MakeItHappen 15 #51 June 26, 2006 QuoteYou can see this on amazon.com in the Electronics section - "you have to add this to your shopping cart before we tell you how much it'll cost". B&H Photo/Video require you to click a button to get the price emailed to you automatically. That may be what'll end up happening with the online stores in skydiving. Square1 Parachute Sales and Service implemented both of these techniques last Friday. Other online stores either still have their old retail prices up (that they have to take down), suggested mfg retail price or ask a customer to call. Over the weekend, when Square1 was closed, we had many customers requesting price quotes, including people from France and Denmark. Quote I spoke to a dealer this weekend, via new pricing structure he gets everything except for velo's and ka's cheaper. In contrast, all of Square1's retail prices for PD canopies went up, some as much as 19%. PD has rewarded it's high volume dealers, such as Square1, in other ways. PD and Square1 set up an infrastructure that allows PD stock canopies to be automatically added to the Square1 online catalog. Any time PD has a new canopy in stock you can BUY IT NOW from Square1. Square1 allows you to check the price via an email request or just add it to the cart, as well as, calling them on their toll free number 1-800-877-7191 (US Only) or 951-657-8260. PD has great products and I jump a PD reserve. This request to not advertise discounted prices is annoying to a customer. Thank-you anyway, PD, for putting several hundred dollars in my pocket. .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HydroGuy 0 #52 June 26, 2006 How exactly is raising prices going to help customer service from dealers? I've seen people working in gear shops that have 0 skydives, 50 skydives, 500 skydives and thousands of skydives. Gear shop customers have 0 skydives, 50 skydives and thousands of skydives. Hypothetically, If I have 2000 jumps and want to buy a new Velo, besides paying a higher price and having to go through more hassles to even figure out what that higher price is, how will PD's new structuring benefit me? Are gear dealers supposed to be taking on the role of instructor? Is everyone working in a store qualified to take on this role? Is PD going to offer/require a training program or AFF rating for gear store employees to truely insure that everyone paying more for their canopies is going to become a better skydiver? I have no problem with PD increasing their prices, but the press release they issued on the front page of DZ.com was a load of crap....IMO. And if PD reserves went up 19% and Aerodyne doesn't increase their prices dramatically, I will be putting a Smart in my new kit.Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #53 June 26, 2006 Quote And if PD reserves went up 19% and Aerodyne doesn't increase their prices dramatically, I will be putting a Smart in my new kit. I've got a Smart 220 in my current rig, and I'll probably have another Smart in my next rig. I haven't jumped a PD reserve, but I was impressed with the Smart after my first ride on it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites tdog 0 #54 June 26, 2006 QuoteHow exactly is raising prices going to help customer service from dealers? I've seen people working in gear shops that have 0 skydives, 50 skydives, 500 skydives and thousands of skydives. Gear shop customers have 0 skydives, 50 skydives and thousands of skydives. Dominic, who used to work at Square 1 - was very instrumental in helping me choose the right gear for my first rig, via e-mail and telephone calls. He worked real hard educating me - and made me a loyal customer... Then, I visited Perris for a training camp, and before my new gear arrived, they let me demo some rigs, to see what the different ones were like. Now that I know what I want, because I have more knowledge of gear and don't need a sales person to give me info because I have friends who are really good riggers and/or canopy pilots to ask questions of, I still am going to give all my business to Square 1, because of the effort they made to make me a loyal customer and all the demos I was able to jump. My point... Dealers and PD... Concentrate your effort on the novice skydivers who need the customer service and education - who don't really know the simple things like, "do the risers come with the canopy or container?" And, if they are loyal like me, they will continue to buy from you... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites isaiah85 0 #55 June 26, 2006 Quote We all understand having to increase prices due to material and labor cost increases. But if you want to help your dealers, you don't do it by reducing their maximum potential margin by raising dealer prices without adjusting the "retail" price. Quote Well, the problem with the old system is that the "retail" price was only a number that was used to determine the % off, nobody ever paid "retail" for a canopy, so in theory the maximum potential margin was reduced, but in the same way as if the "retail" price before on a canopy was $6000 and everyone bought them at 75% off, retail price would mean nothing really, why not just say the canopies cost $1500, rather then "that’s a $6000 canopy, but I'll sell it to you for 75% off". With the new structure, a dealers "potential" margin is still more then they ever made before. Quote Weeding out some of those individual "dealers" who are buying direct from PD and selling at cost would be a better approach For a couple reasons this is necessary, and going to happen. We want the dealers who represent our products to be knowledgeable on the products and service their customers they way they should. PD is the best in the industry, from products to service and we don't expect any less from our dealers. Sure, some people don't think they care about service when buying a canopy, because they know what they want, but when there is a problem and they are not taken care of, it's a problem. Why should we support and promote a dealer that doesn't support our customers they way we feel they should? Isaiah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites isaiah85 0 #56 June 26, 2006 QuoteHow exactly is raising prices going to help customer service from dealers?Quote You’re looking at two different things and trying to make them one. We had a price increase. Depending on the canopy, they went up 3-18%. This will do nothing for you or the dealer; it will allow PD to stay in business. Two, the new structure will allow dealers to focus their attention on servicing the customer, rather then worrying about undercutting another dealer just to get the sale. This will make things easier for both the dealer and the customer. Quote Hypothetically, If I have 2000 jumps and want to buy a new Velo, besides paying a higher price and having to go through more hassles to even figure out what that higher price is, how will PD's new structuring benefit me?Quote Hypothetically, you are buying a new Velo, with the old structure, you call dealer 1 ask them for the best price, hang up, call dealer 2, tell them "so and so said they would sell me the canopy at $$$" "what price will you give me?" and they say something just under what dealer 1 said, and so on. Not really what I would call a simple way of doing business, unless you really like haggling. It was more like buying used cars.... With the new structure, you can expect to find prices all about the same, without all the haggling. As well, if there is a problem, wrong color, wrong size, you just don't like the canopy. The dealers will be better equipped to help you out. Service always seems useless until you need it. Quote And if PD reserves went up 19% Quote Nope, Reserves only went up a small amount. Isaiah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #57 June 26, 2006 PD snobs, you might have a problem. That's not the end of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kolla 0 #58 June 26, 2006 The plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - you hit the nail exactly on the head there :) And again, definitely a lot of changes here, but after the dust has settled I'm confident that we will see a stronger dealer network that is better able to both take care of their customers and run a viable business. The forums here are not