bigbearfng 18 #26 August 24, 2009 Quote Quote >Of course, I'm just a dorkzoner instead of a real skydiver, so feel free to disregard any concerns expressed here. No not necessarily. You've seen it happen, ok. Now if you're going to say that this happens to be a signifcant problem, I would say you're a dorkzoner. Like I said, I've never seen it happen and no one else I know has seen it happen. Maybe they just have better traffic controllers at Perris/Elsinore? Sometimes I have to remember that all DZ's and their safety-culture are not created equal Hmmm, My home DZ is Perris and both times for me were at Perris...... Talk to Tim bout aircraft not on radio and flyin HUA...... For me-one a new pilot toolin along low and cruised under our 4 way as we opened-a slow moving 182 out and low against the ground is tough to see. (I look closer now!) Second was a small jet-blasted thru jump run between groups at bout 9000ft. He was goin fast!!!! At his speed he had to be so far away on exit I don't think anyone could know he was coming till too late. And I'm sure I looked real spastic pointin at that jet with my eyes bugged out! O boy! Can I be a dorkzoner now too?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #27 August 24, 2009 Quote Quote Quote >Of course, I'm just a dorkzoner instead of a real skydiver, so feel free to disregard any concerns expressed here. No not necessarily. You've seen it happen, ok. Now if you're going to say that this happens to be a signifcant problem, I would say you're a dorkzoner. Like I said, I've never seen it happen and no one else I know has seen it happen. Maybe they just have better traffic controllers at Perris/Elsinore? Sometimes I have to remember that all DZ's and their safety-culture are not created equal Hmmm, My home DZ is Perris and both times for me were at Perris...... Talk to Tim bout aircraft not on radio and flyin HUA...... For me-one a new pilot toolin along low and cruised under our 4 way as we opened-a slow moving 182 out and low against the ground is tough to see. (I look closer now!) Second was a small jet-blasted thru jump run between groups at bout 9000ft. He was goin fast!!!! At his speed he had to be so far away on exit I don't think anyone could know he was coming till too late. And I'm sure I looked real spastic pointin at that jet with my eyes bugged out! O boy! Can I be a dorkzoner now too?! Wow, that's crazy. Never seen that happen at Perris. When did this happen? Yeah, you can be a dorkzoner if you want to add significance to a situation that has never been a significant cause of near misses, injuries, or fatalities in skydiving. Don't forget, we're talking about near misses, and indirectly referring to people getting hit because why else would we care about near misses? And my original response was refering to that type of situation being a problem. It's not. Jut skim through the fatality lists... Let's focus more on the 80%, not the 20% Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bigbearfng 18 #28 August 24, 2009 The jet's been a couple years now and the Cessna was before that. So yea it should be called rare occurences, but the "impact" of the potential sure does make a lasting impression and seems significant when it's your own butt puckering up out there! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #29 August 24, 2009 Quoteisnt radoing between ground and pilot a standard procedure!? "bla-bla-bla, you may drop"!? and i've seen planes underflying a whole load too, its not as if they wouldnt hear the conversation that is going on between ground and plane.. I don't know about European airspace, but for much of the U.S., you don't need permission from a controller to jump, just check in minutes earlier to get traffic advisories. In that same type of airspace, other aircraft are free to fly through without talking to the air traffic controller, just using VFR sea-and-avoid rules to prevent collisions. As the Hudson river incident showed the other day, some pilots are better traffic scanners than others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #30 August 24, 2009 > Jut skim through the fatality lists... I can think of six people altogether. Four in a Piper Cherokee that a skydiver ran into; skydiver survived. One who was struck by an Otter. One who hit a trailing aircraft in a formation and was killed. I consider six a "significant number." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,447 #31 August 25, 2009 I believe there was a woman out in California in the late 70's or very earlyl 80's as well. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #32 August 25, 2009 Quote> Jut skim through the fatality lists... I can think of six people altogether. Four in a Piper Cherokee that a skydiver ran into; skydiver survived. One who was struck by an Otter. One who hit a trailing aircraft in a formation and was killed. I consider six a "significant number." ok...so that's 2 skydivers total, right? And what year did this happen? It's significant when people die, but come on man!!!! seriously? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #33 August 25, 2009 QuoteI believe there was a woman out in California in the late 70's or very earlyl 80's as well. Wendy P. Yeah, and I heard about a guy from the 40's that hit an airplane in GERMANY! To make it easier, please scan back the past 5 years and see how many people you can come up with that nailed a plane in mid-air... I don't even know why I'm still in this thread. This crap is hardly in your control. You can scan before exit, but really with a plane traveling at a high speed, you're probably not going to see it any way. Might as well discuss things that are a significant problem and in your control....outta here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jclalor 12 #34 August 30, 2009 Last year in Hollister at 12k in a 206 just as we opened the door to spot we had another AC pass from our left 100 ft directly below us. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pulse 0 #35 November 20, 2009 Quote> Jut skim through the fatality lists... I can think of six people altogether. Four in a Piper Cherokee that a skydiver ran into; skydiver survived. One who was struck by an Otter. One who hit a trailing aircraft in a formation and was killed. I consider six a "significant number." The Cherokee vs. skydiver incident. Yes, let's look at that one. However, the Otter in formation is far from the type of accident we're talking about. There was also a woman who collided with a Pitts at an airshow years ago. Again, that Pitts was in formation with the jump plane for the demo and she elected to exit anyway. Not the situation we're discussing when it comes to spotting and scanning the sky. From what I remember about the Cherokee crash. The skydiver and cherokee collided about 500 feet below exit altitude. The Cherokee was approaching from the pilot's left/front quarter of the jump plane. Seeing that the jump door on Cessnas is on the right side, this brings into light that whole checking underneath the aircraft concept. In 18 years of skydiving, I've seen someone do this only once. However, I have seen far too many go-arounds on jump because someone saw an airplane directly below. A practice that is completely ridiculous."Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #36 November 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteI believe there was a woman out in California in the late 70's or very earlyl 80's as well. Wendy P. Yeah, and I heard about a guy from the 40's that hit an airplane in GERMANY! To make it easier, please scan back the past 5 years and see how many people you can come up with that nailed a plane in mid-air... I don't even know why I'm still in this thread. This crap is hardly in your control. You can scan before exit, but really with a plane traveling at a high speed, you're probably not going to see it any way. Might as well discuss things that are a significant problem and in your control....outta here. Can I be on your ash dive? SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #37 November 20, 2009 QuoteI have seen far too many go-arounds on jump because someone saw an airplane directly below. A practice that is completely ridiculous. I understand what you're saying, because if the plane is way underneath you, then by the time you descend to his altitude, he won't be there anymore - he'll be somewhere else. At least you hope so, assuming he continues in a straight line. And that's the problem I have with your dismissal of this as a problem. He could be checking-out the airport in preparation for landing, and circle back. He could do almost anything - you don't know. And because you don't know, you should do a go-around on jump run so that you can ensure that he has in fact cleared the area before you exit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Pulse 0 #38 November 20, 2009 QuoteQuoteI have seen far too many go-arounds on jump because someone saw an airplane directly below. A practice that is completely ridiculous. I understand what you're saying, because if the plane is way underneath you, then by the time you descend to his altitude, he won't be there anymore - he'll be somewhere else. At least you hope so, assuming he continues in a straight line. And that's the problem I have with your dismissal of this as a problem. He could be checking-out the airport in preparation for landing, and circle back. He could do almost anything - you don't know. And because you don't know, you should do a go-around on jump run so that you can ensure that he has in fact cleared the area before you exit. Your average "checking out the airport" is going to take much longer than your freefall. Aside from any sort of aerobatics going on. Put me in the catagory of aligning this with the 'golden BB' idea."Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyjumpenfool 2 #39 November 23, 2009 We've seen this many times!! Way to many to dismiss it. Keep your eyes open all the time. Always be checking the skis for aircraft,,,,, or ufo's, or cute little angels, or..... sorry, the voices in my head got me distracted for a minute....Birdshit & Fools Productions "Son, only two things fall from the sky." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #40 December 1, 2009 I'm just a dorkzoner, but I've still seen (with my eyes) two near misses, in two different countries, in my short time in the sport too. Or if you count the glider with his radio off who nearly managed to hit every group on a load as he flew up the jumprun (people passing both sides of him IIRC), that number could be bigger. Just sayin'... maybe you (and everyone you know) just live somewhere with better ATC than the norm.