Snowjumper 0 #1 May 31, 2006 My Dad is a long time demo jumper. He jumps Falcon 215 canopies and sometimes has hard landings on them. I think that he would benifit by using a newer canopy like a Sabre 2 or something that will give him a better flare, but his main concern is that he thinks you can not use Zero P canopies when he is jumping very large flags at Demos. Is he right about this or is this just old fashioned thinking?We who are, not like Others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AggieDave 6 #2 May 31, 2006 If he's not comfortable with it, why not go with a modern hybrid? Something like a Navigator or a Sihloette (sp?). Both are great canopies (and fairly similar canopies). The Sihloette is "sportier" then the Navigator, though. You know, last time I saw the GK's demo team a large majority of them were jumping Nav's for their demo rigs.--"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #4 May 31, 2006 If he wants to jump large flags, he probably needs a 215 square foot ZP canopy. Consider that the guys who jump the biggest flags jump tandem rigs and all modern tandem rigs contain ZP mains. The difference in flight characteristics - between ZP and hybrid canopies - is insignificant. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Martini 0 #5 May 31, 2006 Can ZP canopies be used to jump large flags?Quote Yes.Sometimes you eat the bear.............. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #6 May 31, 2006 This is a picture of Eric Bickle flying large flag under a Sabre 2. If I remember correctly, the flag was about 10 X 20. He landed just fine, in essentially no wind. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base935 0 #7 May 31, 2006 This is ZP... www.gravitypimps.com/IMG_4034.jpg www.coloradoskysports.comGravity Research Institute Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ChrisL 2 #8 May 31, 2006 QuoteThis is ZP... www.gravitypimps.com/IMG_4034.jpg Yeah, but thats a teeny weenie little flag. I'd call that more of a pennant __ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #9 May 31, 2006 Aerodynamically, there is little difference between new F-111 fabric and ZP fabric. That is why reserves are still made of F-111 fabric. It is not until they have 60 or 70 jumps that F-111 canopies start to become more porous, land harder, etc. His poor landings may simply be the result of too many jumps on a porous old Falcon. F-111 main canopy technology has not progressed since ZP fabric was introduced in the late 1980s. Now ZP canopies are available in a bewildering array of planforms, airfoil sections, line trims, wing loadings, etc., not all of which are safe for tight demos. Your dad is correct in thinking that he would be foolish to jump a flag with a tiny ZP canopy. On the other hand, a large, docile ZP canopy would give him better landings with large flags. Tell him to start looking at Sabre 2-215, Silhouette 215, Pilot 215, Hornet 215, Safire 215, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #10 May 31, 2006 How big is "Very large flags"? This flag is 600 sq. ft. and the canopy is F-111. But it is 245 sq. ft.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base935 0 #11 May 31, 2006 The one that is at Colorado Skysports is over 2,100 sqft.Gravity Research Institute Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Snowjumper 0 #12 June 1, 2006 Thanks guys, His canopies are definitely worn out from many jumps and heavy wing loadings. That is why I have been trying to get him to switch to ZP because I believe they would be more consistent over a longer period of time than new f-111 canopies would. My dad has been jumping for over 35 years and still does a lot of demo jumps. I think he is worried about changing things this late in the game, but hopefully the pictures and posts will help me (and other concerned friends) to convince him he would be better off using newer similar sized, more modern parachutes. We who are, not like Others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #13 June 1, 2006 No reason why not. Replaced a falcon with a Fusion for the flag rig at one DZ a while back. Worked great.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #14 June 1, 2006 QuoteThe one that is at Colorado Skysports is over 2,100 sqft. What type of material is it made of and what canopy do people use to jump it. It sounds like a good candidate for a tandem rig. Usually bigger is better, it gives you more options.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 2,991 #15 June 1, 2006 There's not much difference between new F111 and ZP fabric. What he is referring to is that large flags often require large canopies; their drag is such that smaller canopies will not fly properly with the added drag. We used a tandem system to jump a 1000 sq ft flag a while back, and the larger canopies worked better than the newer ZP canopies for that purpose. But that's because the older canopies were larger, not because they were F111. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites coloradosky 0 #16 June 2, 2006 The Colorado Skysports flag that Base935 is referring to is made of F111 type fabric, 2150 sq. ft. and weighs about 80 lbs (including weight and bag). We try to keep the total system wingloading in the 1.2 to 1.3 range. We used a tandem rig at first but found we had very little penetration and the tail of the flag didn't fly straight out that well. The girl in the linked picture from BASE935's post is using a Spectre 190. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Snowjumper 0 #17 June 2, 2006 Thanks for the flag specifications. It helped me get the point across. We who are, not like Others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites freeflysteve 0 #18 June 2, 2006 Richard over at Empuria jumps with very large flags and he uses a tandem rig and zp canopy i believe.Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #19 June 3, 2006 QuoteHow big is "Very large flags"? This flag is 600 sq. ft. and the canopy is F-111. But it is 245 sq. ft. *** No Sparky...he said "VERY LARGE FLAG!" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 June 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteHow big is "Very large flags"? This flag is 600 sq. ft. and the canopy is F-111. But it is 245 sq. ft. *** No Sparky...he said "VERY LARGE FLAG!" I am sorry, how about this? 2200 sq. ft. is the largest I have.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites airtwardo 7 #21 June 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteHow big is "Very large flags"? This flag is 600 sq. ft. and the canopy is F-111. But it is 245 sq. ft. *** No Sparky...he said "VERY LARGE FLAG!" I am sorry, how about this? 2200 sq. ft. is the largest I have. *** MINE'S BIGGER! But you already KNEW that...he he! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #22 June 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHow big is "Very large flags"? This flag is 600 sq. ft. and the canopy is F-111. But it is 245 sq. ft. *** No Sparky...he said "VERY LARGE FLAG!" I am sorry, how about this? 2200 sq. ft. is the largest I have. *** MINE'S BIGGER! But you already KNEW that...he he! You always were such a show off. 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AndyMan 7 #6 May 31, 2006 This is a picture of Eric Bickle flying large flag under a Sabre 2. If I remember correctly, the flag was about 10 X 20. He landed just fine, in essentially no wind. _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base935 0 #7 May 31, 2006 This is ZP... www.gravitypimps.com/IMG_4034.jpg www.coloradoskysports.comGravity Research Institute Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisL 2 #8 May 31, 2006 QuoteThis is ZP... www.gravitypimps.com/IMG_4034.jpg Yeah, but thats a teeny weenie little flag. I'd call that more of a pennant __ My mighty steed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #9 May 31, 2006 Aerodynamically, there is little difference between new F-111 fabric and ZP fabric. That is why reserves are still made of F-111 fabric. It is not until they have 60 or 70 jumps that F-111 canopies start to become more porous, land harder, etc. His poor landings may simply be the result of too many jumps on a porous old Falcon. F-111 main canopy technology has not progressed since ZP fabric was introduced in the late 1980s. Now ZP canopies are available in a bewildering array of planforms, airfoil sections, line trims, wing loadings, etc., not all of which are safe for tight demos. Your dad is correct in thinking that he would be foolish to jump a flag with a tiny ZP canopy. On the other hand, a large, docile ZP canopy would give him better landings with large flags. Tell him to start looking at Sabre 2-215, Silhouette 215, Pilot 215, Hornet 215, Safire 215, etc. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #10 May 31, 2006 How big is "Very large flags"? This flag is 600 sq. ft. and the canopy is F-111. But it is 245 sq. ft.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base935 0 #11 May 31, 2006 The one that is at Colorado Skysports is over 2,100 sqft.Gravity Research Institute Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowjumper 0 #12 June 1, 2006 Thanks guys, His canopies are definitely worn out from many jumps and heavy wing loadings. That is why I have been trying to get him to switch to ZP because I believe they would be more consistent over a longer period of time than new f-111 canopies would. My dad has been jumping for over 35 years and still does a lot of demo jumps. I think he is worried about changing things this late in the game, but hopefully the pictures and posts will help me (and other concerned friends) to convince him he would be better off using newer similar sized, more modern parachutes. We who are, not like Others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #13 June 1, 2006 No reason why not. Replaced a falcon with a Fusion for the flag rig at one DZ a while back. Worked great.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #14 June 1, 2006 QuoteThe one that is at Colorado Skysports is over 2,100 sqft. What type of material is it made of and what canopy do people use to jump it. It sounds like a good candidate for a tandem rig. Usually bigger is better, it gives you more options.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,991 #15 June 1, 2006 There's not much difference between new F111 and ZP fabric. What he is referring to is that large flags often require large canopies; their drag is such that smaller canopies will not fly properly with the added drag. We used a tandem system to jump a 1000 sq ft flag a while back, and the larger canopies worked better than the newer ZP canopies for that purpose. But that's because the older canopies were larger, not because they were F111. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
coloradosky 0 #16 June 2, 2006 The Colorado Skysports flag that Base935 is referring to is made of F111 type fabric, 2150 sq. ft. and weighs about 80 lbs (including weight and bag). We try to keep the total system wingloading in the 1.2 to 1.3 range. We used a tandem rig at first but found we had very little penetration and the tail of the flag didn't fly straight out that well. The girl in the linked picture from BASE935's post is using a Spectre 190. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Snowjumper 0 #17 June 2, 2006 Thanks for the flag specifications. It helped me get the point across. We who are, not like Others... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflysteve 0 #18 June 2, 2006 Richard over at Empuria jumps with very large flags and he uses a tandem rig and zp canopy i believe.Swooping, huh? I love that stuff ... all the flashing lights and wailing sirens ... it's very exciting! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #19 June 3, 2006 QuoteHow big is "Very large flags"? This flag is 600 sq. ft. and the canopy is F-111. But it is 245 sq. ft. *** No Sparky...he said "VERY LARGE FLAG!" ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #20 June 3, 2006 QuoteQuoteHow big is "Very large flags"? This flag is 600 sq. ft. and the canopy is F-111. But it is 245 sq. ft. *** No Sparky...he said "VERY LARGE FLAG!" I am sorry, how about this? 2200 sq. ft. is the largest I have.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #21 June 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteHow big is "Very large flags"? This flag is 600 sq. ft. and the canopy is F-111. But it is 245 sq. ft. *** No Sparky...he said "VERY LARGE FLAG!" I am sorry, how about this? 2200 sq. ft. is the largest I have. *** MINE'S BIGGER! But you already KNEW that...he he! ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #22 June 4, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteHow big is "Very large flags"? This flag is 600 sq. ft. and the canopy is F-111. But it is 245 sq. ft. *** No Sparky...he said "VERY LARGE FLAG!" I am sorry, how about this? 2200 sq. ft. is the largest I have. *** MINE'S BIGGER! But you already KNEW that...he he! You always were such a show off. My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
