendation. If all they have had you on have been Mantas, and don't offer canopy flying classes/coaching - find somewhere that does. It will pay huge dividends in the long run - regardless of what you decide to buy.

Drop PD a line as well, let them know what you have been jumping, how the landings have been going, and maybe they will recommend a S2 to demo, or maybe there is another canopy in thier lineup that is better suited to you - or maybe the S2 is just perfect.

Clear as mud, eh?


BTW - I've jumped one for about 70% of my limited jumping career and loved it. But I have seen people take the S2 and slam themselves into the ground with enough force to make you amazed that they survived, I've seen others do perfect tip toe landings with it - in the end, it all depends on the individual, and thier flying ability.

Good luck in the hunt!

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[BannanaGirl 0]

I initially learnt on a Navigator 240 and I am currently on a HUGE bird of a thing a Pathfinder 280, so it takes me like an hour to decend to earth, god help me when I start hitting the thermals...I'll think I am a Buzzard or something!

However I will say that the last thousand feet just seem to go "whoom" at me as it just seems so slow and then suddenly it is very quick my decent.

My landing patterns are all cool and I flare pretty much bang on with stand up landings and the occasional fall over...usually to do with me looking directly at the ground and not more in front of me. I am getting that technique a bit better now.

I would say the response is mixed being experienced jumpers and instructors alike saying mixed things about it. Thing is I respect all of their opinions.

Hence why I am in a bit of a spin about it all.

Canopy coaching is a good idea. I do know somewhere that offers it so maybe I should try and get out there soon to do it. The old brain is ticking now!

[stratostar 5]

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But I have seen people take the S2 and slam themselves into the ground with enough force to make you amazed that they survived, I've seen others do perfect tip toe

You can do that with any canopy on the market.
It has nothing to do with the canopy, and everything to do with the pilot.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[pjc 0]

I recommend you try a pilot, perfect openings, predictable turns, easy to land.. I've had a 188, currently jump a 168 at 1.2 : 1 (and getting nice 90 FR performance(ish) landings or mellow straight in's)and I have a 150 on order. I am a fan!!

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[kingbunky 3]

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Sabres are specifically designed for junior, casual, weekend jumpers.
Other manufacturers make similar - slightly tapered, nine cells: Hornet, Pilot, Safire, etc.
Just keep your wing-loading in the one pound per square foot range for your first or two hundred jumps

don't forget to consider a lotus!

"Hang on a sec, the young'uns are throwin' beer cans at a golf cart."
MB4252 TDS699
killing threads since 2001

[ChrisL 2]

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I recommend you try a pilot, perfect openings, predictable turns, easy to land.. I've had a 188, currently jump a 168 at 1.2 : 1 (and getting nice 90 FR performance(ish) landings or mellow straight in's)and I have a 150 on order. I am a fan!!

I second this rec for the Pilot.

I've had 2 Sabre2's and I loved them both. Can NOT beat the flying characteristics and the flare is awesome. They both gave me some squirrely, off heading openings fairly often though.

I'm jumping a Pilot now and it has nice soft on heading openings, flies beautifully.

Not quite as much flare as the Sabre2 and it doesnt feel quite as responsive, but once I was used to the difference its been great.

For a beginner I'd highly recommend the Pilot. The fact that it costs slightly less is nice too ;-)

__

My mighty steed

[GrumpySmurf 0]

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You can do that with any canopy on the market.
It has nothing to do with the canopy, and everything to do with the pilot.

Hmm, I didn't realize the gov't censors blacked out my qualifier,
"- in the end, it all depends on the individual, and thier flying ability. " for you.

Sneaky gov't censors, I tell you!

[Fast 0]

Are people gasping at your choice of canopy type or size?


The canopies that are most often recomended to starting jumpers are, Saber 2, Pilot, Safire 2, spectre. All of them canopys offer flight characteristics that are condusive to a newer jumper just learning about flying a parachute. My first canopy was a saber2 170. I learned on Manta 280s, jumped some rental 210, jumped rental saber2 190, jumped rental saber2 170, then decided I liked that and bought one. I did this with the guidance of the instructor whom I trusted most and it worked out great.

