Hooknswoop 19 #1 June 2, 2006 Opened a Voodoo today with the bridle stowed incorrectly and a 7-inch metal wire in the "s" folds of the canopy. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sunshine 2 #2 June 2, 2006 Any idea what the wire is? Just some piece of scrap from the previous rigger's loft? ___________________________________________ meow I get a Mike hug! I get a Mike hug! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #3 June 2, 2006 Quote Any idea what the wire is? Just some piece of scrap from the previous rigger's loft? No idea. It is very thin. Can't imagine where it came from. Also- the card says it has been packed 4 times while the label on the reserve (a PD-R) has only 2 "/"'s on it. The funny part is this is the same rigger that when he opened a friend's rig, he told him it had been packed wrong (by the factory), and then proceded to pack it wrong, without the manual. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #4 June 2, 2006 "Funny" isn't the word I'd use. Which begs a question I don't know the answer to: what are the ongoing certification/education requirements for riggers? Are there any? Or is it "once you have your ticket you're a rigger for life?" What kind of disciplinary options (if any) are available for riggers who show a pattern of misconduct? (Note that I'm not saying this guy deserves any of that, I am not a rigger nor do I know the situation here, just curious in general what can happen to "bad riggers.") Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #5 June 2, 2006 QuoteWhich begs a question I don't know the answer to: what are the ongoing certification/education requirements for riggers? Are there any? None. Quoter is it "once you have your ticket you're a rigger for life?" Unless the FAA revokes your certificate. QuoteWhat kind of disciplinary options (if any) are available for riggers who show a pattern of misconduct? Only the FAA has any authority over riggers. I have only heard of one rigger's certificate being revoked and that was very recently. I try to contact the rigger when I find stuff like this. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #6 June 2, 2006 Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the photo. How is the bridal stowed incorrectly? If I'm understanding the photo correctly, it appears to be packed according to the manufacturer's instructions."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kimblair13 0 #7 June 2, 2006 Because it's going side to side and not up and down? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #8 June 2, 2006 That's what the manufacturer's instructions say to do.... I'm looking at the PDf from R.I. website for the Voodoo container. Edit: From page 55; photo 4-45 looks exactly like the photo in the attachment. "Place freebag into the container and S-fold the bridle on top between the molar shaped canopy ears. (Fig. 4-45)""Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kimblair13 0 #9 June 2, 2006 Ok so probably that it's poking out too far so the top yoke part of the bag isn't completely concealing it? Then on page 56 the yoke is covering the bridle...in Hooks example it's not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #10 June 3, 2006 QuoteIf I'm understanding the photo correctly, it appears to be packed according to the manufacturer's instructions. You are absolutely correct, the bridle was stowed correctly. RI changed how the Voodoo's bridle should be stowed. RI used to require the bridle be stowed from the free-bag grommet to the top flap. The current manual requires it to be stowed sideways. I have a faxed "Voodoo Reserve Packing Supplement" from RI showing the bridle stowed from the grommet to the top flap. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 279 #11 June 3, 2006 Quote the bridle was stowed correctly. RI changed how the Voodoo's bridle should be stowed. It gets confusing keeping track of what manufacturers want. From what I see in manuals I have downloaded: Talon / Telesis ---- V folds (Vector-like) Talon 2 ---------- side to side Talon 3 supplement --- up and down Talon 3 ----------- side to side Voodoo ----------- side to side (And I haven't looked at the Genera, Talon FS, or Telesis 2 manuals yet. They show a Telesis 3 too, but no manual. Oh wait, what's called the Talon FS manual is also called the Talon 3 manual when opened up. RI sure has a lot of names for their rigs...) The Talon 3 supplement was designed to show people the differences between the Talon 3 and the Talon 2, so they could use the old manual with some changes. Here one gets into the rules-lawyering. Without phoning the company, how does one know whether that document still applies? The supplement may not now be on their web site, but if there's nothing that specifically withdraws it, are both ways still legal? The supplement has no date to match it with the Talon 3 manual. (Just rhetorical questions!) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PeteS 0 #12 June 3, 2006 The bridle wouldnt cause any "harm" packed like that. The wire looks like the one from a crack pipe cleaning kit! I'll bet the rigger missing it stayed up all night looking for it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #13 June 3, 2006 QuoteThe wire looks like the one from a crack pipe cleaning kit! How lovely that you know what one looks like! Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MF42 0 #14 June 3, 2006 The wire looks just like safety wire, sometimes called lock wire, used to secure hardware on aircraft. Matt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #15 June 3, 2006 QuoteThe supplement may not now be on their web site, but if there's nothing that specifically withdraws it, are both ways still legal? Exactly. You would think there would be some sort of notification system in place when a manufacturer changes how the reserve should be packed, but there isn't. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #16 June 3, 2006 Quotehe wire looks just like safety wire, sometimes called lock wire, used to secure hardware on aircraft. I am very familar with lockwire. 0.020, 0.032, and 0.040. Also brass break wire. I was an Apache Crewchief. This was none of the above, thinner than 0.020 lockwire. Somewhere around 0.010 or less. I don't think it would have made any difference to the deployment at all. Fortunately it didn't rust while it was in there. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 37 #17 June 4, 2006 As Hook indicated there is no continuing education required of riggers. PIA, through the old Rigger Conference and now through the International Parachute Symposium provides a forum for the exchange of information. For three or four symposiums we have provided continuing education certificates, both from PIA and from the FAA, to riggers who attend a minimum number of rigging or technical presentations. These certificates have no regulatory meaning. While many excellent riggers don't have a chance to come to the symposium, riggers that do come show a desire to continue their education. As previous posts also indicate, it's often difficult to keep up with changes to manuals, and which manual version applies to which rigs. Rigging is not an exact science. As often demonstrated on this forum conscientious riggers can disagree on individual interpretations or techniques. Some believe a molar strap should never be used while others see it as simply a useful tool. (BTW one manufacturer gave them away as a promotional item) Others don't believe that any mechanical aids should be used to close rigs while others use a variety of aids to minimize the sweat factor. None of these opinions are wrong, just different. When items of rigging quality come up the PIA Rigging Committee has a procedure and form that can be used. (Available on the web site) It recommends various levels of response. If an individual rigger doesn't feel comfortable raising an issue with another rigger PIA is willing to do handle the communication. This has been very rarely used but we are more than willing to do this if necessary. The FAA has rarely taken action against riggers. One issue is that once the pack is open the cause or individual responsible for a condition observed can't be proved. Individual discussions between the riggers are usually effective. Many people choose their rigger based on convenience or price. Others choose theirs base on reputation. Do what you comfortable with you and get to know who's packing your rig. I know this is harder at larger DZ's. Luckily my customers are my friends. PIA Rigging Committee ChairmanI'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #18 June 4, 2006 QuoteWhat kind of disciplinary options (if any) are available for riggers who show a pattern of misconduct? Disciplinary options can range from a slap on the wrist to fines to possible criminal action. I think the key word is "pattern". As Terry posted any action against a rigger by the FAA is rare. I am not sure if this is good or bad. I have only seen official action 3 times in 30 years. Attached it the first of what may several steps taken recently against a rigger in the Milwaukee area.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fields 0 #19 June 5, 2006 I don't see how the rigger is at fault for the bridle folding "error". There is no SB listed on the RI site and the manual is showing what is considered an incorrect method. To "be sure-always" does a rigger need to contact the manufacture before each repack and ask if anything has changed? Are some rigger registered with a manufacturer, so they get this type of info faxed to them?"And the sky is blue and righteous in every direction" Survivor Chuck Palahniuk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #20 June 5, 2006 Quote I don't see how the rigger is at fault for the bridle folding "error". That is because he isn't at fault, it was folded correctly. QuoteTo "be sure-always" does a rigger need to contact the manufacture before each repack and ask if anything has changed? Are some rigger registered with a manufacturer, so they get this type of info faxed to them? No, there is a hole in the system. Manufacturers change instructions without any notification. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #21 June 5, 2006 That wire looks like it was used to finger-trap something. I'm basing my opinion on the bend in it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fields 0 #22 June 5, 2006 Thanks for the reply. How did you come to get the fax? It seems often SBs are posted by people not associated with the manfacturer. Like Mike Gruwell recently announced the Argus SB. Jan Meyer posted the one about Strong SB"And the sky is blue and righteous in every direction" Survivor Chuck Palahniuk Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
leapdog 0 #23 June 5, 2006 QuoteQuoteWhich begs a question I don't know the answer to: what are the ongoing certification/education requirements for riggers? Are there any? None. Not true. You must have 20 pack jobs of the type container of the rating in which you seek. in my case back. You have to learn to patch a canopy in spect assemble a reserve to a tso'd harness/container. There are a few other things. then take a written test, if you pass you take an oral quiz then a pratical test. Showing you can perform the work and have the knowledge. Unless you speak of after you get the rating, there is a currecy requirment and if that is not met, then you have to take a practical test again or somthig to that effect. However, that from what I know, isn't really enforcable. Quoter is it "once you have your ticket you're a rigger for life?" Unless the FAA revokes your certificate. Someone can report a rigger to the FAA. The FAA will investigate and if found the public safety is at risk they will suspend the riggers ticket or completely revoke it. QuoteWhat kind of disciplinary options (if any) are available for riggers who show a pattern of misconduct? Only the FAA has any authority over riggers. I have only heard of one rigger's certificate being revoked and that was very recently. See above about reporting. IMO only anohter rigger would know if one is performing badly or not, and since there are different methods of rigging the end result has to be evaluated to determin if a rigger has messed up. Ego's shouyld not get in the way. Also the FAA will investigate incidents if the rigger is found negligent then there could be court charges brought against him/her. I try to contact the rigger when I find stuff like this. Derek Gunnery Sergeant of Marines "I would like it if I were challenged mentally at my job and not feel like I'm mentally challenged." - Co-worker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rigger_john 0 #24 June 5, 2006 Some governing bodies do have disiplinary systems in place. The BPA riggers commitee have a system to disipline wayward riggers._________________________________________ Nullius in Verba Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hooknswoop 19 #25 June 5, 2006 QuoteHow did you come to get the fax? It seems often SBs are posted by people not associated with the manfacturer. The fax is a packing supplement, not an SB. I called RI and requested it because at the time, a Voodoo packikng manual didn't exist. Derek Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
