Psychonaut 0 #51 December 14, 2009 Quote Almost impossible, but skydiving can kill you It's a little more realistic than "almost impossible" to get killed skydiving. So I'm thinking that you are targeting the glider incident with the "almost impossible."Stay high pull low Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crustySCSA69 0 #52 December 15, 2009 QuoteId venture one in a billion chance. Its a pretty big sky. about 79 at z-hills ... 737 goes under dc-3 (actually c-47, but who knows the difference anymore) on jump run with 40 people ... about 100ft separation ... yup, that sky is REAL big .... 1/2 second difference and you might not be jumping today... not sure the fall-out from 40 dead jumpers and a 737 full of people but i'm betting huge ... i was spotting in door (huge old 140 tango door, you could walk thru it standing up, not teensy otter door) and saw (no glasses on, kinda blurry) what I thought was a dc-3 ... out in front, coming our way, way low... then it got bigger ... then a whole lot bigger and I realized what it was .. had time to point and go 'duh .. duh' and flexed knees .. I was leaving, screw everyone else (not proud of that, but what can ya do?..we were all about to die) Ron (sorry, can't remember last name, think Mark Borghurst was co-pilot, he was mechanic at the time) threw 40 Tango into left turn ... 90 degrees ... i am glued to floor in door ... no hands on anything, just feet on floor and stretched out face down in door and can't move due to G's, and the 737 goes under us ... maybe a 100 ft amtbe 150ft below .. I am standing up but flat out horizontal looking down ... i could have recognized my mom if she had her face scrunched up to a window in the 737 ... I watched every window go by... had Ron not turned and glued me to the floor, i'd a been outta there and right in front of it ... on ground ... 40Tango lands and I hover by office ..., Ron leaves plane with props turning (co-pilot can shut down) RUNS into office and gets on phone ... Tampa approach - 'no, we passed it off to Miami control ( Ron was talking on radio to Tampa approach until 7,500... then switched to Miami control) Miami control - 'no, they didn't give it to us' (Ron had, as usual, advised Miami control of climb to 12,000 and announced jump run to them) ... obviously, 737 crew had heads down and saw nothing at all yup, big old sky... no need to worry about what else is out there, everyone is very competent and taking care of your sorry ass ............ moron Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #53 December 15, 2009 QuoteI also think that the fact that there have been so many near-death experiences like these How would you define "so many"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #54 December 15, 2009 QuoteQuoteId venture one in a billion chance. Its a pretty big sky. about 79 at z-hills ... 737 goes under dc-3 (actually c-47, but who knows the difference anymore) on jump run with 40 people ... about 100ft separation ... yup, that sky is REAL big .... 1/2 second difference and you might not be jumping today... not sure the fall-out from 40 dead jumpers and a 737 full of people but i'm betting huge ... i was spotting in door (huge old 140 tango door, you could walk thru it standing up, not teensy otter door) and saw (no glasses on, kinda blurry) what I thought was a dc-3 ... out in front, coming our way, way low... then it got bigger ... then a whole lot bigger and I realized what it was .. had time to point and go 'duh .. duh' and flexed knees .. I was leaving, screw everyone else (not proud of that, but what can ya do?..we were all about to die) Ron (sorry, can't remember last name, think Mark Borghurst was co-pilot, he was mechanic at the time) threw 40 Tango into left turn ... 90 degrees ... i am glued to floor in door ... no hands on anything, just feet on floor and stretched out face down in door and can't move due to G's, and the 737 goes under us ... maybe a 100 ft amtbe 150ft below .. I am standing up but flat out horizontal looking down ... i could have recognized my mom if she had her face scrunched up to a window in the 737 ... I watched every window go by... had Ron not turned and glued me to the floor, i'd a been outta there and right in front of it ... on ground ... 40Tango lands and I hover by office ..., Ron leaves plane with props turning (co-pilot can shut down) RUNS into office and gets on phone ... Tampa approach - 'no, we passed it off to Miami control ( Ron was talking on radio to Tampa approach until 7,500... then switched to Miami control) Miami control - 'no, they didn't give it to us' (Ron had, as usual, advised Miami control of climb to 12,000 and announced jump run to them) ... obviously, 737 crew had heads down and saw nothing at all yup, big old sky... no need to worry about what else is out there, everyone is very competent and taking care of your sorry ass ............ moron One occurrence for you from 1979? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #55 December 15, 2009 Quote Quote I also think that the fact that there have been so many near-death experiences like these How would you define "so many"? Clearly we don't have exact numbers here. I'm sure many of these near-misses were never reported to the USPA for incident reports. We are hearing reports from a number people here on this forum and that doesn't represent the general skydiving population over the years. I don't have a set definition of "so many." What are you, a scientist? Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #56 December 15, 2009 Quote Quote Quote I also think that the fact that there have been so many near-death experiences like these How would you define "so many"? Clearly we don't have exact numbers here. I'm sure many of these near-misses were never reported to the USPA for incident reports. We are hearing reports from a number people here on this forum and that doesn't represent the general skydiving population over the years. I don't have a set definition of "so many." What are you, a scientist? No scientist but since you claim it as a fact, then I would have thought you would have something to back up your claim. Quote I also think that the fact that there have been so many near-death experiences like these Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #57 December 15, 2009 There was a jumper in the 70's who hit a plane. He survived with a few injuries. I think he had a couple of broken bones. He went through the roof of the plane he hit, and ended up inside. He actually landed with that plane. I read the newspaper article on that, but don't know many other facts. In about 1970 our jump plane collided with another aircraft. Everyone on both planes was killed but one skydiver named Jim Ledbettor. he was able to steer his parachute and make a safe landing. He didn't recall pulling his rip cord. Another girl had a good canopy but half of her head was gone. The impact openned her chute. A year or so later, Jim had a double malfunction, but survived. His reserve was full of big holes. His wife talked him out of jumping for a while. Later Jim was killed in a plane crash, flying in bad weather. Yep, this sport isn't always safe. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazydiver 0 #58 December 16, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote I also think that the fact that there have been so many near-death experiences like these How would you define "so many"? Clearly we don't have exact numbers here. I'm sure many of these near-misses were never reported to the USPA for incident reports. We are hearing reports from a number people here on this forum and that doesn't represent the general skydiving population over the years. I don't have a set definition of "so many." What are you, a scientist? No scientist but since you claim it as a fact, then I would have thought you would have something to back up your claim. Quote I also think that the fact that there have been so many near-death experiences like these Anything can be fact with a loose definition of the constraints. e.g. It is a fact that there are a lot of car crashes each year where the driver hit a bird and swerved off the road. I'm sure it's a fact (I just heard a story about that), but the definition of "a lot" is relative to each person's own experience. Anyway...way off topic. Back to the point of the thread. Cheers, Travis Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
champu 1 #59 December 16, 2009 At Elsinore we have a glider port on the airfield with us. As it happens, they're just as interested in us not running into them as we are. They stay west of the airport over the Ortegas and really only come over by the airport to land, at which point they're below freefall altitudes. I scan around for inbound planes surrounding the dropzone between door and green when I'm in the first group out because, hey who knows... and it gives me something to do while I'm waiting. It is kinda funny, however, when someone in the first group starts freaking out when there's a sail plane three and a half miles west of the dropzone flying around in circles. (jumprun is typically about 320deg, so this is the first place people look when they open the door.) /edited to add: It's not reason enough to write off looking around altogether, but in surfbum's defense: If you're the last person out on jumprun and an MD-80 going 250 knots at 8000 feet is going to hit you, do you really think someone in the first group is going to see it 7 miles away? Note that this situation constitutes both "close calls" (a couple thousand feet of horizontal separation) I'm aware of since I've been jumping at Elsinore. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crustySCSA69 0 #60 December 16, 2009 QuoteQuoteQuoteId venture one in a billion chance. Its a pretty big sky. about 79 at z-hills ... 737 goes under dc-3 ........ removed for environmental reasons... conserve pixels !!! ...... One occurrence for you from 1979? yep ... 1 in 79 ... course with 42 (counting pilots) on 40 tango and approx 110 (guess here) on 737 .. had we been 150 ft closer.... that would have been 162 dead .... that would average 5.58 per year up to current ... of course jumping would be different because i'm sure they would have slapped a 100 mi buffer out from every commercial airport ... bye bye Perris, Elsinore, Z-hills, Deland and Eloy and probably just about any drop zone of any size whatsoever.... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
timmyfitz 0 #61 December 17, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Id venture one in a billion chance. Its a pretty big sky. about 79 at z-hills ... 737 goes under dc-3 ........ removed for environmental reasons... conserve pixels !!! ...... One occurrence for you from 1979? yep ... 1 in 79 ... course with 42 (counting pilots) on 40 tango and approx 110 (guess here) on 737 .. had we been 150 ft closer.... that would have been 162 dead .... that would average 5.58 per year up to current ... of course jumping would be different because i'm sure they would have slapped a 100 mi buffer out from every commercial airport ... bye bye Perris, Elsinore, Z-hills, Deland and Eloy and probably just about any drop zone of any size whatsoever.... Sorry, I guess you missed my point. You personally only having one incident in 30 years would not make me believe (in your case) that it is a major problem. Also 42+110=152. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #62 December 17, 2009 Quote Also 42+110=152. He was allowing for those on the ground.SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crustySCSA69 0 #63 December 19, 2009 Quote Quote Also 42+110=152. He was allowing for those on the ground.Sparky right ... 8 on the ground (737 debris hits 7-11) and the 2 suicides by the Tampa/Miami controllers ... = 162 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crustySCSA69 0 #64 December 21, 2009 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Id venture one in a billion chance. Its a pretty big sky. about 79 at z-hills ... 737 goes under dc-3 ........ removed for environmental reasons... conserve pixels !!! ...... One occurrence for you from 1979? yep ... 