Scarey malfunction

[jwynne 0]

I'm really glad I'm posting here, and it's not a friend posting about me in incidents. Early bird lift, cold winter morning. I didn't have my heavier gloves with me. Great jump. Pulled main. Left toggle unstowed or fired on opening. Reached for my right toggle. My cold numb hands missed on the 1st try. Got it on the second try, but now I was in a pretty good spin. One yank, toggle stuck. One more harder yank, no good. At this point I actually thought, "I could get it loose if I used 2 hands", then thought, don't be stupid, sounds like a way to die.

Went for cutaway handle, thinking, "You're hands are numb, pull it like you mean it." Grabbed handle, pulled. Lost the handle halfway through the pull. One riser released, one still hung up & spinning. Grabbed a handfull of yellow cable and pulled. Crap left. RSL pulled the reserve as I pulled the handle. Open canopy at 900 feet.

A couple of personal lessons to share. I've fixed a lot of fired toggles on opening. I was probably a little overconfident. I should of given it only one try & moved on. I though adrenaline would override numb hands and I could make them work. Not so. Do I really want to jump when it's that cold? I'll think on that one.

Glad to be here, healthy & in one piece - Janna

[captain1976 0]

Glad you made it. I wear gloves but I know the felling as my face takes a terrible beating when its cold. Hurts for 2 days and itches for a week. Must be the onset of frostbite.

You live more in the few minutes of skydiving than many people live in their lifetime

[shah269 0]

Dumb question, what causes toggles to get stuck?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[millertime24 8]

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Dumb question, what causes toggles to get stuck?

Short answere is line tension. Get Brian Germain's book The Parachute and its Pilot. He goes into great detail about how the faster the wings airspeed the more lift it generates and in turn more line tension you have (which he explains why that is a good thing). After reading that book you will likely look at your parachute in a completely different light.

Muff #5048

[billvon 2,991]

One thing I've learned is that adrenalin will often not fix whatever problem you're having, even if you really, really need it to be fixed.

Glad you're OK, and glad that you had backups that would have helped ensure you were OK even if your hands had been a little more numb.

[Andy9o8 2]

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Dumb question,

No such thing. Keep asking.

[shah269 0]

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Dumb question, what causes toggles to get stuck?

Short answere is line tension. Get Brian Germain's book The Parachute and its Pilot. He goes into great detail about how the faster the wings airspeed the more lift it generates and in turn more line tension you have (which he explains why that is a good thing). After reading that book you will likely look at your parachute in a completely different light.

Yeah I just read that part last week. But I still don't get it.
Is it the increased lift that is causing the toggle to "stick" due to lift or does it get tangled?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

It can get tangled, but in this case (I'm guessing/assuming) that it was the G-load.

Think about how toggles are stowed. The tounge on the toggle goes through the cat's-eye on the steering line.

Now put the canopy into a hard spiral. First, the stowed toggle adds some tension to the steering line from the aerodynamic force (the air is trying to force the tail of the canopy back up). Second the G-load increases the tension on the lines.

The steering line is now so tight that the cat's-eye is clamped around the toggle tounge so tightly that one hand isn't strong enough.

I've had a couple brake fires. I used opposite rear riser to stop the spin and evaluate the situation.
That may or may not have been a valid option in the OP's situation. I don't know.

The important thing is that the OP is OK. Period.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[davelepka 4]

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Yeah I just read that part last week. But I still don't get it.
Is it the increased lift that is causing the toggle to "stick" due to lift or does it get tangled?

Think about the normal situation when you unstow your brakes. Sitting still under your canopy, which is flying slow because the brakes are stowed. Think about the amount of tension on the lines.

Now think about your canopy in a hrad turn. G-loads are building, and the line tension is way up.

Now think about how the toggles are stowed, and imagine all that tension pulling up on the stowed brake. The nose of the toggle would be pinned to the guidering, and the steering line would be under tremendous load, and not likely to easily slip off the nose of the toggle.

Sometimes you can overcome the tension, and just unstow the other toggle. Sometimes you can counter the turn by pulling on the rear riser on the side with the unstowed toggle. This will stop the turn, and lower the line tension, making is easy to unstow the other toggle. Sometimes the steering line or the guidering may be twisted, and the increased tension actually 'locks' the brake in the stowed position.

[buff 0]

Janna, a couple of questions for you since I jump all winter in KS and N. TX.

What type of reserve handle; soft or silver?

How do you grab your handle; two hands, one hand, hook thumbs thru D?

TIA and glad you made it out of the MAL

It's called the Hillbilly Hop N Pop dude.
If you're gonna be stupid, you better be tough.
That's fucked up. Watermelons do not grow on trees! ~Skymama

[shah269 0]

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It can get tangled, but in this case (I'm guessing/assuming) that it was the G-load.

Think about how toggles are stowed. The tounge on the toggle goes through the cat's-eye on the steering line.

Now put the canopy into a hard spiral. First, the stowed toggle adds some tension to the steering line from the aerodynamic force (the air is trying to force the tail of the canopy back up). Second the G-load increases the tension on the lines.

The steering line is now so tight that the cat's-eye is clamped around the toggle tounge so tightly that one hand isn't strong enough.

I've had a couple brake fires. I used opposite rear riser to stop the spin and evaluate the situation.
That may or may not have been a valid option in the OP's situation. I don't know.

The important thing is that the OP is OK. Period.

and davelepka
Thank you! Now I see it! Now it makes sense to me!
Thank you so much!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[jwynne 0]

My reserve handle is a silver D ring. It was not the issue. I lost the soft cutaway handle. I do 1 handed cutaways. I have seen cutaway handles that are fabric covered loops. Might be a good idea.

Other thoughts: Grabbing the left toggle or the left rear riser right away might of corrected it, but I used up my time trying something else. I was out of time.

Bill - I'm not sure I would of been OK if I hadn't completed the cutaway. My Cypres should of fired the reserve, but I was feet to earth under a streamer. My reserve might of cleared, or maybe not.

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

I got a PM suggesting that I make my last post a little clearer.

During my brake-fires, which is one brake releasing prematurely, I used rear riser opposite to the spin to stop the spin and evaluate the situation.

This is similar to the OP's situation, but in my case I had a brake release unexpectedly, the reverse of the OP's brake being unable to release.

In both cases, the correct rear riser would be the one with the released brake, opposite the spin.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[jtnesbitt 0]

The original poster brings up a very valid point especially with winter being upon us. Many jumpers are aware of the dangerous of bulky gloves but dont seem to see the danger in your hands being so cold they either dont work or slow down. As silly as it sounds it happens and it can happen fast. The problem is you wont be able to feel your hands not working you'll just know they're cold. I once PCA'd someone in a snowstorm and my hands were so cold that i didnt realize that i didnt let up on the bridal enough and it burned the shit out of my hand...but my hands were so numb i didnt feel it so i actually didnt know it happened until i looked at my hand and saw the blood. My gloves were off my hands maybe 2 minutes max. Another time i had to help a jumper stow his toggles because his hands physically wouldnt cooperate. Same thing, his gloves were off less than two minutes and it was probably about 25 or so degrees outside.

Just something to think about.

"If this post needs to be moderated I would prefer it to be completly removed and not edited and butchered into a disney movie" - DorkZone Hero

[millertime24 8]

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I got a PM suggesting that I make my last post a little clearer.

During my brake-fires, which is one brake releasing prematurely, I used rear riser opposite to the spin to stop the spin and evaluate the situation.

This is similar to the OP's situation, but in my case I had a brake release unexpectedly, the reverse of the OP's brake being unable to release.

In both cases, the correct rear riser would be the one with the released brake, opposite the spin.

I was actually thinking about this one a bit today. Could you not also use the oppisite toggle to counter the spin? Theoreticaly if you were to pull the opposing toggle past where the cats eye passes the guide ring then the canopy should be back where it started when the brakes are set to begin with. I thought this too may be a way to level out of a spin provided grabbing said toggle is doable.

Muff #5048

[airtwardo 7]

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I got a PM suggesting that I make my last post a little clearer.

During my brake-fires, which is one brake releasing prematurely, I used rear riser opposite to the spin to stop the spin and evaluate the situation.

This is similar to the OP's situation, but in my case I had a brake release unexpectedly, the reverse of the OP's brake being unable to release.

In both cases, the correct rear riser would be the one with the released brake, opposite the spin.

I was actually thinking about this one a bit today. Could you not also use the opposite toggle to counter the spin? Theoretically if you were to pull the opposing toggle past where the cats eye passes the guide ring then the canopy should be back where it started when the brakes are set to begin with. I thought this too may be a way to level out of a spin provided grabbing said toggle is doable.

~That's what I do, in fact I've held the toggle in my teeth so I could use both hands to do some impromptu aerial rigging.

Gotta remember to spit it out if ya chop though!





...I've also found a light shot of silicone spray on the toggle keeper post makes hangups happen less often.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[airtwardo 7]

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The original poster brings up a very valid point especially with winter being upon us. Many jumpers are aware of the dangerous of bulky gloves but dont seem to see the danger in your hands being so cold they either dont work or slow down.

Check out the 'bulky gloves' I wore back in the day...
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=57479;

Big and warm they worked for just about everything except cutting away, which back then required both thumbs through wire loops...the gloves were big enough a quick snap of the wrist sent them flying off into never(find 'em)land.

These days if a pair of rubber surgical gloves under medium weight batting gloves doesn't keep my claws warm enough...I go to California and jump.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

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I got a PM suggesting that I make my last post a little clearer.

During my brake-fires, which is one brake releasing prematurely, I used rear riser opposite to the spin to stop the spin and evaluate the situation.

This is similar to the OP's situation, but in my case I had a brake release unexpectedly, the reverse of the OP's brake being unable to release.

In both cases, the correct rear riser would be the one with the released brake, opposite the spin.

I was actually thinking about this one a bit today. Could you not also use the oppisite toggle to counter the spin? Theoreticaly if you were to pull the opposing toggle past where the cats eye passes the guide ring then the canopy should be back where it started when the brakes are set to begin with. I thought this too may be a way to level out of a spin provided grabbing said toggle is doable.

In my case, I didn't know I had a brake fire right away. My first instinct was to "stop the spin" and my trained response for turns right after the canopy opens (collision avoidance for example) is to use the risers and not the brakes.
Mostly a reflexive response to stop the spin and then evaluate the situation.

I don't see any reason you couldn't do it with a toggle, if you had time to think about it. But that's a big if

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[shah269 0]

OK sorry another dumb one...brake fire
what is that?

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[wolfriverjoe 1,523]

See post 13. Premature brake release.

Having a brake release during the opening sequence. It throws you into a spin. The smaller the canopy, the more intense the spin.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[shah269 0]

OK roger!
Just a strange name for it.
Makes it sound like something snapped or exploded..
OK cool!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!

[Andy9o8 2]

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OK roger!
Just a strange name for it.
Makes it sound like something snapped or exploded..
OK cool!

Well, I know your English is almost as bad as your Farsi.

From thefreedictionary.com:

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v. fired, fir·ing, fires
v.tr.
.....

6.
a. To propel (a projectile); launch (a missile).
b. Informal To throw with force and speed; hurl: fire a ball at a batter.

And of course, as you know, "brake" is another word for "steering line" or "steering toggle". Thus, when the steering toggle (the brake) gets prematurely released and thrown away (fired) from the riser, it's a "Brake .... fire" .

[toolbox 0]

Thats what I've done. Look up,find the fired toggle,and pull it down until flying level.
Then had no problem popping the other toggle.

[hofstar 0]

I don't feel as safe jumping in the cold. Even with warm gloves on, I've had trouble gripping my pilot chute in a few instances, which makes me a little uncomfortable. I also once had a brake get knotted up when i tried to release it (I somehow pulled the toggle through its excess), and trying to untie the knot with gloves and numb fingers was completely futile. I grabbed my cutaway handle, and was surprised by how difficult it was to get a good grip. I had plenty of time, and I ended up deciding I could steer with the good toggle and land it at half brakes anyway, but if circumstances were different and I needed to cutaway immediately, I'm not 100% confident I could have done it quickly with my hands that numb.

The scary part is, as I think someone mentioned above, you often don't realize how numb your hands are until you try to use them...until you need them.

Glad to hear you're alright.

[shah269 0]

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And of course, as you know, "brake" is another word for "steering line" or "steering toggle". Thus, when the steering toggle (the brake) gets prematurely released and thrown away (fired) from the riser, it's a "Brake .... fire" .

OK now I see it! Thanks for the description I understand it!

Life through good thoughts, good words, and good deeds is necessary to ensure happiness and to keep chaos at bay.

The only thing that falls from the sky is birdshit and fools!