the appropriate place to go into details, so you will just have to take my word for it - for the time being at least. I'll see you at Skyfest! Kolla I'll see you at SkyfestBlue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sdctlc 0 #59 June 26, 2006 QuoteThe plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - The forums here are not the appropriate place to go into details, so you will just have to take my word for it - for the time being at least. No really Trust me! That is a strange response. Separate from that constant theam that PD seems to be promoting through semi official responses on the forum, I do agree that the forums is probably not the best way to do it. If the manufacturer is not happy with the a % of dealers, why not dump them. It is your product and the manufaturer has the right to all distrbution through any channel they see fit. If the bargain shopper gets his "Quote" through the 1st dealer, what would stop him from trying to do exactly what you have said this will avoid? apparantly there are a number of peices to the puzzel that are left out... the pricing change probably should not have even been noted since the List prices apparantly stayed the same and it is an adjustment on Dealer cost. Maybe inplementing a teir system, I dont know. This seems like a case of Too Much Info for consumers and the statment of it will be better. If the list prices are staying the same why did word even get out that the distrubition set up was changing.. I hope it works out great and that skydivers that want to get a PD canopy find it more efficient, better service and all the other pie in the sky, sugar ferry lollypop dreams that are being alluded to but it seems to be a cluster right now... that is IMHO. of course... Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #60 June 26, 2006 QuoteTwo, the new structure will allow dealers to focus their attention on servicing the customer, rather then worrying about undercutting another dealer just to get the sale. This will make things easier for both the dealer and the customer. Hypothetically, you are buying a new Velo, with the old structure, you call dealer 1 ask them for the best price, hang up, call dealer 2, tell them "so and so said they would sell me the canopy at $$$" "what price will you give me?" and they say something just under what dealer 1 said, and so on. Not really what I would call a simple way of doing business, unless you really like haggling. It was more like buying used cars.... With the new structure, you can expect to find prices all about the same, without all the haggling. How does the new wholesale price scheme and the 'do not display discounted prices' policy change this? People are still going to call/email and play one dealer against the other. Dealers will still cut their profit a tiny bit to make a sale. Some dealers will go down to zero profit. Ed Cummings did that with Cypres sales, just to get people to use an AAD. In return, he had customers for the future for rigging work. Of course, I believe he's not in the parachute biz anymore, but I don't think it was from selling a cypres at cost. That reminds me. Airtec at one time said 'do not display discounted prices' to its dealers. Now they compete with other AAD brands. It's not the dealer-dealer competition that PD should worry about, it's the competition from other canopy manufacturers. Quote As well, if there is a problem, wrong color, wrong size, you just don't like the canopy. The dealers will be better equipped to help you out. Service always seems useless until you need it. How are they better equipped? Let's say a dealer makes $200 per canopy under the new system, whereas they could make more than that under the old system because of volume discounts. How does taking away income provide for more support & service? To me, it looks like it'll be more profitable to sell or push other brands of canopies as opposed to PD. Maybe PD's return or exchange policy is where the problem is? By inference from other posts, PD raised wholesale prices for some dealers and lowered them for other dealers. To me, that implies PD cut out the volume discounts on wholesale prices. In the book industry the large retailers get discounts for volume. They may lack in service compared to the tiny Mom & Pop bookstore. In the skydiving industry, the large retailers are still Mom & Pop sized and provide excellent service. Quote The plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - you hit the nail exactly on the head there :) PD implemented a policy to get rid of the 'riff-raff' 'trunk' dealers. That really sounds more of an internal problem between PD and their dealers. Amazon.com does not walk a customer over to a shelf and hand a customer a book, as a small retailer would. Yet they have deep discounts over their competitors and sell a lot of products. Quote And again, definitely a lot of changes here, but after the dust has settled I'm confident that we will see a stronger dealer network that is better able to both take care of their customers and run a viable business. Aren't they PD's customers too? It's only a matter of time for someone to create a 100% online store with no brick and mortar store. No questions asked, here's your parachute. I would not want to see that happen, but it will. I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #61 June 27, 2006 I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? . Very good point Jan!! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #62 June 27, 2006 QuoteAs for your Icarus comment, what makes you so sure they, or other manufacturers won't do the same thing? Blues, Ian well I just though it was a perfect opportunity to plug the company of my choice. plus the one that throws the first puch is always the bad guy! it is the same with petrol prices it takes the first company to put the price up for the others to follow suit! so even if everyone puts thier prices up then PD are to blame!!!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #63 June 27, 2006 Quote I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? . Very good point Jan!! Mick. Very good point - however, wouldn't the safety placard on the canopy, much like the DZ waiver, provide at least SOME protection to the manufacturer, in the sense of "informed consent"?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #64 June 27, 2006 Make no mistake, If retailers do not publish the current accurate price of a PD canopies, I will not buy a PD canopy. It's really is quite simple. Yay competition! _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #65 June 27, 2006 QuoteIf retailers do not publish the current accurate price of their products, I will not buy products from that retailer AM - I agree and then some. In general - Website catalogs are for the customer's convenience. I just don't trust a catalog that won't publish the prices, kind of takes away the whole customer service angle, doesn't it? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sdctlc 0 #66 June 27, 2006 I thik they (PD) should take the approach of this is the customer price! No haggling, no cross comparison between dealers. You know like the used and new car dealers that advertise "Lowest Price Noted" or "No Pressure" ..... blah blah blah If they want to force customer service from dealers, have ALL dealers sell canopies at the same price. Sell for "X" and dealer makes a set amount. Volume dealers, you could argue, should get a slightly bigger break on wholesale cost but they have higher volume based on marketing and name recognition. Take away pricing and you wont hurt small local dealers given there is no price advantage and jumpers may be likely to stay local. Sell more and the dealer will get to a highyer teir and make a few more dollors. Additional discounts Maybe could come into play in the form of a package price with a main and a reserve. Maybne another package price for a complete rig. More you buy the better value on the canopy. Set the customer price and let the money the dealer makes stay behind the scenes as it is really not th customers business anyway. A dealer has the right to make some money as well.. Scott"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #67 June 27, 2006 It's goofy all around. If they don't want to sell direct, then they sell to the dealers only and stay out of it past that point. And the dealer price is none of the customer's business. Dealers then set their own price and buyer has to be smart enough to shop around. Safety issues, etc are the responsibilies of the S&TAs and the Instructors and the DZOs and the jumpers. If this part is being screwed up, I don't see how PD can be blamed - they provide adequate guidance and advice in forums separate from the actual sale and via the test jumping program they have. Price fixing is silly. I trust the market forces. Edit: I honestly believe that PD is doing this with very good intentions. I just don't see the point. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #68 June 27, 2006 It's only a matter of time for someone to create a 100% online store with no brick and mortar store. No questions asked, here's your parachute. I would not want to see that happen, but it will. It already has, a couple of times. One advertises on this website.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base935 0 #69 June 27, 2006 Where is personal responsibility in all of this? Can't a potentially unqualified buy a used PD canopy from the dz.com classifieds and get the best price, bypassing all the dealers that are going to question and try to get him/her into the right canopy? Have any other manufacturers marked up their prices, other than PD? Are any other manufacturers, who are citing higher labor costs, moved large amount of canopy productions into Honduras and other South American countries?Gravity Research Institute Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #70 June 27, 2006 Very good point - however, wouldn't the safety placard on the canopy, much like the DZ waiver, provide at least SOME protection to the manufacturer, in the sense of "informed consent"? Doesn't stop anyone from sueing you though. It costs a small fortune just to successfully defend yourself, even if the suit never goes to trial. Plus "informed consent" doesn't stop next of kin from sueing on behalf of the "victim", either way it all costs money, lot's of money. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,049 #71 June 27, 2006 >I still am going to give all my business to Square 1, because of >the effort they made to make me a loyal customer and all the > demos I was able to jump. After talking to some dealers around here, I can see dealers pushing products other than PD (they're peeved at this new policy.) It's happened before with things like helmets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,049 #72 June 27, 2006 >Are they really purporting that raising their prices is going to make >someone a better skydiver? Well, the old Irish definition of "diplomat" comes to mind. PD is raising their prices, and claims like "we are doing this to help skydivers become better skydivers" may soften the blow. But I suspect very little is going to change; canopies are just going to cost more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #73 June 27, 2006 Quote Well, the old Irish definition of "diplomat" comes to mind. There's a comedy club around here that advertises admission based on a roleroll of dice. They don't advertise fair dice My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickanderson 0 #74 June 28, 2006 now that the katanas are available in bigger sizes EVERBODY will want one! this is a very good time to raise prices on katana, yes? lower prices on sabre? doesnt matter, EVERYBODY wants a katana now. Smart people at PD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites divnswoop 0 #75 June 28, 2006 Quotenow that the katanas are available in bigger sizes EVERBODY will want one! this is a very good time to raise prices on katana, yes? lower prices on sabre? doesnt matter, EVERYBODY wants a katana now. Smart people at PD WTF ever....PD spent TOO much money trying to satisfy 6% of the whining skydiving community. They could have spent all that time and money on something that would have made them FAR more money than larger Katana's........Think PD is all about $$.......you have no clue... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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tdog 0 #54 June 26, 2006 QuoteHow exactly is raising prices going to help customer service from dealers? I've seen people working in gear shops that have 0 skydives, 50 skydives, 500 skydives and thousands of skydives. Gear shop customers have 0 skydives, 50 skydives and thousands of skydives. Dominic, who used to work at Square 1 - was very instrumental in helping me choose the right gear for my first rig, via e-mail and telephone calls. He worked real hard educating me - and made me a loyal customer... Then, I visited Perris for a training camp, and before my new gear arrived, they let me demo some rigs, to see what the different ones were like. Now that I know what I want, because I have more knowledge of gear and don't need a sales person to give me info because I have friends who are really good riggers and/or canopy pilots to ask questions of, I still am going to give all my business to Square 1, because of the effort they made to make me a loyal customer and all the demos I was able to jump. My point... Dealers and PD... Concentrate your effort on the novice skydivers who need the customer service and education - who don't really know the simple things like, "do the risers come with the canopy or container?" And, if they are loyal like me, they will continue to buy from you... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
isaiah85 0 #55 June 26, 2006 Quote We all understand having to increase prices due to material and labor cost increases. But if you want to help your dealers, you don't do it by reducing their maximum potential margin by raising dealer prices without adjusting the "retail" price. Quote Well, the problem with the old system is that the "retail" price was only a number that was used to determine the % off, nobody ever paid "retail" for a canopy, so in theory the maximum potential margin was reduced, but in the same way as if the "retail" price before on a canopy was $6000 and everyone bought them at 75% off, retail price would mean nothing really, why not just say the canopies cost $1500, rather then "that’s a $6000 canopy, but I'll sell it to you for 75% off". With the new structure, a dealers "potential" margin is still more then they ever made before. Quote Weeding out some of those individual "dealers" who are buying direct from PD and selling at cost would be a better approach For a couple reasons this is necessary, and going to happen. We want the dealers who represent our products to be knowledgeable on the products and service their customers they way they should. PD is the best in the industry, from products to service and we don't expect any less from our dealers. Sure, some people don't think they care about service when buying a canopy, because they know what they want, but when there is a problem and they are not taken care of, it's a problem. Why should we support and promote a dealer that doesn't support our customers they way we feel they should? Isaiah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites isaiah85 0 #56 June 26, 2006 QuoteHow exactly is raising prices going to help customer service from dealers?Quote You’re looking at two different things and trying to make them one. We had a price increase. Depending on the canopy, they went up 3-18%. This will do nothing for you or the dealer; it will allow PD to stay in business. Two, the new structure will allow dealers to focus their attention on servicing the customer, rather then worrying about undercutting another dealer just to get the sale. This will make things easier for both the dealer and the customer. Quote Hypothetically, If I have 2000 jumps and want to buy a new Velo, besides paying a higher price and having to go through more hassles to even figure out what that higher price is, how will PD's new structuring benefit me?Quote Hypothetically, you are buying a new Velo, with the old structure, you call dealer 1 ask them for the best price, hang up, call dealer 2, tell them "so and so said they would sell me the canopy at $$$" "what price will you give me?" and they say something just under what dealer 1 said, and so on. Not really what I would call a simple way of doing business, unless you really like haggling. It was more like buying used cars.... With the new structure, you can expect to find prices all about the same, without all the haggling. As well, if there is a problem, wrong color, wrong size, you just don't like the canopy. The dealers will be better equipped to help you out. Service always seems useless until you need it. Quote And if PD reserves went up 19% Quote Nope, Reserves only went up a small amount. Isaiah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #57 June 26, 2006 PD snobs, you might have a problem. That's not the end of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kolla 0 #58 June 26, 2006 The plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - you hit the nail exactly on the head there :) And again, definitely a lot of changes here, but after the dust has settled I'm confident that we will see a stronger dealer network that is better able to both take care of their customers and run a viable business. The forums here are not the appropriate place to go into details, so you will just have to take my word for it - for the time being at least. I'll see you at Skyfest! Kolla I'll see you at SkyfestBlue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sdctlc 0 #59 June 26, 2006 QuoteThe plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - The forums here are not the appropriate place to go into details, so you will just have to take my word for it - for the time being at least. No really Trust me! That is a strange response. Separate from that constant theam that PD seems to be promoting through semi official responses on the forum, I do agree that the forums is probably not the best way to do it. If the manufacturer is not happy with the a % of dealers, why not dump them. It is your product and the manufaturer has the right to all distrbution through any channel they see fit. If the bargain shopper gets his "Quote" through the 1st dealer, what would stop him from trying to do exactly what you have said this will avoid? apparantly there are a number of peices to the puzzel that are left out... the pricing change probably should not have even been noted since the List prices apparantly stayed the same and it is an adjustment on Dealer cost. Maybe inplementing a teir system, I dont know. This seems like a case of Too Much Info for consumers and the statment of it will be better. If the list prices are staying the same why did word even get out that the distrubition set up was changing.. I hope it works out great and that skydivers that want to get a PD canopy find it more efficient, better service and all the other pie in the sky, sugar ferry lollypop dreams that are being alluded to but it seems to be a cluster right now... that is IMHO. of course... Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #60 June 26, 2006 QuoteTwo, the new structure will allow dealers to focus their attention on servicing the customer, rather then worrying about undercutting another dealer just to get the sale. This will make things easier for both the dealer and the customer. Hypothetically, you are buying a new Velo, with the old structure, you call dealer 1 ask them for the best price, hang up, call dealer 2, tell them "so and so said they would sell me the canopy at $$$" "what price will you give me?" and they say something just under what dealer 1 said, and so on. Not really what I would call a simple way of doing business, unless you really like haggling. It was more like buying used cars.... With the new structure, you can expect to find prices all about the same, without all the haggling. How does the new wholesale price scheme and the 'do not display discounted prices' policy change this? People are still going to call/email and play one dealer against the other. Dealers will still cut their profit a tiny bit to make a sale. Some dealers will go down to zero profit. Ed Cummings did that with Cypres sales, just to get people to use an AAD. In return, he had customers for the future for rigging work. Of course, I believe he's not in the parachute biz anymore, but I don't think it was from selling a cypres at cost. That reminds me. Airtec at one time said 'do not display discounted prices' to its dealers. Now they compete with other AAD brands. It's not the dealer-dealer competition that PD should worry about, it's the competition from other canopy manufacturers. Quote As well, if there is a problem, wrong color, wrong size, you just don't like the canopy. The dealers will be better equipped to help you out. Service always seems useless until you need it. How are they better equipped? Let's say a dealer makes $200 per canopy under the new system, whereas they could make more than that under the old system because of volume discounts. How does taking away income provide for more support & service? To me, it looks like it'll be more profitable to sell or push other brands of canopies as opposed to PD. Maybe PD's return or exchange policy is where the problem is? By inference from other posts, PD raised wholesale prices for some dealers and lowered them for other dealers. To me, that implies PD cut out the volume discounts on wholesale prices. In the book industry the large retailers get discounts for volume. They may lack in service compared to the tiny Mom & Pop bookstore. In the skydiving industry, the large retailers are still Mom & Pop sized and provide excellent service. Quote The plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - you hit the nail exactly on the head there :) PD implemented a policy to get rid of the 'riff-raff' 'trunk' dealers. That really sounds more of an internal problem between PD and their dealers. Amazon.com does not walk a customer over to a shelf and hand a customer a book, as a small retailer would. Yet they have deep discounts over their competitors and sell a lot of products. Quote And again, definitely a lot of changes here, but after the dust has settled I'm confident that we will see a stronger dealer network that is better able to both take care of their customers and run a viable business. Aren't they PD's customers too? It's only a matter of time for someone to create a 100% online store with no brick and mortar store. No questions asked, here's your parachute. I would not want to see that happen, but it will. I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #61 June 27, 2006 I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? . Very good point Jan!! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #62 June 27, 2006 QuoteAs for your Icarus comment, what makes you so sure they, or other manufacturers won't do the same thing? Blues, Ian well I just though it was a perfect opportunity to plug the company of my choice. plus the one that throws the first puch is always the bad guy! it is the same with petrol prices it takes the first company to put the price up for the others to follow suit! so even if everyone puts thier prices up then PD are to blame!!!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #63 June 27, 2006 Quote I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? . Very good point Jan!! Mick. Very good point - however, wouldn't the safety placard on the canopy, much like the DZ waiver, provide at least SOME protection to the manufacturer, in the sense of "informed consent"?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #64 June 27, 2006 Make no mistake, If retailers do not publish the current accurate price of a PD canopies, I will not buy a PD canopy. It's really is quite simple. Yay competition! _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #65 June 27, 2006 QuoteIf retailers do not publish the current accurate price of their products, I will not buy products from that retailer AM - I agree and then some. In general - Website catalogs are for the customer's convenience. I just don't trust a catalog that won't publish the prices, kind of takes away the whole customer service angle, doesn't it? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sdctlc 0 #66 June 27, 2006 I thik they (PD) should take the approach of this is the customer price! No haggling, no cross comparison between dealers. You know like the used and new car dealers that advertise "Lowest Price Noted" or "No Pressure" ..... blah blah blah If they want to force customer service from dealers, have ALL dealers sell canopies at the same price. Sell for "X" and dealer makes a set amount. Volume dealers, you could argue, should get a slightly bigger break on wholesale cost but they have higher volume based on marketing and name recognition. Take away pricing and you wont hurt small local dealers given there is no price advantage and jumpers may be likely to stay local. Sell more and the dealer will get to a highyer teir and make a few more dollors. Additional discounts Maybe could come into play in the form of a package price with a main and a reserve. Maybne another package price for a complete rig. More you buy the better value on the canopy. Set the customer price and let the money the dealer makes stay behind the scenes as it is really not th customers business anyway. A dealer has the right to make some money as well.. Scott"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #67 June 27, 2006 It's goofy all around. If they don't want to sell direct, then they sell to the dealers only and stay out of it past that point. And the dealer price is none of the customer's business. Dealers then set their own price and buyer has to be smart enough to shop around. Safety issues, etc are the responsibilies of the S&TAs and the Instructors and the DZOs and the jumpers. If this part is being screwed up, I don't see how PD can be blamed - they provide adequate guidance and advice in forums separate from the actual sale and via the test jumping program they have. Price fixing is silly. I trust the market forces. Edit: I honestly believe that PD is doing this with very good intentions. I just don't see the point. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #68 June 27, 2006 It's only a matter of time for someone to create a 100% online store with no brick and mortar store. No questions asked, here's your parachute. I would not want to see that happen, but it will. It already has, a couple of times. One advertises on this website.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base935 0 #69 June 27, 2006 Where is personal responsibility in all of this? Can't a potentially unqualified buy a used PD canopy from the dz.com classifieds and get the best price, bypassing all the dealers that are going to question and try to get him/her into the right canopy? Have any other manufacturers marked up their prices, other than PD? Are any other manufacturers, who are citing higher labor costs, moved large amount of canopy productions into Honduras and other South American countries?Gravity Research Institute Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #70 June 27, 2006 Very good point - however, wouldn't the safety placard on the canopy, much like the DZ waiver, provide at least SOME protection to the manufacturer, in the sense of "informed consent"? Doesn't stop anyone from sueing you though. It costs a small fortune just to successfully defend yourself, even if the suit never goes to trial. Plus "informed consent" doesn't stop next of kin from sueing on behalf of the "victim", either way it all costs money, lot's of money. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,049 #71 June 27, 2006 >I still am going to give all my business to Square 1, because of >the effort they made to make me a loyal customer and all the > demos I was able to jump. After talking to some dealers around here, I can see dealers pushing products other than PD (they're peeved at this new policy.) It's happened before with things like helmets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,049 #72 June 27, 2006 >Are they really purporting that raising their prices is going to make >someone a better skydiver? Well, the old Irish definition of "diplomat" comes to mind. PD is raising their prices, and claims like "we are doing this to help skydivers become better skydivers" may soften the blow. But I suspect very little is going to change; canopies are just going to cost more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #73 June 27, 2006 Quote Well, the old Irish definition of "diplomat" comes to mind. There's a comedy club around here that advertises admission based on a roleroll of dice. They don't advertise fair dice My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickanderson 0 #74 June 28, 2006 now that the katanas are available in bigger sizes EVERBODY will want one! this is a very good time to raise prices on katana, yes? lower prices on sabre? doesnt matter, EVERYBODY wants a katana now. Smart people at PD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites divnswoop 0 #75 June 28, 2006 Quotenow that the katanas are available in bigger sizes EVERBODY will want one! this is a very good time to raise prices on katana, yes? lower prices on sabre? doesnt matter, EVERYBODY wants a katana now. Smart people at PD WTF ever....PD spent TOO much money trying to satisfy 6% of the whining skydiving community. They could have spent all that time and money on something that would have made them FAR more money than larger Katana's........Think PD is all about $$.......you have no clue... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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isaiah85 0 #56 June 26, 2006 QuoteHow exactly is raising prices going to help customer service from dealers?Quote You’re looking at two different things and trying to make them one. We had a price increase. Depending on the canopy, they went up 3-18%. This will do nothing for you or the dealer; it will allow PD to stay in business. Two, the new structure will allow dealers to focus their attention on servicing the customer, rather then worrying about undercutting another dealer just to get the sale. This will make things easier for both the dealer and the customer. Quote Hypothetically, If I have 2000 jumps and want to buy a new Velo, besides paying a higher price and having to go through more hassles to even figure out what that higher price is, how will PD's new structuring benefit me?Quote Hypothetically, you are buying a new Velo, with the old structure, you call dealer 1 ask them for the best price, hang up, call dealer 2, tell them "so and so said they would sell me the canopy at $$$" "what price will you give me?" and they say something just under what dealer 1 said, and so on. Not really what I would call a simple way of doing business, unless you really like haggling. It was more like buying used cars.... With the new structure, you can expect to find prices all about the same, without all the haggling. As well, if there is a problem, wrong color, wrong size, you just don't like the canopy. The dealers will be better equipped to help you out. Service always seems useless until you need it. Quote And if PD reserves went up 19% Quote Nope, Reserves only went up a small amount. Isaiah Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #57 June 26, 2006 PD snobs, you might have a problem. That's not the end of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Kolla 0 #58 June 26, 2006 The plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - you hit the nail exactly on the head there :) And again, definitely a lot of changes here, but after the dust has settled I'm confident that we will see a stronger dealer network that is better able to both take care of their customers and run a viable business. The forums here are not the appropriate place to go into details, so you will just have to take my word for it - for the time being at least. I'll see you at Skyfest! Kolla I'll see you at SkyfestBlue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sdctlc 0 #59 June 26, 2006 QuoteThe plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - The forums here are not the appropriate place to go into details, so you will just have to take my word for it - for the time being at least. No really Trust me! That is a strange response. Separate from that constant theam that PD seems to be promoting through semi official responses on the forum, I do agree that the forums is probably not the best way to do it. If the manufacturer is not happy with the a % of dealers, why not dump them. It is your product and the manufaturer has the right to all distrbution through any channel they see fit. If the bargain shopper gets his "Quote" through the 1st dealer, what would stop him from trying to do exactly what you have said this will avoid? apparantly there are a number of peices to the puzzel that are left out... the pricing change probably should not have even been noted since the List prices apparantly stayed the same and it is an adjustment on Dealer cost. Maybe inplementing a teir system, I dont know. This seems like a case of Too Much Info for consumers and the statment of it will be better. If the list prices are staying the same why did word even get out that the distrubition set up was changing.. I hope it works out great and that skydivers that want to get a PD canopy find it more efficient, better service and all the other pie in the sky, sugar ferry lollypop dreams that are being alluded to but it seems to be a cluster right now... that is IMHO. of course... Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites MakeItHappen 15 #60 June 26, 2006 QuoteTwo, the new structure will allow dealers to focus their attention on servicing the customer, rather then worrying about undercutting another dealer just to get the sale. This will make things easier for both the dealer and the customer. Hypothetically, you are buying a new Velo, with the old structure, you call dealer 1 ask them for the best price, hang up, call dealer 2, tell them "so and so said they would sell me the canopy at $$$" "what price will you give me?" and they say something just under what dealer 1 said, and so on. Not really what I would call a simple way of doing business, unless you really like haggling. It was more like buying used cars.... With the new structure, you can expect to find prices all about the same, without all the haggling. How does the new wholesale price scheme and the 'do not display discounted prices' policy change this? People are still going to call/email and play one dealer against the other. Dealers will still cut their profit a tiny bit to make a sale. Some dealers will go down to zero profit. Ed Cummings did that with Cypres sales, just to get people to use an AAD. In return, he had customers for the future for rigging work. Of course, I believe he's not in the parachute biz anymore, but I don't think it was from selling a cypres at cost. That reminds me. Airtec at one time said 'do not display discounted prices' to its dealers. Now they compete with other AAD brands. It's not the dealer-dealer competition that PD should worry about, it's the competition from other canopy manufacturers. Quote As well, if there is a problem, wrong color, wrong size, you just don't like the canopy. The dealers will be better equipped to help you out. Service always seems useless until you need it. How are they better equipped? Let's say a dealer makes $200 per canopy under the new system, whereas they could make more than that under the old system because of volume discounts. How does taking away income provide for more support & service? To me, it looks like it'll be more profitable to sell or push other brands of canopies as opposed to PD. Maybe PD's return or exchange policy is where the problem is? By inference from other posts, PD raised wholesale prices for some dealers and lowered them for other dealers. To me, that implies PD cut out the volume discounts on wholesale prices. In the book industry the large retailers get discounts for volume. They may lack in service compared to the tiny Mom & Pop bookstore. In the skydiving industry, the large retailers are still Mom & Pop sized and provide excellent service. Quote The plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - you hit the nail exactly on the head there :) PD implemented a policy to get rid of the 'riff-raff' 'trunk' dealers. That really sounds more of an internal problem between PD and their dealers. Amazon.com does not walk a customer over to a shelf and hand a customer a book, as a small retailer would. Yet they have deep discounts over their competitors and sell a lot of products. Quote And again, definitely a lot of changes here, but after the dust has settled I'm confident that we will see a stronger dealer network that is better able to both take care of their customers and run a viable business. Aren't they PD's customers too? It's only a matter of time for someone to create a 100% online store with no brick and mortar store. No questions asked, here's your parachute. I would not want to see that happen, but it will. I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #61 June 27, 2006 I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? . Very good point Jan!! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rhys 0 #62 June 27, 2006 QuoteAs for your Icarus comment, what makes you so sure they, or other manufacturers won't do the same thing? Blues, Ian well I just though it was a perfect opportunity to plug the company of my choice. plus the one that throws the first puch is always the bad guy! it is the same with petrol prices it takes the first company to put the price up for the others to follow suit! so even if everyone puts thier prices up then PD are to blame!!!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #63 June 27, 2006 Quote I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? . Very good point Jan!! Mick. Very good point - however, wouldn't the safety placard on the canopy, much like the DZ waiver, provide at least SOME protection to the manufacturer, in the sense of "informed consent"?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AndyMan 7 #64 June 27, 2006 Make no mistake, If retailers do not publish the current accurate price of a PD canopies, I will not buy a PD canopy. It's really is quite simple. Yay competition! _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #65 June 27, 2006 QuoteIf retailers do not publish the current accurate price of their products, I will not buy products from that retailer AM - I agree and then some. In general - Website catalogs are for the customer's convenience. I just don't trust a catalog that won't publish the prices, kind of takes away the whole customer service angle, doesn't it? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites sdctlc 0 #66 June 27, 2006 I thik they (PD) should take the approach of this is the customer price! No haggling, no cross comparison between dealers. You know like the used and new car dealers that advertise "Lowest Price Noted" or "No Pressure" ..... blah blah blah If they want to force customer service from dealers, have ALL dealers sell canopies at the same price. Sell for "X" and dealer makes a set amount. Volume dealers, you could argue, should get a slightly bigger break on wholesale cost but they have higher volume based on marketing and name recognition. Take away pricing and you wont hurt small local dealers given there is no price advantage and jumpers may be likely to stay local. Sell more and the dealer will get to a highyer teir and make a few more dollors. Additional discounts Maybe could come into play in the form of a package price with a main and a reserve. Maybne another package price for a complete rig. More you buy the better value on the canopy. Set the customer price and let the money the dealer makes stay behind the scenes as it is really not th customers business anyway. A dealer has the right to make some money as well.. Scott"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #67 June 27, 2006 It's goofy all around. If they don't want to sell direct, then they sell to the dealers only and stay out of it past that point. And the dealer price is none of the customer's business. Dealers then set their own price and buyer has to be smart enough to shop around. Safety issues, etc are the responsibilies of the S&TAs and the Instructors and the DZOs and the jumpers. If this part is being screwed up, I don't see how PD can be blamed - they provide adequate guidance and advice in forums separate from the actual sale and via the test jumping program they have. Price fixing is silly. I trust the market forces. Edit: I honestly believe that PD is doing this with very good intentions. I just don't see the point. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites diablopilot 2 #68 June 27, 2006 It's only a matter of time for someone to create a 100% online store with no brick and mortar store. No questions asked, here's your parachute. I would not want to see that happen, but it will. It already has, a couple of times. One advertises on this website.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites base935 0 #69 June 27, 2006 Where is personal responsibility in all of this? Can't a potentially unqualified buy a used PD canopy from the dz.com classifieds and get the best price, bypassing all the dealers that are going to question and try to get him/her into the right canopy? Have any other manufacturers marked up their prices, other than PD? Are any other manufacturers, who are citing higher labor costs, moved large amount of canopy productions into Honduras and other South American countries?Gravity Research Institute Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #70 June 27, 2006 Very good point - however, wouldn't the safety placard on the canopy, much like the DZ waiver, provide at least SOME protection to the manufacturer, in the sense of "informed consent"? Doesn't stop anyone from sueing you though. It costs a small fortune just to successfully defend yourself, even if the suit never goes to trial. Plus "informed consent" doesn't stop next of kin from sueing on behalf of the "victim", either way it all costs money, lot's of money. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,049 #71 June 27, 2006 >I still am going to give all my business to Square 1, because of >the effort they made to make me a loyal customer and all the > demos I was able to jump. After talking to some dealers around here, I can see dealers pushing products other than PD (they're peeved at this new policy.) It's happened before with things like helmets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites billvon 3,049 #72 June 27, 2006 >Are they really purporting that raising their prices is going to make >someone a better skydiver? Well, the old Irish definition of "diplomat" comes to mind. PD is raising their prices, and claims like "we are doing this to help skydivers become better skydivers" may soften the blow. But I suspect very little is going to change; canopies are just going to cost more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites nathaniel 0 #73 June 27, 2006 Quote Well, the old Irish definition of "diplomat" comes to mind. There's a comedy club around here that advertises admission based on a roleroll of dice. They don't advertise fair dice My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rickanderson 0 #74 June 28, 2006 now that the katanas are available in bigger sizes EVERBODY will want one! this is a very good time to raise prices on katana, yes? lower prices on sabre? doesnt matter, EVERYBODY wants a katana now. Smart people at PD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites divnswoop 0 #75 June 28, 2006 Quotenow that the katanas are available in bigger sizes EVERBODY will want one! this is a very good time to raise prices on katana, yes? lower prices on sabre? doesnt matter, EVERYBODY wants a katana now. Smart people at PD WTF ever....PD spent TOO much money trying to satisfy 6% of the whining skydiving community. They could have spent all that time and money on something that would have made them FAR more money than larger Katana's........Think PD is all about $$.......you have no clue... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 Next Page 3 of 5 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
phoenixlpr 0 #57 June 26, 2006 PD snobs, you might have a problem. That's not the end of the world. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kolla 0 #58 June 26, 2006 The plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - you hit the nail exactly on the head there :) And again, definitely a lot of changes here, but after the dust has settled I'm confident that we will see a stronger dealer network that is better able to both take care of their customers and run a viable business. The forums here are not the appropriate place to go into details, so you will just have to take my word for it - for the time being at least. I'll see you at Skyfest! Kolla I'll see you at SkyfestBlue Skies Magazine Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #59 June 26, 2006 QuoteThe plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - The forums here are not the appropriate place to go into details, so you will just have to take my word for it - for the time being at least. No really Trust me! That is a strange response. Separate from that constant theam that PD seems to be promoting through semi official responses on the forum, I do agree that the forums is probably not the best way to do it. If the manufacturer is not happy with the a % of dealers, why not dump them. It is your product and the manufaturer has the right to all distrbution through any channel they see fit. If the bargain shopper gets his "Quote" through the 1st dealer, what would stop him from trying to do exactly what you have said this will avoid? apparantly there are a number of peices to the puzzel that are left out... the pricing change probably should not have even been noted since the List prices apparantly stayed the same and it is an adjustment on Dealer cost. Maybe inplementing a teir system, I dont know. This seems like a case of Too Much Info for consumers and the statment of it will be better. If the list prices are staying the same why did word even get out that the distrubition set up was changing.. I hope it works out great and that skydivers that want to get a PD canopy find it more efficient, better service and all the other pie in the sky, sugar ferry lollypop dreams that are being alluded to but it seems to be a cluster right now... that is IMHO. of course... Scott C."He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MakeItHappen 15 #60 June 26, 2006 QuoteTwo, the new structure will allow dealers to focus their attention on servicing the customer, rather then worrying about undercutting another dealer just to get the sale. This will make things easier for both the dealer and the customer. Hypothetically, you are buying a new Velo, with the old structure, you call dealer 1 ask them for the best price, hang up, call dealer 2, tell them "so and so said they would sell me the canopy at $$$" "what price will you give me?" and they say something just under what dealer 1 said, and so on. Not really what I would call a simple way of doing business, unless you really like haggling. It was more like buying used cars.... With the new structure, you can expect to find prices all about the same, without all the haggling. How does the new wholesale price scheme and the 'do not display discounted prices' policy change this? People are still going to call/email and play one dealer against the other. Dealers will still cut their profit a tiny bit to make a sale. Some dealers will go down to zero profit. Ed Cummings did that with Cypres sales, just to get people to use an AAD. In return, he had customers for the future for rigging work. Of course, I believe he's not in the parachute biz anymore, but I don't think it was from selling a cypres at cost. That reminds me. Airtec at one time said 'do not display discounted prices' to its dealers. Now they compete with other AAD brands. It's not the dealer-dealer competition that PD should worry about, it's the competition from other canopy manufacturers. Quote As well, if there is a problem, wrong color, wrong size, you just don't like the canopy. The dealers will be better equipped to help you out. Service always seems useless until you need it. How are they better equipped? Let's say a dealer makes $200 per canopy under the new system, whereas they could make more than that under the old system because of volume discounts. How does taking away income provide for more support & service? To me, it looks like it'll be more profitable to sell or push other brands of canopies as opposed to PD. Maybe PD's return or exchange policy is where the problem is? By inference from other posts, PD raised wholesale prices for some dealers and lowered them for other dealers. To me, that implies PD cut out the volume discounts on wholesale prices. In the book industry the large retailers get discounts for volume. They may lack in service compared to the tiny Mom & Pop bookstore. In the skydiving industry, the large retailers are still Mom & Pop sized and provide excellent service. Quote The plan is for the 2% dealer not to be dealers, thats how - you hit the nail exactly on the head there :) PD implemented a policy to get rid of the 'riff-raff' 'trunk' dealers. That really sounds more of an internal problem between PD and their dealers. Amazon.com does not walk a customer over to a shelf and hand a customer a book, as a small retailer would. Yet they have deep discounts over their competitors and sell a lot of products. Quote And again, definitely a lot of changes here, but after the dust has settled I'm confident that we will see a stronger dealer network that is better able to both take care of their customers and run a viable business. Aren't they PD's customers too? It's only a matter of time for someone to create a 100% online store with no brick and mortar store. No questions asked, here's your parachute. I would not want to see that happen, but it will. I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? .. Make It Happen Parachute History DiveMaker Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #61 June 27, 2006 I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? . Very good point Jan!! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhys 0 #62 June 27, 2006 QuoteAs for your Icarus comment, what makes you so sure they, or other manufacturers won't do the same thing? Blues, Ian well I just though it was a perfect opportunity to plug the company of my choice. plus the one that throws the first puch is always the bad guy! it is the same with petrol prices it takes the first company to put the price up for the others to follow suit! so even if everyone puts thier prices up then PD are to blame!!!"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #63 June 27, 2006 Quote I think that maybe a liability issue is also driving this policy change. Are there any lawsuits out there saying 'you sold me a canopy that I hurt/killed myself on. The dealer did not warn me.'? . Very good point Jan!! Mick. Very good point - however, wouldn't the safety placard on the canopy, much like the DZ waiver, provide at least SOME protection to the manufacturer, in the sense of "informed consent"?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AndyMan 7 #64 June 27, 2006 Make no mistake, If retailers do not publish the current accurate price of a PD canopies, I will not buy a PD canopy. It's really is quite simple. Yay competition! _Am__ You put the fun in "funnel" - craichead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #65 June 27, 2006 QuoteIf retailers do not publish the current accurate price of their products, I will not buy products from that retailer AM - I agree and then some. In general - Website catalogs are for the customer's convenience. I just don't trust a catalog that won't publish the prices, kind of takes away the whole customer service angle, doesn't it? ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sdctlc 0 #66 June 27, 2006 I thik they (PD) should take the approach of this is the customer price! No haggling, no cross comparison between dealers. You know like the used and new car dealers that advertise "Lowest Price Noted" or "No Pressure" ..... blah blah blah If they want to force customer service from dealers, have ALL dealers sell canopies at the same price. Sell for "X" and dealer makes a set amount. Volume dealers, you could argue, should get a slightly bigger break on wholesale cost but they have higher volume based on marketing and name recognition. Take away pricing and you wont hurt small local dealers given there is no price advantage and jumpers may be likely to stay local. Sell more and the dealer will get to a highyer teir and make a few more dollors. Additional discounts Maybe could come into play in the form of a package price with a main and a reserve. Maybne another package price for a complete rig. More you buy the better value on the canopy. Set the customer price and let the money the dealer makes stay behind the scenes as it is really not th customers business anyway. A dealer has the right to make some money as well.. Scott"He who Hesitates Shall Inherit the Earth!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #67 June 27, 2006 It's goofy all around. If they don't want to sell direct, then they sell to the dealers only and stay out of it past that point. And the dealer price is none of the customer's business. Dealers then set their own price and buyer has to be smart enough to shop around. Safety issues, etc are the responsibilies of the S&TAs and the Instructors and the DZOs and the jumpers. If this part is being screwed up, I don't see how PD can be blamed - they provide adequate guidance and advice in forums separate from the actual sale and via the test jumping program they have. Price fixing is silly. I trust the market forces. Edit: I honestly believe that PD is doing this with very good intentions. I just don't see the point. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #68 June 27, 2006 It's only a matter of time for someone to create a 100% online store with no brick and mortar store. No questions asked, here's your parachute. I would not want to see that happen, but it will. It already has, a couple of times. One advertises on this website.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
base935 0 #69 June 27, 2006 Where is personal responsibility in all of this? Can't a potentially unqualified buy a used PD canopy from the dz.com classifieds and get the best price, bypassing all the dealers that are going to question and try to get him/her into the right canopy? Have any other manufacturers marked up their prices, other than PD? Are any other manufacturers, who are citing higher labor costs, moved large amount of canopy productions into Honduras and other South American countries?Gravity Research Institute Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #70 June 27, 2006 Very good point - however, wouldn't the safety placard on the canopy, much like the DZ waiver, provide at least SOME protection to the manufacturer, in the sense of "informed consent"? Doesn't stop anyone from sueing you though. It costs a small fortune just to successfully defend yourself, even if the suit never goes to trial. Plus "informed consent" doesn't stop next of kin from sueing on behalf of the "victim", either way it all costs money, lot's of money. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,049 #71 June 27, 2006 >I still am going to give all my business to Square 1, because of >the effort they made to make me a loyal customer and all the > demos I was able to jump. After talking to some dealers around here, I can see dealers pushing products other than PD (they're peeved at this new policy.) It's happened before with things like helmets. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 3,049 #72 June 27, 2006 >Are they really purporting that raising their prices is going to make >someone a better skydiver? Well, the old Irish definition of "diplomat" comes to mind. PD is raising their prices, and claims like "we are doing this to help skydivers become better skydivers" may soften the blow. But I suspect very little is going to change; canopies are just going to cost more. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #73 June 27, 2006 Quote Well, the old Irish definition of "diplomat" comes to mind. There's a comedy club around here that advertises admission based on a roleroll of dice. They don't advertise fair dice My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rickanderson 0 #74 June 28, 2006 now that the katanas are available in bigger sizes EVERBODY will want one! this is a very good time to raise prices on katana, yes? lower prices on sabre? doesnt matter, EVERYBODY wants a katana now. Smart people at PD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
divnswoop 0 #75 June 28, 2006 Quotenow that the katanas are available in bigger sizes EVERBODY will want one! this is a very good time to raise prices on katana, yes? lower prices on sabre? doesnt matter, EVERYBODY wants a katana now. Smart people at PD WTF ever....PD spent TOO much money trying to satisfy 6% of the whining skydiving community. They could have spent all that time and money on something that would have made them FAR more money than larger Katana's........Think PD is all about $$.......you have no clue... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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