I thought only GA pilots f'd up like this

[diverdriver 6]

One person has claimed that the aicraft in question was taken to the hangar. It was put on jacks. And the same problem was replicated the first time. Down three green and no gear movement. Kinda scary really. Damn glad that something didn't sit right with the crew and they decided to initiate the go-around just as they were about to touchdown.

All jungle jet drivers are probably sitting a bit uneasy over this one. Hope they find the issue really quick.

Chris Schindler
www.diverdriver.com
ATP/D-19012
FB #4125

[Rookie120 0]

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But if the EGPWS receives gear condition input from the gear lever position and not from the prox switches on each gear leg, you wouldn't get an alert if the lever was in the "down" position, even if the gear was not actually down. See post from Derekbox above.

If the gear ECU detected the gear handle down without the gear being down, I am almost sure you would get a "Gear Misconfig" message. I dont have a EMB manual in front of me to confirm that though. I cannot wait until the FDR and CVR tapes are released. Would love to see how things were set up. I just cannot see these pilots messing up that bad. I heard there was a shortage of pilots at the regional level but damn!

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Rookie120 0]

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One person has claimed that the aicraft in question was taken to the hangar. It was put on jacks. And the same problem was replicated the first time. Down three green and no gear movement.

I just read the same thing. Call avionics!

Diver- Wouldnt you have trouble slowing the thing down without the geard down? I know when I have flown a PA-24 the damn thing is almost impossible to slow down to with just the flaps. I dont have any jet stick exp so I have no idea how this thing flies.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[MF42 0]

I have very limited experience troubleshooting on the Embraer, but have personally seen a problem caused by non-standard installation of electrical components at the factory. Some genius added an in-line fuse to one wire and buried it in the middle of a bundle. That fuse didn't show up in any wiring diagrams, manuals, or maintenance log entries.

Who put it there? Why? How did they decide what size fuse... etc. No answers to any of those questions.

That airplane's entire system of manuals is a joke; it's needlessly complicated and an open invitation to errors. I won't be surprised at all to eventually learn this was caused by another "improvised" installation somewhere along the way.

Bigtime kudos to the crew. Good job.

Matt

[1969912 0]

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One person has claimed that the aicraft in question was taken to the hangar. It was put on jacks. And the same problem was replicated the first time. Down three green and no gear movement.

I just read the same thing. Call avionics!

Diver- Wouldnt you have trouble slowing the thing down without the geard down? I know when I have flown a PA-24 the damn thing is almost impossible to slow down to with just the flaps. I dont have any jet stick exp so I have no idea how this thing flies.

It seems like you'd feel, and maybe even hear the disrupted airflow and vibration when the gear drops. I can always tell on airliners, sitting in back, of course.

Another thing: The prox switches and/or position transducers on the gear, gear lever, flap position, as well as airspeed, altitude, power setting, EGPWS ouput, etc. probably all feed into a computer(s), which then talk to the EICAS, displays, etc. A software glitch could really screw with things. This shit's way over my head.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

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If the gear ECU detected the gear handle down without the gear being down, I am almost sure you would get a "Gear Misconfig" message.

Is "Gear Misconfig" the same as "landing gear lever disagree", because they did report that.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[ACMESkydiver 0]

Well now isn't that a f*cked up thread title.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[1969912 0]

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Well now isn't that a f*cked up thread title.

Yep, and gets more f*cked up as evidence of an equipment failure builds. I heard that the dickhead who posted it tried to change the title, but it was too late. I don't believe it though.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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I heard that the dickhead who posted it tried to change the title, but it was too late. I don't believe it though.

You're all right, I don't care what jump pilots say about ya.

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[1969912 0]

If I recall correctly, ~80-100 gear-up landings occur each year in GA aircraft that are attributable solely to the pilot's "failure to extend..", "indvertent retraction..", or "failure to confirm..". That's way too many. I know a guy that bought a really nice Cessna 210, and hired his CFI to fly it to his local airport. The CFI owned a 210 and was very current. Guess what? He bellied it in right in front of my friend! Checklists, Checklists, Checklists.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[ACMESkydiver 0]

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If I recall correctly, ~80-100 gear-up landings occur each year in GA aircraft that are attributable solely to the pilot's "failure to extend..", "indvertent retraction..", or "failure to confirm..". That's way too many.

Bring that up to your pilot next jump. I'm sure he or she will appreciate the heads up [snicker] .

~Jaye
Do not believe that possibly you can escape the reward of your action.

[Rookie120 0]

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Is "Gear Misconfig" the same as "landing gear lever disagree", because they did report that.

Might be, I dont know what the ERJ has displayed exactly.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Beerlight 0]

At every Air Force military base (and maybe other services too) that I flew into, one of the last things the tower controller would say just before clearing you to land was, "Check gear down and locked".

I absolutely loved the reminder. You do not see that at a civilian facility. It's not perfect, but I would like to think it caused several pilots to extend their gear because it was missed for some reason or another.

[Rookie120 0]

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I absolutely loved the reminder. You do not see that at a civilian facility. It's not perfect, but I would like to think it caused several pilots to extend their gear because it was missed for some reason or another.

Come listen to Newark approach and tell me when they have time to remind the pilots to do there job. They have there hands full as it is.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Beerlight 0]

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Come listen to Newark approach and tell me when they have time to remind the pilots to do there job. They have there hands full as it is.

and that's exactly the reason I believe civilian aerodromes do not do that..... Although I've been in the pattern with 2 C-5's, 5 T-38's (we fly downwind at 300kts, and 2 Cessna 172's, and they still had time to say it.....

[Rookie120 0]

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Although I've been in the pattern with 2 C-5's, 5 T-38's (we fly downwind at 300kts, and 2 Cessna 172's, and they still had time to say it.....

Now imagine about another 60 getting ready to call for clearance and you have Newark. I was out on the run pad this morning with one of our birds listening and it just blows me away how they keep up with that much movement. Hell just listening to "Ground" is a trip to hear.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[1969912 0]

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At every Air Force military base (and maybe other services too) that I flew into, one of the last things the tower controller would say just before clearing you to land was, "Check gear down and locked".

I absolutely loved the reminder. You do not see that at a civilian facility. It's not perfect, but I would like to think it caused several pilots to extend their gear because it was missed for some reason or another.

I'd bet that the only reasons that there are so many gear-up landings in GA aircraft, are 1) They are typically operated with one pilot, and 2) They don't have the warning systems that other aircraft have. It has nothing to do with training, skill, or professionalism. Anyone can get caught up in other problems or tasks during approach, or just plain screw up.

If airliners were all operated with a single pilot, and without GPWS, etc., the gear-up landing rate per X number of approaches would likely be very similar to that of GA planes.

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[Rookie120 0]

Has anyone heard any updates on this as to what went wrong? My contact at American Eagle has been out of town so I have no inside info.

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[1969912 0]

There's a thread here http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3473137/#menu9, I have not had time to look at it in a while. To see the lates post, you have to click a button on the las visible post when you open the page.


Is it fixed?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[airtwardo 7]

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There's a thread here http://www.airliners.net/...main/3473137/#menu26 I have not had time to look at it in a while. To see the lates post, you have to click a button on the las visible post when you open the page.

It says:
Sorry pal, but you seem to be lost. The page you requested does not exist.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[1969912 0]

Try this:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/3473137/

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

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Has anyone heard any updates on this as to what went wrong? My contact at American Eagle has been out of town so I have no inside info.

This discussion thread is much more active than the one at airliners.net:


http://www.airdisaster.com/forums/showthread.php?t=85094&page=1&pp=25

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[1969912 0]

Interesting:

NTSB Advisory
National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594
June 29, 2007

NTSB INVESTIGATING LANDING GEAR MALFUNCTION

Washington, DC -- The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating an incident in Boston that occurred on June 20, 2007, in which an American Eagle Embraer ERJ-135 regional jet briefly touched down on the runway without the landing gear extended before initiating a go-around and completing a second landing attempt.

None of the 37 passengers or 3 crewmembers was injured. The aircraft sustained minor damage. The event is being investigated as an incident.

Prior to the first landing attempt in which the gear was not extended, the crew stated that the three landing gear indicator lights were all green, indicating that the gear was down and locked. Shortly before touchdown they noticed a "landing gear lever disagree" message on a flight computer console.

After the jet contacted the runway, a go-around procedure was initiated. The crew extended the gear by following the emergency abnormal landing gear procedure, then flew by the control tower twice for a visual inspection to ensure the gear was down prior to the second landing attempt.

At this point in the investigation the following has been accomplished:

In an initial test, the incident aircraft was placed on jacks and investigators duplicated the in-flight situation: Three green lights in the cockpit indicated the gear was down and locked but none of the gear extended.

The cockpit voice recorder and flight data recorder were sent to the Safety Board's laboratory in Washington last week where the content of each is being evaluated.

Both members of the flight crew were interviewed this week.

An electronic component of the landing gear control system, made by Parker Aerospace, was bench tested this week at their facility in New York. The same unit, with small modifications, was then placed in a different airplane and the indications were once again duplicated.

Embraer issued a "Field Service Letter" late last week to all operators of the EMB-135, -140, and -145 models, reminding pilots to follow the checklist in the case of a "landing gear disagree" message.

The Federal Aviation Administration, Parker Aerospace, American Eagle and Embraer are working with the Safety Board as the investigation continues.

http://www.ntsb.gov/pressrel/2007/070629.htm

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG