Very fast progress in EV's going on . . .

[billvon 2,998]

For the past 20 years I've been watching what's going on with electric vehicles, because I always thought they were the ultimate answer to our transportation-energy problems. For a long time, there was just very little progress. No shortage of ideas; I remember a 1975 Popular Mechanics that had a hybrid vehicle. A turbine genset from an airplane charged a battery bank and the batteries ran an electric motor. But nothing panned out.

In 1992 I worked on a Ford project called the "VCC110" that later became the Impact. This time there was a lot more progress, but again nothing panned out. (For several reasons; they did a documentary on what happened.)

Nowadays we're reaching a sort of critical mass. The Prius has put partially electric vehicles in many people's hands, and we have groups dedicated to converting them into pluggable HEV's. A123 (and others) have started to produce extremely usable batteries as real batteries, not laboratory curiosities. They are in such demand that people are buying DeWalt drill batteries, taking them apart, keeping the cells and tossing eveything else. Car companies are realizing that they can either get into EV's/hybrids or go the way of Edsel.

A similar event is happening in the small-EV market, specifically ebikes and NEV's (neighborhood EV's.) NEV's are small vehicles limited to 25 or 30mph intended for town usage, but at least two companies I know of are selling NEV's that require only a simple mod to be able to do 50-60mph. There are obviously licensing issues with these.

Ebikes are changing even faster. The advent of the A123 cells and newer li-polymer batteries are giving people ranges of 60 miles or more. The first ebikes used frame-mounted motors, but nowadays hub motors are taking over, making them much easier to install. Power levels have climbed steadily, and today there are hub motors that will operate happily at 5kW. I know one guy who put together a two-wheel-drive bike that should hit 10kW output (about 14 hp) and should easily do 60mph. It's a bit easier to do this 'under the radar' since electric bikes are completely unregulated as long as they can be limited to 20mph and 1000 watts - and several people sell controllers that can limit ebikes to those speeds. (Disable-able, of course.) The people working on them have gradually changed from hobbyists who want a way to toodle around town to speed freaks who want to go really, really fast for significant distances. (For the ultimate in _that_ there is now an A123-based motorcycle that's hitting 168mph/7.8 seconds in the 1/4 mile.)

Going to be an interesting few years.

[virgin-burner 1]

do they have the gentle guzzling sound of a v8 6.0?

if not..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[billvon 2,998]

> do they have the gentle guzzling sound of a v8 6.0?

Nope. In fact watching the 1/4 mile is creepy. No noise.

I must say though it's pretty cool to be able to do 40mph down a street and not even have people look up as you go by.

[CSpenceFLY 1]

I suspect if you follow the money trail there is a huge influx of either government or investment money (I would vote government) that have made the progress feasible. Probably making the first products affordable by subsidizing their production.

[NewGuy2005 53]

I rented a Prius last week, out of curiosity. It was an awesome car. I would not hesitate to buy one, now.

On a related note: Bill, I assume you've seen Who Killed the Electric Car? Can you comment on the veracity of the documentary? I have not seen it, but plan to.

[billvon 2,998]

> I suspect if you follow the money trail there is a huge influx of
> either government or investment money (I would vote government) that
> have made the progress feasible.

Well, let's see:

The best new motors (Crystalyte) come from China.
The newest controllers (branded Crystalyte) originate in China and are rebuilt with better FETs by a guy in Canada.
Charge monitors coming from Canada.
Best li-ions are coming from Japan.
A123's are coming from the US.

There's no doubt that governments have invested money in such things in the past (primarily battery research) but I think it's reached that magic point where you don't need government any more; the technology is now good enough that there's a demand for it, and that demand will fuel further advances.

[Esquilax 0]

Great! Now make them affordable to the average American worker and we've kicked the Saudi oil barons in the junk permanently.

Until then it's all academic to those of us not making $100,000+/yr.

Ostriches and rheas are the only birds that urinate and defecate separately. They read Parachutist while doing #2.

[Ripple 0]

Quote

Nope. In fact watching the 1/4 mile is creepy. No noise.

I must say though it's pretty cool to be able to do 40mph down a street and not even have people look up as you go by.

I seem to remember that being a safety issue and there being talk of introducing an artificial noise because of it?

Next Mood Swing: 6 minutes

[Remster 30]

Quote

Great! Now make them affordable to the average American worker and we've kicked the Saudi oil barons in the junk permanently.

Until then it's all academic to those of us not making $100,000+/yr.

To claim you need to make more the 100K a year to buy a Prius or Civic Hybrid is pretty lame IMO.

Remster

[virgin-burner 1]

i know how e-karts are going off.. not to compare really, but they're notable faster than their gas-competitors.. to a certain degree of course. but they have all the torque right from the beginning on..

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[billvon 2,998]

>Bill, I assume you've seen Who Killed the Electric Car? Can you
>comment on the veracity of the documentary? I have not seen it, but
>plan to.

I thought it was quite accurate, and pretty even handed. They looked at a bunch of possible reasons, and in the end concluded:

Consumers — Guilty
Batteries — Not Guilty
Oil companies — Guilty
Car companies — Guilty
Government — Guilty
California Air Resources Board — Guilty
Hydrogen fuel cell — Guilty

In other words, there was no one evil person/corporation who killed it - there were a lot of factors.

[diablopilot 2]

Quote

Great! Now make them affordable to the average American worker and we've kicked the Saudi oil barons in the junk permanently.

Until then it's all academic to those of us not making $100,000+/yr.

Wanna do that easily? Push the alternate fuel that would be easiest for this entire nation to convert to.

Alcohol.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[billvon 2,998]

>Great! Now make them affordable to the average American worker . . .

Tidalforce ebike - $3000 (30mph)

Toyota Prius - $20,000

PHEV conversion for Prius - $10,000

Ford Expedition - $30,000

[billvon 2,998]

>I seem to remember that being a safety issue and there being
> talk of introducing an artificial noise because of it?

My Prius used to beep when it was backing up since the gas engine was off and it made no noise. It was annoying so I disabled it. I imagine, though, you could put in a big PA speaker with an MP3 player that played the noise of a big V8. Would solve two problems at once!

[Esquilax 0]

Quote

>Great! Now make them affordable to the average American worker . . .

Tidalforce ebike - $3000 (30mph)

Toyota Prius - $20,000

PHEV conversion for Prius - $10,000

Ford Expedition - $30,000

Now run the numbers on the feasibility for someone making $35,000/yr before taxes who has a family to support.

Ostriches and rheas are the only birds that urinate and defecate separately. They read Parachutist while doing #2.

[virgin-burner 1]

wouldnt that be too funny!?

“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.”
-Hunter S. Thompson
"No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try."
-Yoda

[diablopilot 2]

I think they are figuring that if you can afford a new car of any type you ca afford a Hybrid. True Enough.

However we don't have a history of used Hybrids yet. Can someone by a 10 year old Hybrid and expect it to be as reliable as a IC car? Or do the Hybrids go to the landfill?

Shade tree mechanics are not going to be interested in the hybrid.

Cars used to be around much longer, have we created a new problem?

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Remster 30]

Quote

Now run the numbers on the feasibility for someone making $35,000/yr before taxes who has a family to support.

So which is it, 35K or 100K?

And so you know, the average familly income in the US is around 70K. So if you want to claim something about "the average" person, I'd pick another number then 35K if I were you.

Remster

[TheAnvil 0]

Cool stuff! I like the ebikes.

Vinny the Anvil
Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL
JACKASS POWER!!!!!!

[Phillbo 11]

CAT - Compressed Air Technology has great potential.

[billvon 2,998]

>Now run the numbers on the feasibility for someone making $35,000/yr
>before taxes who has a family to support.

In that case, Electra Townie - $350.

[riddler 0]

Ultimately, I agree that electric cars are going to be the best long-term solution. I think that we need to be just as quick converting power sources (utilities). If there is a great increase in electric cars over the next 10-20 years, we are going to face increased pollution, since EVs pollute more if you are getting your electricity from the power company that's burning fossil fuels (about 70% of US power companies are still fossil fuel).

If we can put an equal amount of effort into better power sources, while at the same time converting to EVs, we can accomplish a lot in terms of gas emissions. My neighbors are having solar panels installed at their own cost of about $30,000. You can also get hydrothermal heat if you're willing to pay about $15,000. The power companies are offering alternative power sources at an increased cost to consumers. If people demand this of the politicians, the politicians may eventually stop taking money from the power companies and start forcing them to convert. Nuclear power, although unpopular, may be the best option for clean electricity, but solar and wind farms can supplement, and maybe even replace them over a very long period. Even if we do none of those things, the government can mandate stricter fuel emissions on current fossil fuel sites.

My point is that we have to do both. EVs plus cleaner power sources. Ask your local utility where they get their electricity. Maybe they freewheel the electricity, in which case, you have very little control. But if they get a large percentage from your local hydroelectric dam, you may be a good candidate for an EV (an an increased cost in water pollution). You may be able to do something now. Excel energy in CO offers electricity that comes only from wind power-plants at an increased cost.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Esquilax 0]

Quote

>Now run the numbers on the feasibility for someone making $35,000/yr
>before taxes who has a family to support.

In that case, Electra Townie - $350.

As functional as a car?

Until it is cheaper, more available than, and as functional as a traditional IC-powered car, it's gonna be DOA.

Ostriches and rheas are the only birds that urinate and defecate separately. They read Parachutist while doing #2.

[ryoder 1,590]

Quote

I seem to remember that being a safety issue and there being talk of introducing an artificial noise because of it?

Bullshit! First, drivers use their eyes, not their ears to detect other traffic, else we would need to ban auto-stereos and require windows to always be open while driving. Second, if we are going to argue that pedestrians need to be able to hear the engines of vehicles for safety, then we better ban bicycles. I routinely operate at speeds up to 50 mph (on the downhills) on my bike, and with a total weight over 200 lbs, I could do a lot of damage to a pedestrian.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[billvon 2,998]

>As functional as a car?

Around here - yes!