1 in 79 ... course with 42 (counting pilots) on 40 tango and approx 110 (guess here) on 737 .. had we been 150 ft closer.... that would have been 162 dead .... that would average 5.58 per year up to current ... of course jumping would be different because i'm sure they would have slapped a 100 mi buffer out from every commercial airport ... bye bye Perris, Elsinore, Z-hills, Deland and Eloy and probably just about any drop zone of any size whatsoever.... Sorry, I guess you missed my point. You personally only having one incident in 30 years would not make me believe (in your case) that it is a major problem. Also 42+110=152. sorry.... you missed my point(s)... A. it will take one MAJOR incident to change skydiving forever... B. it will take 1 minor incident to change YOUR life forever (forever being the next 3 to 90 seconds, depending) ... so if someone sees something (and they dam well better be looking as soon as the door goes up) ... then a go-around is totally justified (and this from someone who asked for a go-around ONCE in approx 1000 spots, pre GPS) .. go arounds are cheap.... collisions aren't ... the whole point was a reply to things like this : "Id venture one in a billion chance. Its a pretty big sky. " and "I'd venture there have been at least a billion jumps in history. How many jumpers have ever impacted a lower flying plane? " and "Dude, a lot of people on here are going to inflate the significance of events or risk because they are dorkzoners (internet skygods). I have never even come close to this type of situation and neither has anyone I know." (if you ever do... hope you don't die either) and "Exactly, so jump f$%k out and PRAY that you don't get struck by a plane. That's what I'm thinking every jump. " and "Don't forget, we're talking about near misses, and indirectly referring to people getting hit because why else would we care about near misses? And my original response was refering to that type of situation being a problem. It's not. Jut skim through the fatality lists... " and "ok...so that's 2 skydivers total, right? And what year did this happen? It's significant when people die, but come on man!!!! seriously? " and "However, I have seen far too many go-arounds on jump because someone saw an airplane directly below. A practice that is completely ridiculous. " if you look down, see something, and go around ... you have totally controlled the situation .... chance of collision = 0%.... if you ignore it (it'll be gone when we get there, or DON'T even look) you now have a finite probability of collision ... might be small... but IT IS NOT 0% if people stop looking, or start ignoring ... there will be a catastrophic collision ... the only question is when ?? for the sake of all the quoted people here... hope it doesn't happen on their watch... and they are not branded as the careless douches that cripple skydiving forever ... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #65 January 8, 2010 QuoteQuoteIts a pretty big sky. No, it's not. yes, it is. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surfbum5412 0 #66 January 8, 2010 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Id venture one in a billion chance. Its a pretty big sky. about 79 at z-hills ... 737 goes under dc-3 ........ removed for environmental reasons... conserve pixels !!! ...... One occurrence for you from 1979? yep ... 1 in 79 ... course with 42 (counting pilots) on 40 tango and approx 110 (guess here) on 737 .. had we been 150 ft closer.... that would have been 162 dead .... that would average 5.58 per year up to current ... of course jumping would be different because i'm sure they would have slapped a 100 mi buffer out from every commercial airport ... bye bye Perris, Elsinore, Z-hills, Deland and Eloy and probably just about any drop zone of any size whatsoever.... Sorry, I guess you missed my point. You personally only having one incident in 30 years would not make me believe (in your case) that it is a major problem. Also 42+110=152. sorry.... you missed my point(s)... A. it will take one MAJOR incident to change skydiving forever... B. it will take 1 minor incident to change YOUR life forever (forever being the next 3 to 90 seconds, depending) ... so if someone sees something (and they dam well better be looking as soon as the door goes up) ... then a go-around is totally justified (and this from someone who asked for a go-around ONCE in approx 1000 spots, pre GPS) .. go arounds are cheap.... collisions aren't ... the whole point was a reply to things like this : "Id venture one in a billion chance. Its a pretty big sky. " and "I'd venture there have been at least a billion jumps in history. How many jumpers have ever impacted a lower flying plane? " and "Dude, a lot of people on here are going to inflate the significance of events or risk because they are dorkzoners (internet skygods). I have never even come close to this type of situation and neither has anyone I know." (if you ever do... hope you don't die either) and "Exactly, so jump f$%k out and PRAY that you don't get struck by a plane. That's what I'm thinking every jump. " and "Don't forget, we're talking about near misses, and indirectly referring to people getting hit because why else would we care about near misses? And my original response was refering to that type of situation being a problem. It's not. Jut skim through the fatality lists... " and "ok...so that's 2 skydivers total, right? And what year did this happen? It's significant when people die, but come on man!!!! seriously? " and "However, I have seen far too many go-arounds on jump because someone saw an airplane directly below. A practice that is completely ridiculous. " if you look down, see something, and go around ... you have totally controlled the situation .... chance of collision = 0%.... if you ignore it (it'll be gone when we get there, or DON'T even look) you now have a finite probability of collision ... might be small... but IT IS NOT 0% if people stop looking, or start ignoring ... there will be a catastrophic collision ... the only question is when ?? for the sake of all the quoted people here... hope it doesn't happen on their watch... and they are not branded as the careless douches that cripple skydiving forever ... ummm...no shit. i never said first person shouldn't spot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
feuergnom 28 #67 January 8, 2010 I'm putting you in the "GO GO GO"-group of jumpers who get their panties wet when the green light comes on. looser The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle dudeist skydiver # 666 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