The choice of a saber2, or any other canopy that I mentioned isn't bad. Each have things they offer. The pilot opens nicer than a saber2, some say the saber2 flies nicer though. I don't think there is much of a difference.

People might be freaking out about your choice of size, if you are an average jumper a 170 is probally going to be ok, but its hard to say that w/o knowing you and seeing you land and all that. Work with someone at your DZ to find out what is going to be a perfect fit for you. Going right from a 280 to a 170 is much to large of a jump. You need to jump some stuff inbetween and learn more about canopy flight.

Bottom line, the saber 2 is an ok, and highly recomended canopy for new jumpers. Every new student at my home DZ first jumps on a big Manta 280 then we work them down to an appropriatly sized saber 2. From there they are free to demo and try and buy whatever they want, as soon as they get thier A.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[GravityGirl 0]

IMHO as a gear dealer and an AFF-I, I suggest you don't limit your choices to a specific brand when purchasing used for your first canopy.

There are many great canopies out there. With your initial light wing loading of 1:1, the slight difference in flight charactoristics may not be too noticable.

Some good choices include, but are not limited to:

Silhouette
Spectre
Sabre2
Lotus
Safire
Omega
Pilot
Triathalon
Synergy

Keep in mind wing loading. Have a rigger and/or insturctor make sure your brake lines are not too short.

If you have not having issues with your landings, it 170 is a decent choice. Keep in mind, it's not a good idea to jump from the 288 to the 170. Do a few jumps on each progression. 260, 230, 210, 190. If each set of jumps feel good. You are confident, comfortable and in control, then proceed. If you have any hang ups or issues, just sit on that size until you dial it out.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Nightingale 0]

I have a spectre and a silhouette. I demoed a sabre, but it felt too twitchy for me.

[tso-d_chris 0]

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I have a spectre and a silhouette. I demoed a sabre, but it felt too twitchy for me.

A fine example of why it is such a good idea to DEMO FIRST!!!!!!!

There's lots of good canopies out there, but there is not a single one that is best for everybody.

For Great Deals on Gear

[BannanaGirl 0]

I do not want to limit myself to a particular type of canopy but the Sabre2 just seems to be in all the rigs that I have shown an interest in mainly due to the harness fit , size of previous owner etc. I guess I could always sell the canopy and put in another one if I find the right container which is really important to me as well if I end up buying used.

I suppose another factor is resale time esp on custom I have had made. I have been told that say a Javelin with a Sabre in it would be more re-saleable than with a Pilot in. Obviously this would be my first rig so I would like to hold as much of the value in as possible for when it comes to getting a second. However it is ONLY money at the end of the day and I want to have as much fun and safe canopy flight as possible so I won't forfeit my safety for cash. I have spent enough of it to be past caring now about balances I think!

Anyway thanks for all the advice so far! I guess the right thing will pop out at the right time for me. I will just have to learn the ways of the Jedi I guess and be patient for now.

Di

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[GravityGirl 0]

Okay. But I think a Jedei is too aggressive for you right now. LOL. Joke.

I find that in the www market both the Sabre2 and the Pilot are easily resaleable canopies. Particularly 170 or 190. So not too much worry about that.

Good luck in your quest.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[bob.dino 1]

Be aware that the Sabre and Sabre2 are different beasties, and that the resale on a Sabre2 is much higher than on an original Sabre. The Sabre2, Pilot, and Safire2 are all canopies that, when loaded at about 1.0, are regularly recommended for jumpers buying their first set of gear.

[adventurechick 0]

I'm right there with you... I've heard from some people that Sabre 2's have crazy hard openings... then other people swear by them!! It is confusing.

PMS #449 TPM #80 Muff Brother #3860
SCR #14705 Dirty Sanchez #233

[justinb138 0]

Sabre2's aren't known for hard openings more than any other canopy. There have been some Sabre 1's with opening issues, but the Sabre2 is a completely different canopy.

[ChrisL 2]

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Sabre2's aren't known for hard openings more than any other canopy. .

Depends on who you ask.
I've heard many people say this and they said it about Sabre2's as well as Sabres.

I dont happen to agree though. I had two of them and neither of them were hard opening canopies.

I did have one SERIOUSLY hard opening on a Sabre2 190 that actually grounded me for a couple months but I firmly believe that it was a packing issue and not something specific to Sabre2's

__

My mighty steed

[Fast 0]

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Sabre2's aren't known for hard openings more than any other canopy. .

