grue 1 #26 July 6, 2006 Quoteyou don't wrap the risers / lines around the bottom of the reserve pack tray (rather then routing them down the sides all the way to the bottom of the main pack tray like one should) to where one riser / line group may "hang up" on the reserve pack tray causing the other to load first? ... *** Another good possibility... It really does sound like one part got loaded first, which is why I'm wondering if the damage was all on one side of even one riser group. ....Grue, it sounds like you're saying you packed it, it that in fact the case? Definitely not the reserve tray thing, I'm a stickler about that. All the damage was in fact to the right side of the canopy. I'll go get some pics of it right now.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #27 July 6, 2006 http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom1.jpg http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom2.jpg http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom3.jpg http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom4.jpg http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom5.jpg http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom6.jpg http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom7.jpg http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom8.jpg The slider is stowed in the pics because it was in my way. It was not stowed on opening.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #28 July 6, 2006 Quote Contact a local master rigger or send it to the manufacturer to have it looked at. Did you know that not all manufacturers will do such work? I've recently learned of one who simply says, "Send it to a master rigger" (and they do suggest one). I'm guessing Precision stands behind their gear after the purchase, as do PD and Velocity Sports equipment. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #29 July 6, 2006 Just got off the phone with Precision, they're gonna take a look at it for me, and let me know how much it'll cost to fix cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #30 July 6, 2006 Okay... you daisy-chained those lines after recovering your cut-away and it wasn't packed that way, right??? JUST KIDDING! Good photos... Interesting that it appars all of the lines failed at the attach points, as in the tab is still in the larks head and its the tab that ripped away from the canopy... looks that way in all pics but one; the one where you're holding a line for a close-up and its obvious the line failed. Anyway, my SWAG is that portion of the canopy / line group loaded before the rest... how exactly that came about, you're guess is as good as mine. Are you in the habbit of looking over your shoulder and watching the bag leave at deployment? ... again, something you can get away with a million million times, but maybe just once can cause a problem. What did you say your wingloading was?? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #31 July 6, 2006 Oh yeah... one more thing... I'll go look it up too to see what Precision puts on the Fusion... but are those lines Kevlar??? Okay... from Precision's web site... those lines are... "High Modulus Aramid fiber suspension lines..." Okay, more stuff to go study up on... Ah, the bane of being a rigger. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #32 July 6, 2006 QuoteOh yeah... one more thing... I'll go look it up too to see what Precision puts on the Fusion... but are those lines Kevlar??? Yup, more or less. Technically HMA.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #33 July 6, 2006 QuoteOkay... you daisy-chained those lines after recovering your cut-away and it wasn't packed that way, right??? JUST KIDDING! Good photos... Interesting that it appars all of the lines failed at the attach points, as in the tab is still in the larks head and its the tab that ripped away from the canopy... looks that way in all pics but one; the one where you're holding a line for a close-up and its obvious the line failed. Anyway, my SWAG is that portion of the canopy / line group loaded before the rest... how exactly that came about, you're guess is as good as mine. Are you in the habbit of looking over your shoulder and watching the bag leave at deployment? ... again, something you can get away with a million million times, but maybe just once can cause a problem. What did you say your wingloading was?? Wingload is about a 1.15 or so. I typically pitch the PC and look straight forward, I don't watch it leave.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #34 July 6, 2006 http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/aramid.htm Aramid Fiber First U.S. Commercial Aramid Fiber Production: 1961, DuPont Company Current U.S. Aramid Fiber Producers: E.I. DuPont de Nemours Inc. Federal Trade Commission Definition for Aramid Fiber: A manufactured fiber in which the fiberforming substance is a long-chain synthetic polyamide in which at least 85% of the amide (-CO-NH-) linkages are attached directly between two aromatic rings. Basic Principles of Aramid Fiber Production — Aramid is spun as a multifilament by a proprietary process developed by DuPont Company Aramid Fiber Characteristics: - No melting point - Low flammability - Good fabric integrity at elevated temperatures - Para-aramid fibers, which have a slightly different molecular structure, also provide outstanding strength-to-weight properties, high tenacity and high modulus. Some major Aramid Fiber uses — Flame-resistant clothing, protective vests and helmets, composites, asbestos replacement, hot air filtration fabrics, tire and mechanical rubber goods reinforcement, ropes and cables, sail cloth, sporting goods. ---------- Hmmm... engineer here, not chemist... , but HMA doesn't sound to be exactly the same thing as Kevlar... however, if HMA has similar "dynamic" qualities to Kevlar (i.e. is less dynamic ("stretchy") then steel cable) then I could see where it wouldn't cause, but could exacerbate a situation where one part of your canopy loaded before the rest. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #35 July 6, 2006 Yeah, it's not exactly the same, but it's very similar insofar as I can tell. since it doesn't stretch, I can definitely see it not helping hte problemcavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #36 July 6, 2006 Yeah, there's been several threads here on DZ.com talking about the pros and cons of different types of materials used for suspension lines... my opinion, but it seems the industry still hasn't hit on a suspension line materal that has all of the Pros (dynamic, doesn't go out of trim, isn't abrasion sensative, isn't heat sensative (the going theory on the con with spectra going out of trim), low pack volume & really strong) and none of the Cons... but we digress... ------------ Polyethylene Fiber Current U.S. Polyethylene Fiber Producer: Honeywell Polyethylene Fiber — (Spectra currently produced in the U.S. by Honeywell) is one of the world's strongest and lightest fibers. A bright white polyethylene, Polyethylene fiber is, pound-for-pound, 10 times stronger than steel and up to 40 percent stronger than aramids. It floats, resists chemicals and water, and exhibits superior fiber-to-fiber abrasion. Polyethylene fibers are used in numerous applications, including police and military ballistic vests, helmets and armored vehicles, sailcloth, fishing lines, marine cordage and lifting slings, and cut-resistant gloves as well as safety apparel. http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/prods.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #37 July 6, 2006 Ah... I take it back... I guess HMA is Kevlar! http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/q-guide.htm#top ... go down the page a bit and under ARAMID, hit "Trade Names"... ... or hit this... http://www.fibersource.com/f-tutor/q-guide.htm#ARAMID QED Wonder why Precision would call it HMA and not the more commonly used name, Kevlar??? hmmmm... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #38 July 6, 2006 Quote Wonder why Precision would call it HMA and not the more commonly used name, Kevlar??? hmmmm... Because it's not Kevlar. Kevlar is more yellow than HMA, and doesn't handle wear as well. They're closely related, but not the same. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #39 July 6, 2006 QuoteQuote Wonder why Precision would call it HMA and not the more commonly used name, Kevlar??? hmmmm... Because it's not Kevlar. Kevlar is more yellow than HMA, and doesn't handle wear as well. They're closely related, but not the same. And you know this how? Come-on show your work... please. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites justinb138 0 #40 July 6, 2006 Have you seen both of them? They look quite a bit different. Kevlar - light yellow color, used in Strong tandem reserves, and I've seen kevlar lines on an older sport reserve, but I can't remember exactly what it was. It's also used as the kill-line for Wings pilot chutes. HMA (Technora) - used on lots of Precision's canopies, and most of the newer HP canopies (JVX, Nitron, Katana, etc..). A coated variant is used on HiPer's canopies (Nitro, Blade). It's black instead of the usual tan-colored line. From the web: Quote Kevlar® An aramid fiber introduced by DuPont in 1971, Kevlar has become the predominant fiber in the racing sector of the sailcloth industry. It is stronger than steel for its weight and has a modulus that is five times greater than polyester. When Kevlar was first introduced there were two types: Type 29 and Type 49 (High Modulus). Type 49 has a 50% higher initial modulus than Type 29 and lower flex strength. Other Kevlar styles (Types 129, 149 and 159) have also been developed, but have seen limited use in sails, since the higher strength goes hand in hand with lower flex strength. Most recently, DuPont has introduced Kevlar Edge, a fiber developed specifically for the sailcloth industry that has a 25% higher tenacity and better modulus than Kevlar 49. However, the benefits of Kevlar 49 vs. Kevlar Edge are still being debated. Additional drawbacks of Kevlar include poor UV resistance (Kevlar loses strength roughly twice as quickly in sunlight as polyester and, when affected, the gold Kevlar fibers turn brown) and rapid loss of strength with flexing, folding and flogging. Minimal flogging and careful handling can greatly extend the life of a Kevlar sail. Technora® Produced in Japan by Teijin, Technora exhibits a similar or somewhat lower initial modulus than Kevlar 29 and slightly higher resistance to flex fatigue. The fiber’s lower UV resistance is enhanced by dying the naturally gold fiber black. Technora is most often used as bias support (X-ply) in laminate sailcloth. HMA is better suited to repeated flexing than Kevlar, which is why it's now becoming common on mains, whereas Kevlar has only seen limited use in reserves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ZigZagMarquis 9 #41 July 6, 2006 Well, my opinion, generally speaking, I discount any visual differences as a strong case for the two not being similar or maybe even the same... kinda like saying a "blue" pair of Denim pants is different from a "black" pair. Anyway, while I'm not qualified to argue the chemistry involved here, both the sources you posested and then ones I did place Kevlar and Technora in the same Aramid family of man-mane fibers. And also, like you say, Kevlar has seen limited use on Reserves... to which I'll add, seems Kevlar has fallen out of favor as a main canopy suspension line material, thus, one wouldn't want to equate the use of HMA (or Technora) as material for main suspension lines when, in lay terms, its pretty much the same stuff... just more fracture / fatigue resistant (i.e. "better suited to repeated flexing"). We digress... but what the heck... another thing I think I've learned about man-made fibres is to not be fooled by differences in Trade Names as they can be different manufacturer to manufacturer. You need to drill back to the generic names which designate the fiber's chemical category to see what / where they really "come from". Example.. Spectra... Polyethylene... not a whole lot different then the milky white plasic milk jug you probably have sitting in your fridge right now... and those suspension lines many of us have on our mains... so... think "GOT MILK" the next time you're going through 2.5K and pitch your pilot chute! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggermick 7 #42 July 6, 2006 http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom3.jpg The slider is stowed in the pics because it was in my way. It was not stowed on opening. The most telling photo is the jpg 3. It shows (what looks like )the first point of loading. All of the other pic's show damage consistant with a line overload. What's significant about the pic is exactly where the lines broke, above the cascade point, unuasul to say the least. Bellow the cascade piont where the finger trap section ends is generally the weakest point of any line junction. In order for the two lines to simultainously break at the same point indicadtes that the line was possibly caught at the actual "y" junction or on the finger trapped section itself or both. Look at the bottom corners of your reserve container, internal riser covers (if equipped), main connector links, main guide rings, main closing loop attachment point and anything in (all) of the immediate areas surrounding these points. There may be damage such as tears, strained stitching and/ or burns (some are very hard to spot and have to be "felt" before becoming recognizable. Without having the gear in front of me I can't be certain but that one pic shows all of the hallmarks of a line hang up. If that was the case thank your lucky stars that the damn thing did break. Glad your'e ok!! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #40 July 6, 2006 Have you seen both of them? They look quite a bit different. Kevlar - light yellow color, used in Strong tandem reserves, and I've seen kevlar lines on an older sport reserve, but I can't remember exactly what it was. It's also used as the kill-line for Wings pilot chutes. HMA (Technora) - used on lots of Precision's canopies, and most of the newer HP canopies (JVX, Nitron, Katana, etc..). A coated variant is used on HiPer's canopies (Nitro, Blade). It's black instead of the usual tan-colored line. From the web: Quote Kevlar® An aramid fiber introduced by DuPont in 1971, Kevlar has become the predominant fiber in the racing sector of the sailcloth industry. It is stronger than steel for its weight and has a modulus that is five times greater than polyester. When Kevlar was first introduced there were two types: Type 29 and Type 49 (High Modulus). Type 49 has a 50% higher initial modulus than Type 29 and lower flex strength. Other Kevlar styles (Types 129, 149 and 159) have also been developed, but have seen limited use in sails, since the higher strength goes hand in hand with lower flex strength. Most recently, DuPont has introduced Kevlar Edge, a fiber developed specifically for the sailcloth industry that has a 25% higher tenacity and better modulus than Kevlar 49. However, the benefits of Kevlar 49 vs. Kevlar Edge are still being debated. Additional drawbacks of Kevlar include poor UV resistance (Kevlar loses strength roughly twice as quickly in sunlight as polyester and, when affected, the gold Kevlar fibers turn brown) and rapid loss of strength with flexing, folding and flogging. Minimal flogging and careful handling can greatly extend the life of a Kevlar sail. Technora® Produced in Japan by Teijin, Technora exhibits a similar or somewhat lower initial modulus than Kevlar 29 and slightly higher resistance to flex fatigue. The fiber’s lower UV resistance is enhanced by dying the naturally gold fiber black. Technora is most often used as bias support (X-ply) in laminate sailcloth. HMA is better suited to repeated flexing than Kevlar, which is why it's now becoming common on mains, whereas Kevlar has only seen limited use in reserves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #41 July 6, 2006 Well, my opinion, generally speaking, I discount any visual differences as a strong case for the two not being similar or maybe even the same... kinda like saying a "blue" pair of Denim pants is different from a "black" pair. Anyway, while I'm not qualified to argue the chemistry involved here, both the sources you posested and then ones I did place Kevlar and Technora in the same Aramid family of man-mane fibers. And also, like you say, Kevlar has seen limited use on Reserves... to which I'll add, seems Kevlar has fallen out of favor as a main canopy suspension line material, thus, one wouldn't want to equate the use of HMA (or Technora) as material for main suspension lines when, in lay terms, its pretty much the same stuff... just more fracture / fatigue resistant (i.e. "better suited to repeated flexing"). We digress... but what the heck... another thing I think I've learned about man-made fibres is to not be fooled by differences in Trade Names as they can be different manufacturer to manufacturer. You need to drill back to the generic names which designate the fiber's chemical category to see what / where they really "come from". Example.. Spectra... Polyethylene... not a whole lot different then the milky white plasic milk jug you probably have sitting in your fridge right now... and those suspension lines many of us have on our mains... so... think "GOT MILK" the next time you're going through 2.5K and pitch your pilot chute! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #42 July 6, 2006 http://spiceweasel.net/skydivingstuff/kaboom3.jpg The slider is stowed in the pics because it was in my way. It was not stowed on opening. The most telling photo is the jpg 3. It shows (what looks like )the first point of loading. All of the other pic's show damage consistant with a line overload. What's significant about the pic is exactly where the lines broke, above the cascade point, unuasul to say the least. Bellow the cascade piont where the finger trap section ends is generally the weakest point of any line junction. In order for the two lines to simultainously break at the same point indicadtes that the line was possibly caught at the actual "y" junction or on the finger trapped section itself or both. Look at the bottom corners of your reserve container, internal riser covers (if equipped), main connector links, main guide rings, main closing loop attachment point and anything in (all) of the immediate areas surrounding these points. There may be damage such as tears, strained stitching and/ or burns (some are very hard to spot and have to be "felt" before becoming recognizable. Without having the gear in front of me I can't be certain but that one pic shows all of the hallmarks of a line hang up. If that was the case thank your lucky stars that the damn thing did break. Glad your'e ok!! Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
justinb138 0 #43 July 6, 2006 IIRC, that's not above a cascade point, as the Fusion has non-cascaded HMA lines. Edit: Line attachment point maybe? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #44 July 7, 2006 Correct, it broke at the soft link. I'll inspect the container itself now, I have nothing better to do. I went over some of it before, I'll look at the rest now.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
grue 1 #45 July 7, 2006 Well, after a cursory examination, I don't see anything the lines appear to have hung on. As noted in the above post, the line broke at the softlink, since my canopy is uncascaded.cavete terrae. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ZigZagMarquis 9 #46 July 7, 2006 QuoteWell, after a cursory examination, I don't see anything the lines appear to have hung on. As noted in the above post, the line broke at the softlink, since my canopy is uncascaded. Probably over-kill, but I'd replace the Slinks. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DeNReN 0 #47 July 7, 2006 QuoteReally glad it sounds like a packing error to you. why do you come to this judegement so quick?? QuoteSOUNDS to me like a packing error(NEWB TALKING...I KNOW SHIT)....insta canopy resulting in several broken line on a newer canopy is not usually a manufacturing fault.... Here we go ......OK skippy..your post irked me and I was in a odd mood...as I normally try to refrain from posting my NEWB opinions to topical forums...(try and odd mood...well odd mood generally wins ) ...........your statement to Grue... Quotesend it back and get a new canopy would be the first thing or at least get your money back off them. Impressed me as you saying that it was the canopys fault.....hence ...blame who ever made it....pass the buck....hell why didnt you say to sue there asses for the horrible experiance....he could have died!!!!.....hell this boogie sucks..its not what was advertised... I am sorry if I came across harshly before and now....but man...stop whinning....we bring this shit on ourselves...wether a super hard opening(and I will bet most highly experianced jumpers agree that slammer openings are usually to be blammed on packing errors) or dissapointment in a boogie....it is always up to the jumper to be responsible for him/herself......stop passing the damn buck ... QuoteDon't say i am too quick to judge and then make your own presumptions. I work in a gear store and when things like this happen you sen it back to the manufacturer to look at it and investigate why this happened. Not to shift blame but why this happened. I did qualify my presumptions with my NEWB and I KNOW SHIT disclaimer..... You work in a gear store???....BTW what ever happened to that school you were promoting then not promoting??.....any chance I can get a deal on something from ya Sending the canopy back to the manufacture to determine what happened is always a good course of action...but you initial statement seemed to lay blame and not look for answers ...hence my snarky responce to you I will digress with a Question to the masses....... What is the #1 cause of hard openings? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #48 July 7, 2006 What is the #1 cause of hard openings? *** Deployment. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #49 July 7, 2006 QuoteA coated variant is used on HiPer's canopies (Nitro, Blade). It's black instead of the usual tan-colored line. Minor point, but I believe the Black HMA/Technora used by HiPer is impregnated durring the weaving process, not coated like the SkyWorks HMA/Technora.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #50 July 7, 2006 QuoteWell, after a cursory examination, I don't see anything the lines appear to have hung on. As noted in the above post, the line broke at the softlink, since my canopy is uncascaded. OK. As I said before, I don't have the equipment in front of me. I did not know that the canopy is non "cascaded" (actually it is (at the connecter links)). But the rational still stands: It has all of the hallmarks of a line hang up. Just exactly where and when (a line hang up) is/ was is cause is for further investigation. That, I believe is the place to start for any meaningfull answers to your questions about why it self destructed upon opening. I've seen it happen on many canopies (mine included, Sabre 1) and most are attributable to packing. Hope it all works out for you. BTW George Galloway is a straight up guy, I've delt with him on many occasions on various matters and he has always done the right thing. Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
