finding suprises during a repack

[yoink 321]

To non-riggers, under the reserve flaps is a bit of a mystery and I think we rely on our riggers to tell us the truth about what's going on in there.
I'd be much more angry to find out that my rigger was arbitrarily deciding 'there are things I don't need to know' rather than saying 'hey fella, I found a tissue in your reserve - It's no big deal, but I figured you'd want to know anyway.'

[RogerRamjet 0]

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did this situation depend on what was inside the rig, packing wieght vs kleenex? No in my mind there is little diffrence.

I'm not sure I follow this line of reasoning. Let's say the reserve has to be used and also say that neither item interferes with the deployment. In the case of the Kleenex, it just flutters away. However, the packing weight is still descending at 176 ft/sec, what if it strikes the jumper?

Either item wedged into a slider grommet hole could present issues.....

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[RogerRamjet 0]

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I had a guy bring me a rig for a repack and inside I found a used kleenex... what to do what to do?
I am sure nothing was unsafe or so i would think, but should I just laugh it off, contact the last rigger myself or let the owner of the rig do so.
My concern is, if this could have slipped into the rig what enviroment is the last rigger packing in?
I personally vac up the area I rig in before each reapck that I do and I have the benifit of having an area that is just for rigging and nothing else happens in the part of my basement.
Other riggers comments or suggestions?
Joe

Found a packing weight in the tail of a swift reserve once, had the riggers name on it. I walked outside (at Perris) the loft and gave it back to him. He was to say the least somwhat embarresed about that. Well known and well respected (still is) point of it all? It can happen to ANYONE. Talk to him privatly about it.


Mick.

I agree. Informing the owner is a touchy situation. You never know how someone might react. Here is a situation I had at the Thanksgiving meet in 1976 in Z-Hills. A young lady from Michigan came into the loft and asked for a repack of her SST rig (for those that don't know what that is, a piggy back that had a pop-top style reserve). After she left the loft, I opened the reserve with the fish scale as usual. Pull force was good. When the pilot chute shot up and then fell next to the rig, I noticed 4 temporary pins where still in place complete with red flags. The packing card revealed that the rigger was attending the meet. I brought the center's owner, Jeff Searles and the ASO, Jim Hooper into the loft and we discussed the situation. Jeff and Jim decided that informing the jumper might be traumatic so just had the rigger come in to see the rig. It is the first time I have ever seen someone literally turn white. He said he had been having nightmares about where those pins were and had been attempting to contact all those he had packed for. In those days, there were no cell phones, email, etc., so you had to find someone’s home phone number or address to contact them which might not even be possible.

I asked him how this was even possible if he was counting his tools before beginning and counting them upon completion (the way Jeff Searles taught me)? He said he was never taught anything about that. I believe he left Z-Hills with a new set of rules for his repacks....

Did Jeff and Jim make the right decision? I don't know how to answer that, but I was sure glad they made it and not me. I do not know if they filed a report with the FAA or not...

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Roger "Ramjet" Clark
FB# 271, SCR 3245, SCS 1519

[jdthomas 0]

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did this situation depend on what was inside the rig, packing wieght vs kleenex? No in my mind there is little diffrence.

I'm not sure I follow this line of reasoning. reply]

My thought is that there was simply something foriegn left in the pack job. no matter what it is, kleenex of packing wieght it is not something that is supposed to be in there. And to top it all off this cam from the manufactures loft not some guys basement!
Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

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[skyblu3 0]

I bought a rig from a rigger in the U.S. it was his personal rig. He must have repacked this rig about 10 times over about 3 years before selling it to me. He gave it to me with a fresh repack and I jumped it for about 4 months then I had it repacked and it was handed back to me with nothing said. I continued to jump it for another 120 days. I then had it repacked again, I was present this time for the repack. The rigger, a different rigger than had packed it previously, couldn't believe what he was seeing when he laid the canopy out. The reserve was installed incorectly. There were at least two lines over lapping each other.
The question remains, how did this happen? Did the previous owner install the reserve incorectly when the gear was new and then repacked it at least 10 times without ever noticing? I think probably, since it was repacked again while I owned the rig and nobody noticed anything.
It's obvious that a lot of riggers are not hanging reserves for inspection because they would have caught this problem right away. Although a simple line contiuity check would have caught this mistake.

I put at least 100 jumps on this gear with an incorectly installed reserve. It really pisses me off to think what might have happened if I had to use my reserve.

[mark 107]

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... what might have happened if I had to use my reserve.

Nothing out of the ordinary if the only problem was lines out of order on the links. Although, like you, I'd rather use a more compulsive, detail-oriented rigger.

Mark

[skyblu3 0]

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... what might have happened if I had to use my reserve.

Nothing out of the ordinary if the only problem was lines out of order on the links. Although, like you, I'd rather use a more compulsive, detail-oriented rigger.

Mark

Yes that was what it was, lines out of order on the links. Do you think the canopy would have flown fine all the same??

[TCMRigging 0]

I have seen alot of mains fly just fine with lines out of order on the links. Having them out of order on a reserve should not cause a problem either. It just looks bad on the riggers who did not catch it. It would be easy to miss if you do not check each line and assume the previous rigger did their job correctly.

Chris

[rehmwa 2]

Actually, we have a GREAT team rigger.

I believe he'd tell us anything unusual he finds and we'd decided what to do about it because it's our gear and our protection. I don't think he'd 'decide for us' that we 'don't need to know'.

Nice thing about this guy is he'd also give us advice on what he found means to us so we wouldn't go off the handle unecessarily to whoever did the original service.

Because of this attitude and professionalism, I'll always take his advice very seriously.

(same goes for our other rigger - it helps to use friends that you respect and trust)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[riggerrob 643]

... assume the previous rigger did their job correctly.

Chris

[TCMRigging 0]

Thats right you never assume the other rigger did it right (even yourself), hell never assume that the person who owns it did not open the rig and mess with it either. If someone is slick enough they can move the reserve ripcord cable around to the side enough to free the seal without breaking it, open the reserve and reclose it without breaking the seal. I did not believe it could be done until I saw someone open a rig without breaking the seal. Even if a seal is put on tight this can still be done.

Chris

[mjosparky 4]

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I have seen alot of mains fly just fine with lines out of order on the links. Having them out of order on a reserve should not cause a problem either. It just looks bad on the riggers who did not catch it. It would be easy to miss if you do not check each line and assume the previous rigger did their job correctly.

Chris

Lines in the right order is one reason I hang every reserve I work on. Hanging the canopy makes this a quick and simple job plus so many other things can be checked with the canopy hanging.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[teason 0]

I hang the canopy for the same reason but it does also make inspecting in the cells way easier.

I bought c-clamps (with rubber ends) so that I can hang a canopy almost anywhere. I like to put the rig on my back so that I can look up the lines to check continuity, whether it's a new customer or my own gear that I've packed dozens of times. It just makes sense and it only takes a second.

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[mjosparky 4]

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I hang the canopy for the same reason but it does also make inspecting in the cells way easier.

I bought c-clamps (with rubber ends) so that I can hang a canopy almost anywhere. I like to put the rig on my back so that I can look up the lines to check continuity, whether it's a new customer or my own gear that I've packed dozens of times. It just makes sense and it only takes a second.

I think I might do it because it is a carry over from the old days when the FAA lic. lofts. At that time you were supposed to hang and air a canopy for 24 hours if I remember right.

And you are right, it just makes so many things easier to see and check.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mdrejhon 8]

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i once found a baggie of pot in a repack.

Imagine travelling with that rig and getting caught by security. Ouch!

[HeatherB 0]

I'm not a rigger, but I popped a reserve once and found a toggle unattached to the brake line. It just slipped off in my hand.

Not so good.

Edit to add: the owner of the rig was his own rigger

[caspar 0]

ive heard people say on this forum that there are people out there that are scared of using their reserve incase that also mals. as in, they fight with their main waaay too long hoping to sort it out.
just an obversation and i know most likely wrong but dont you guys think this thread is going to make more problems rather than help the average skydiver/student read this? i would of thought its going to scare a lot of people.