-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #41 December 10, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteI believe there was a woman out in California in the late 70's or very earlyl 80's as well. Wendy P. Yeah, and I heard about a guy from the 40's that hit an airplane in GERMANY! To make it easier, please scan back the past 5 years and see how many people you can come up with that nailed a plane in mid-air... I don't even know why I'm still in this thread. This crap is hardly in your control. You can scan before exit, but really with a plane traveling at a high speed, you're probably not going to see it any way. Might as well discuss things that are a significant problem and in your control....outta here. Can I be on your ash dive? Sparky What a moronic statement. You're basically saying that I have an increased chance of hitting a plane (uncontrollable event), even though I take the same precautions as anyone else IF exiting first (scan for planes). Are you actively scanning for airplanes during freefall? Lol. classic example of a dorkzoner. Arguing about insignificant events that are mainly out of your control, and treating it like it's the #1 danger we face and can control. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pash 0 #42 December 10, 2009 Quoteclassic example of a dorkzoner. Arguing about insignificant events that are mainly out of your control, and treating it like it's the #1 danger we face and can control. What is the number 1 danger in skydiving? How many dangers do you consider? Do you address dangers in terms of the probability that they happen, or the consequences of them happening? Do you catergorize striking an object in freefall by it's type, i.e. "striking a plane = danger #100" but "striking a skydiver tracking in the opposite direction = danger #95, or maybe #2.."? Is it valid to just lump mid-air collisions with anything under a category of shit to avoid? Should someone stop considering dangers that years of experience have taught them to consider simply because someone called them a dorkzoner? Maybe what he was commenting on was your attitude. Maybe not. Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #43 December 10, 2009 Well Dingle Berry, I may be a moron, a dorkzoner (since you are posting here I guess that makes you one) and several other names I have been called. But I have survived 30 years in a sport that has a habit of putting chest beating, loud mouth beginners in a body bag. Like the last poster said, it’s your attitude that will get you killed. I give you 7 years. Now you stay safe and don’t forget to pull.Sparky My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mcordell 2 #44 December 10, 2009 Quote What is the number 1 danger in skydiving? The ground? www.facebook.com/FlintHillsRigging Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deadwood 0 #45 December 11, 2009 In 40 years I’ve had two near freefall/airplane collisions (that I know about). Lets also not forget the commuter and the jump plane that collided over Colorado many years ago. Don’t wait until you open the door to scan for traffic.He who hesitates shall inherit the earth. Deadwood Skydive New Mexico Motorcycle Club, Touring Division Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jumpwally 0 #46 December 11, 2009 " near miss " is the most idiotic term known to man,,,, smile, be nice, enjoy life FB # - 1083 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ion01 2 #47 December 11, 2009 Quote " near miss " is the most idiotic term known to man,,,, +1 If you nearly missed something that means you didn't miss it which means you hit it! The term should be a near hit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pash 0 #48 December 11, 2009 Quote" near miss " is the most idiotic term known to man It reminds me of that Zack Galifinakius joke about how things could be taken two ways, depending on how you said it... "she had a crack baby." Could "near miss" just be describing the proximity of the non-collision? Wikipedia thinks so http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_miss_(safety) Jason Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kuai43 7 #49 December 11, 2009 QuoteQuote" near miss " is the most idiotic term known to man It reminds me of that Zack Galifinakius joke about how things could be taken two ways, depending on how you said it... "she had a crack baby." Could "near miss" just be describing the proximity of the non-collision? Wikipedia thinks so http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_miss_(safety) Jason Agreed - after all, I did just 'miss' colliding with an airliner in Manchuria. @ Jumpwally - No matter whether you agree or not, good luck on educating people not to use it... it's a done deal. Since you seem to like things that bug you, you may as well start on the signs in the market: "Ten items or less"Every fight is a food fight if you're a cannibal Goodness is something to be chosen. When a man cannot choose, he ceases to be a man. - Anthony Burgess Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #50 December 14, 2009 I've been pretty close to a glider myself (glider was off radio and taking a nice leisurely ride through the middle of our landing area. I had to turn under canopy to get out of the way of the glider. I felt the wake of the glider as it passed. I also have a friend who has video (its somewhere here on DZ.com in old threads) of him nearly being hit by a slurry bomber during some nearby forest fires. The video was almost identical to the originals poster's. He didn't see it coming though, it came from behind where he was facing. He fell between the wing and the horizontal stabilizer. Close call. If these encounters happen at the bottom end of freefall, I agree, there is little we can do to prevent them. That doesn't mean it isn't a significant risk to us as jumpers. I also think that the fact that there have been so many near-death experiences like these goes to show that it IS a risk. 50 feet closer and this person would be dead. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
