Nutz 0
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i'm sure you may continue double stowing until the first time you get baglock...
Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?
Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?
Not to undermine anyone that told you that about double locking your locking stows, but that is not a good idea. This can end up in a bag lock situation. What would you prefer.....nice openings with potential of back lock..... or a quicker opening with less chance of a high speed mal?
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Controlled and Deliberate.....
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Controlled and Deliberate.....
I use the small bands.
If youve got enough band left to make a double stow, you can probably go to smaller bands.
Actually, on my first two locking stows I use the large bands. all other stows are small bands. It was a packer that did that one, and it helped reduce the amount of searching my Nitro did.
I also use short stows 3/4" to 1 1/4", but that was with uncoated HMA lines, on a recommendation from a canopy MFG.
But then again I never had an issue with poor openings on that canopy.
If youve got enough band left to make a double stow, you can probably go to smaller bands.
Actually, on my first two locking stows I use the large bands. all other stows are small bands. It was a packer that did that one, and it helped reduce the amount of searching my Nitro did.
I also use short stows 3/4" to 1 1/4", but that was with uncoated HMA lines, on a recommendation from a canopy MFG.
But then again I never had an issue with poor openings on that canopy.
Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865
Elisha 1
QuoteI use the small bands.
Actually, on my first two locking stows I use the large bands. all other stows are small bands.
Me too...except I have black "SkyBands" by Ralph Ponce.
Fast 0
I use all small bands on my Vectran lined crossfire 2.
As a very meticulus rigger has told me "Rubber bands and closing loops are not for ease of packing"
As a very meticulus rigger has told me "Rubber bands and closing loops are not for ease of packing"
~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka
Quotethe other guy (sparky?) was lucky that the main pin cover tore off his Wonderhog.
It was a Streamlite and the main was completely free packed, no bag at all. As I went through 1000 feet I fired the reserve. The reserve canopy bounced off the main 2 or 3 times and inflated. Had time to pull the main up between my legs and get turned into the wind. Reserve canopy was a diaper deployed R-4 Performer, 26' conical.
But it can happen when using a d-bag. Just happen to a jumper in Texas last year.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
BIGUN 1,357
Derek (HooknSwoop) has an article recommending against double stows. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=50
I'll ask him to expand on "why" more.
I'll ask him to expand on "why" more.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.
Cloudi 0
QuoteNot to undermine anyone that told you that about double locking your locking stows, but that is not a good idea. This can end up in a bag lock situation. What would you prefer.....nice openings with potential of back lock..... or a quicker opening with less chance of a high speed mal?
Can anyone offer factual numbers of instances of bag locks in comparison to line dumps (overall &/or per method)? I think this has been long debated and I, for one, would like some evidence that my double-stowing is going to cause bag lock.
So far, the closest I have come to a bag lock was a pitifully weak throw. I've never had a canopy not want to come out of the bag (they sure don't want to go in the bag!).
That doesn't mean it won't happen during a normal throw, but it just hasn't been my experience.
Of course, I'm pretty inexperienced, so I'm open to evidence toward either side of the debate.
Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.
Yeah. I wouldn't worry about it. There aren't any real numbers on this. Keep double wrapping the locking stows.
Practice up your EP's for a bag lock. It's really easy. You'll feel the bag come off your back and when you don't feel opening shock you'll already know you have a bag lock. Look up and confirm bag lock, Cut-away and goto reserve. Don't waste time in a high speed malfunction doinking with the main.
Remember to do practice flares under your reserve.
If you have a bag lock, you'll probably decide to stop double wrapping the locking stows.
Practice up your EP's for a bag lock. It's really easy. You'll feel the bag come off your back and when you don't feel opening shock you'll already know you have a bag lock. Look up and confirm bag lock, Cut-away and goto reserve. Don't waste time in a high speed malfunction doinking with the main.
Remember to do practice flares under your reserve.
If you have a bag lock, you'll probably decide to stop double wrapping the locking stows.
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken
Ken
Cloudi 0
QuoteRemember to do practice flares under your reserve.
The most valuable piece of information from your post. I've already flown my reserve, so I know what to expect, but it's a good reminder.
As for practicing my EP's and being ready...baby, I'm always ready!
I practice my EP's on the ground, on every ride up, and I check my handles often while under a good flying main.
I'm ALL about survival.
I have no fear from double-stowing, just wondered if there were any "numbers" to go along with all the "don't do that!" advice. 
Edit: Thanks for your post. It is very helpful.
Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.
Sorry, