Is there any sort of "definitive" AAD guide?

[Telek 0]

I'm just getting my own gear and need to get an AAD, but I've seen a lot of different opinions on what is best to get. Is there any definitive guide or general guidelines on which one I should get?

Also should I get new or used?

Thanks!

[bigway 4]

Cypres.

Vigil seems to have alot of notices being distributed.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Cypres.

Vigil seems to have alot of notices being distributed.

According to the Vigil web site, the service bulletin issued recently was Service Bulletin #2. I'd hardly call that "a lot."

To the original poster, do a search on "Cypres vs. Vigil." You'll get a lot of opinions. You may also wish to talk to a trusted rigger (or riggers) in your local area; they may have ideas as well. But no, there's no "definitive guide," just opinions.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=cypres+vs.+vigil&search_type=AND&search_fields=sb&search_time=&search_user_username=&sb=score&mh=50

As for new vs. used - the used market is going to be more heavily weighted towards Cypres 1 as they've been on the market the longest; Vigil and Cypres 2 are less likely to appear on the used market. Nothing wrong with buying used, just be sure that you're aware of where the unit is in its useful life and what costs you may have to incur (service, battery replacement, shipping) to make it servicable.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[bigway 4]

Sorry.

I asked this question to a reputable gear store owner during the week and that was this persons answer to me.

Sorry.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[Telek 0]

I'm leaning towards Vigil because of the computer interface (even though it's expensive!) are there any cheaper computer interfaces for that?

[NWFlyer 2]

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I'm leaning towards Vigil because of the computer interface (even though it's expensive!) are there any cheaper computer interfaces for that?

I don't own that - I've only ever looked at the data for the previous jump that is visible on the unit itself. I'm not sure what kind of data you get from the Vigil download, but you can probably get similar data at a much better price by looking at something like a Protrack.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[bob.dino 1]

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Is there any definitive guide

Nope.

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...or general guidelines on which one I should get?

The Cypres has been around longer. It also costs more than the Vigil.

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Also should I get new or used?

Up to you. A second-hand Cypres will work just as well as a new one; it just has less service-life left. There's a Used Cypres Value Calculator available on this page, so you know how much you should pay for one.

[Sled14 0]

I was looking for a used one to send in for its 4 or 8 year check, to get it checked out to know its working like it should and isn't damaged. If money is an issue, get a used one. I got one about 2 weeks ago which is 4 years old and just back from the factory for its 4 year check and new battery.

[jakee 1,489]

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I don't own that - I've only ever looked at the data for the previous jump that is visible on the unit itself. I'm not sure what kind of data you get from the Vigil download, but you can probably get similar data at a much better price by looking at something like a Protrack.

From what I've read the vigil jump logging is not meant to replace the more detailed data you get from a protrack or neptune.

To the original poster: You say you've heard 'a lot' of options, apart from Cypres/Cypres2 and Vigil, what are they?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[councilman24 37]

There is no single guide because they are competitors, many people have a dog in the fight based on dealerships, and the rest is opinion. You need to read the various opinions of people and make up your own mind. But, if you decide on a Vigil make sure that your rigger will put it in your container. One current opinion is that the rigger needs approval of the H/C manufacturer to install any AAD, especially a Vigil in a Cypres pocket. At least one H/C doesn't approve the Vigil and at least one major gear dealer doesn't carry it.

Unlike some industries there really are comparison publications or "Editors Choice" articles.

I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

[Telek 0]

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To the original poster: You say you've heard 'a lot' of options, apart from Cypres/Cypres2 and Vigil, what are they?

Spelling mistake -- I meant to say "opinions" not "options". I've generally heard that FXCs are not a preferred AAD, not to mention clunky, but they do work and are solid.

Most of the opinions that I have heard are along the line of "I bought an XXX and I've never had any problems with it". I don't actually know anyone who has had it save their lives, but I imagine that they all work just the same.

You're correct, it looks like the Neptune keeps track of pretty much the same information as the Vigil does, and since I have a Neptune I guess it won't really give me any added value.

[Telek 0]

Actually I just remembered something -- the Vigil apparently is nearly instant from the point where it decides to fire and it fires. The Cypres apparently decides by 1200ft and opens nearly 500ft later, which can be a huge problem if you have a low opening.

Additionally I've heard reports of the (student) Cypres firing under conditions where people are doing spiral turns under 1200ft.

Any comments on these points?

[Samurai136 0]

That's a lot of misinformation for one post.

Both activate at roughly the same altitude, 1000'. Read the manuals. They are both available online in PDF format.

http://www.cypres-usa.com/english_users.pdf
http://www.vigil.aero/pdf/VIGIL-UserManualv2.0.7.pdf

You're buying an expert/ Pro AAD not a student AAD. The student cypres is designed to address a low speed malfunction which the student may not properly respond to.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Telek 0]

The cypres manual says:

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It activates the EOS when it detects a rate of descent higher than 78 mph at an altitude of apx 750 feet AGL.

But a lot of people have said that it makes it's decision around 1200ft AGL, and opens at 750ft AGL. Is this incorrect?

The vigil manual says:

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The Vigil releases at 840 Ft. (256 meters) and below if the freefall speed is equal or superior to 35 m/sec. (78 mph)*

* Once the pre-determined activation altitude and speed is reached, the Vigil will activate
immediately.

I however see from the manual why there has been problems with the student cypres', thanks.

[billvon 2,991]

>But a lot of people have said that it makes it's decision around 1200ft
>AGL, and opens at 750ft AGL. Is this incorrect?

Yes, that is incorrect. The cypres fires when its firing parameters are met. It does not "decide" to fire and then fire 400 feet later. (That would be a sort of dumb way to design an AAD, wouldn't it?)

The reason people think this is that if you have a cypres in a standard mounting location, the act of deploying the main rotates the cypres from a low pressure area (the burble) to a high pressure area (the bottom of the rig now faces the relative wind.) This means that the cypres sees a pressure altitude change of about 200-300 feet. So if you deploy at 900 feet, the cypres will see a descent through 700 feet as the jumper is rotated head-high. This is true of any AAD that relies on barometric pressure and is mounted like a cypres is (like the Vigil.)

[980 0]

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>But a lot of people have said that it makes it's decision around 1200ft
>AGL, and opens at 750ft AGL. Is this incorrect?

Yes, that is incorrect. The cypres fires when its firing parameters are met. It does not "decide" to fire and then fire 400 feet later. (That would be a sort of dumb way to design an AAD, wouldn't it?)

yes and no. that is not entirely incorrect

why does no-one run a search before asking the same questions again and again and again?

the numbers from the Cypres manual are here

I will repeat them anyway.

The Expert Cypres arms at 1100 ft if it calculates you are exceeding 78mph descent rate.

It will then fire at 750 ft if it calculates you are still exceeding 78 mph descent rate.

I believe it arms first to make firing quicker and to prevent misfires.

once armed IT WILL ALSO FIRE IF IT SENSES A LARGE AND/OR ABRUPT PRESSURE CHANGE

which makes it really easy to fire your Cypres above 750 ft (but below 1100 ft) and apparently 90% of Cypres fires are above 750 ft and due to low pulls (which can be as high as 1300ft or above depending on canopy!)

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The reason people think this is that if you have a cypres in a standard mounting location, the act of deploying the main rotates the cypres from a low pressure area (the burble) to a high pressure area (the bottom of the rig now faces the relative wind.) This means that the cypres sees a pressure altitude change of about 200-300 feet. So if you deploy at 900 feet, the cypres will see a descent through 700 feet as the jumper is rotated head-high. This is true of any AAD that relies on barometric pressure and is mounted like a cypres is (like the Vigil.)

that is one case of the large and/or abrupt pressure change I referred to above

I hope some more people with Cypres units will read the manuals and adjust their hard decks accordingly.

Think somewhere in the region of 1700 ft + if you want to avoid firing your Cypres as your reserve sits you up in the harness...

[Reginald 0]

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The Expert Cypres arms at 1100 ft if it calculates you are exceeding 78mph descent rate.

I've never found that in the manual can you point out where it is exactly? It would be a good learning opportunity for me.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[980 0]

that part is not in the manual, nor could I find it anywhere on the SSK site

I learned that when I phoned SSK to determine why my Cypres fired when I know I had a flying reserve at 840 ft.

I also know for a fact that the Cypres fired during my reserve deployment, as I had a Teardrop container and the closing loop is attached to the reserve pilot chute, which was still intact when I retrieved it.

I don't know why they do not make this information more public. Phone SSK and ask them if you need to hear this from someone else.

[bigway 4]

I pulled at 1300 before and my cypres never fired. Must have slowed down quick.

.Karnage Krew Gear Store
.

[jurgencamps 0]

If you are flat on your belly, you have a vacuum on your back. Your AAD is in that vacuum. This vacuum equals an difference in altitude of +/- 200 or 300 ft. So, if you are in a standup position you don't have that vacuum and your AAD will fire higher (200 or 300 ft higher = 750 ft + 200 or 300 Ft = 950 à 1050 ft).

I don't believe the arming at 1100 or 1300 ft theory.

Jurgen

PS There is somewhere at this site a posting from the maker of the VIGIL where they talk about this altitude difference (altitude compensation)

[Timmay 0]

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I don't own that - I've only ever looked at the data for the previous jump that is visible on the unit itself. I'm not sure what kind of data you get from the Vigil download, but you can probably get similar data at a much better price by looking at something like a Protrack.

From what I've read the vigil jump logging is not meant to replace the more detailed data you get from a protrack or neptune.

To the original poster: You say you've heard 'a lot' of options, apart from Cypres/Cypres2 and Vigil, what are they?

I was led to believe from a representative from Vigil that the IR comms between the unit and the computer would only work if you plugged the unit into another seperate device in order to transmit the info.
I.E. it doesn't have the capability to transmit IR built in. This means that if you wanted to download the info, and had it in a Jav for example, where the display unit is located inside the reserve tray, you would have to unpack the reserve.

[bch7773 0]

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Actually I just remembered something -- the Vigil apparently is nearly instant from the point where it decides to fire and it fires. The Cypres apparently decides by 1200ft and opens nearly 500ft later, which can be a huge problem if you have a low opening

I think you are confused. The student Cypres has a decision at 1200 ft, the expert cypres only activates below 750.

you should not be buying a student cypres

MB 3528, RB 1182

[Telek 0]

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I was led to believe from a representative from Vigil that the IR comms between the unit and the computer would only work if you plugged the unit into another seperate device in order to transmit the info.
I.E. it doesn't have the capability to transmit IR built in. This means that if you wanted to download the info, and had it in a Jav for example, where the display unit is located inside the reserve tray, you would have to unpack the reserve.

http://www.vigil.aero/how-irdownloadbox.php

The IR download box plugs into the display unit, not the main unit.

However after looking at what data the Neptune can give out it's clear that you can get the same info out of there, and you can buy 3 Neptunes for the same price as the I/R comms unit for the Vigil!

[Telek 0]

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The Expert Cypres arms at 1100 ft if it calculates you are exceeding 78mph descent rate.

It will then fire at 750 ft if it calculates you are still exceeding 78 mph descent rate.

I believe it arms first to make firing quicker and to prevent misfires.

OK, this is exactly what I mean. Here we have someone who firsthand has experienced a firing even though they were already under a canopy by 840ft. Even though 840ft is pretty close to 750ft, but they also contacted the manufacturer to verify this information.

It could be that the device needs to charge a capacitor or something to fire the solenoid to cut the closing loop, and perhaps this takes a couple of seconds to charge? This would make perfect sense, but doesn't really explain why it would still fire at 750ft if you are already under canopy (but weren't at 1100ft).

So does the Vigil do the same thing? Perhaps I'll make some calls to the manuf's and see what they say.

Not that I ever plan on deploying low, but it's still a consideration. Also the Vigil seems to be cheaper and have a lot more information available from the display unit in terms of data from your jumps, whereas the Cypres doesn't really give you anything does it? So since the Vigil gives more features for less, why go with a Cypres?

[jakee 1,489]

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OK, this is exactly what I mean. Here we have someone who firsthand has experienced a firing even though they were already under a canopy by 840ft. Even though 840ft is pretty close to 750ft, but they also contacted the manufacturer to verify this information.

Go back and reread what Billvon said. Its to do with orientation/pressure changes during the opening sequence and will affect vigils and cypres2 equally.

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Also the Vigil seems to be cheaper and have a lot more information available from the display unit in terms of data from your jumps, whereas the Cypres doesn't really give you anything does it? So since the Vigil gives more features for less, why go with a Cypres?

Some feel that since Airtec (cypres) has been around much longer than AAD (vigil) their products have a better proven track record of reliability. Vigils had a few problems with ground firings when they were first introduced which some people are probably still nervous about.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?