Depends on who you ask.
I've heard many people say this and they said it about Sabre2's as well as Sabres.

I dont happen to agree though. I had two of them and neither of them were hard opening canopies.

I did have one SERIOUSLY hard opening on a Sabre2 190 that actually grounded me for a couple months but I firmly believe that it was a packing issue and not something specific to Sabre2's

Saber 2s are NOT known for hard openings. The people who say they are typically have either, confused them with a saber 1, or are buying into what someones brothers second cousin told them.

The saber2 is one of the most popular canopies on the market. ALL canopies can smack you with a hard opening now and then. There are just that many more saber 2s out there that you hear about it a little more. Do a search on this, you will find it has been posted about COUNTLESS times.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[dragon2 2]

Not true.... We had 2 or 3 pretty hard opening sabre2's at our DZ. Me on the ground: SMACK ah so-and-so has opened... Usually with a build-in turn too.

Not sure if it has to do with wingloading or something, since at least one was sold and the guy had no probs at 1:1, and I think these sabre2's were all early ones, maybe PD changed something. But yeah they can definately open f*ng hard One guy visiting our DZ lost his for a while after a cutaway, he was actually glad of it (he was insured so that helped). When it was found 2 days later he prompty sold it and bought a safire2.

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[ChrisL 2]

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Saber 2s are NOT known for hard openings. The people who say they are typically have either, confused them with a saber 1, or are buying into what someones brothers second cousin told them.

The saber2 is one of the most popular canopies on the market. ALL canopies can smack you with a hard opening now and then. There are just that many more saber 2s out there that you hear about it a little more. Do a search on this, you will find it has been posted about COUNTLESS times.

Dude, you are preaching to the choir.

Maybe you should read my post before you respond to it

First off, I did not say that Sabre2's are known for hard openings,
I said that I have heard people say that they are.

I also clearly state that I do not agree with those that say that in spite of one very hard opening that I did experience on a Sabre2.
I attributed that to packing error.

People DO say it. I believe they are wrong, but like it or not they do say it.

__

My mighty steed

[Cloudi 0]

*Reply not aimed at anyone in particular, just at the example expressed in dragon2's post*

I will never understand why people keep jumping a canopy that they and/or everyone else considers "hard opening" or otherwise defective. It baffles me. It's not how modern canopies are designed. My money is hard earned and I simply wouldn't tolerate it.

Here's a thought: contact the manufacturer and have the problem straightened out.

From my observations, working for a manufacturer and being surrounded by others, 9 out of 10, the problem is not with the gear. It is most often packing error, body position, freefall speed, gear compatibility, a total misunderstanding of the product's characteristics, the alignment of the moon and the earth (just kidding), and so on.

When you do contact the manufacturer, take their suggestions/advice seriously. Test it all out. If it still does not improve the situation, contact them again and send it back for professional evaluation!

In the cases where there is a problem canopy, the company I work for is always willing to do everything in their power to correct the issue (as are many, I hope). Whether it be helping their customer find the solution within themselves (very difficult to consider YOU can be the problem, I know--from experience), correcting the existing canopy, making a new one, or suggesting another canopy more suitable for the indivdual, they will go waaaayyyy out of their way to make the customer happy with their purchase (new or used).

I'll never understand why people sit around and bitch about a product, but won't take the 10 minutes to discuss it with the manufacturer. Do they expect their friends and fellow jumpers to make it all better??

I cannot stress this enough: If you are not happy with your canopy (rig, helmet, alti, car, television, computer, lawn service, toilet paper, etc.), please don't sit around and bitch about it. Contact the manufacturer (or dealer) and let them make it better!!! If the manufacturer doesn't make any effort to assist you, THEN raise hell and bitch about it.

End of rant. Please continue with your regularly scheduled thread...

[dragon2 2]

True. In one case the girl jumped hers for over 2 years I think without complaining to PD. Loads of (working) jumps. Other people jumped the canopy too, it definately had a problem. When PD found out later, after she'd already sold it, they were like "why didn't you tell us?!" But the guy who bought it never had any trouble with it .

ciel bleu,
Saskia