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[brabzzz 0]

Yeah my take on the matter is that up until a certain point, blindly carrying out reserve drills is the only and the best approach.

After that point has come and gone (maybe it never does for some - better/worse?), if there's time, i'd like to think i'd stop for a second and think about what's happening/not happening. If i find myself under a screwed canopy, then i hope i'd spend every second down to 1500ft trying to deal with it. I've got nothing to lose by doing that, and I'll land closer to my main if i need to chop + might get a cool video from the ground.

However much I trust the rigger that packed my reserve, it is still a 100% unknown. It's behind me, under all the flaps and i didn't put it in there and know nothing about it...

Too much information isn't a bad thing. Just make sure you have a plan and STICK to it.

Disclaimer - I've don't have thousands of jumps/decades in the sport. I've not had a mal yet. When i do have that experience, maybe my opionion will change.

---------------------------------------
Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com

[mjosparky 4]

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If i find myself under a screwed canopy, then i hope i'd spend every second down to 1500ft trying to deal with it. I've got nothing to lose by doing that, and I'll land closer to my main if i need to chop + might get a cool video from the ground.

The only thing you have to lose is your life. Trying to be a rigger in freefall is for fools. If you can't land it, chop it.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[NWFlyer 2]

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dont you guys think this thread is going to make more problems rather than help the average skydiver/student read this?

What I hope it will do is remind skydivers of a few things:

1) You are responsible for your main. Maintain it and pack it like you understand that, not like you have a "Plan B."

2) You are responsible for your body position on deployment. Learn as much as you can about how that can impact the likelihood of a malfunction or other problems on opening (Scott Miller wrote a great article in Skydiving magazine a few months ago about that topic... it's worth digging up a copy and reading it).

3) Reserves are packed by human beings. Some are more human than others. Even the best screw up and the worst probably screw up even more. Find one you trust.

All that said ...

4) If you can't stack the deck in your favor to trust your gear, this sport probably isn't for you.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[riggerrob 643]

Disclaimer - I've don't have thousands of jumps/decades in the sport. I've not had a mal yet. When i do have that experience, maybe my opinion will change.

[caspar 0]

im fine with reading all this, i was mainly thinking about people about to do aff or doing it reading this thread.

saying that, finding a bag of pot in a reserve pack job is pretty unerving. there's being human and there's being...(insert clever word here)

"When I read about the evils of drinking, I gave up reading."

[NWFlyer 2]

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saying that, finding a bag of pot in a reserve pack job is pretty unerving. there's being human and there's being...(insert clever word here)

Like I said, find one you trust.

[riggermick 7]

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ive heard people say on this forum that there are people out there that are scared of using their reserve incase that also mals. as in, they fight with their main waaay too long hoping to sort it out.
just an obversation and i know most likely wrong but dont you guys think this thread is going to make more problems rather than help the average skydiver/student read this? i would of thought its going to scare a lot of people.

Well this aguement has been around as long as skydiving has, the fact of the matter is that there is not a signifacnt body count to be blamed on poor rigging. Parachutes do function correctly even when rigging is sub-standard, I'm not endorsing poor rigging practice but look at it in real terms, poor rigging has not significantly contributed to jumper death tolls over the years.


Manufacturers have for many years now have sought ways to mitigate bozo riggers from actually killing or maiming people and despite the best efforts of the bozo contingent the mortality rate is astoundingly low!!!


The best recipe to overcome "gear fear" is to learn more about what it is you have on your back and how it works, right down to the exact sequence of events that takes place when you pull the handle. Remember the "mysterious box" above your main is not magic, it's simply another parachute that has many built in features to handle things that you would never be concerned about deploying your main.


Talk to riggers and manufacturers about how things work right down to the load path taken during an opening, you'll be supprised to find out how much you don't know! Remember education could save your life one day, it saved mine!!!

Mick.

[mjosparky 4]

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Manufacturers have for many years now have sought ways to mitigate bozo riggers from actually killing or maiming people and despite the best efforts of the bozo contingent the mortality rate is astoundingly low!!!

Mick,

You must always remember Booth's law #2.

"The safer skydiving gear becomes, the more chances skydivers will take, in order to keep the fatality rate constant."

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals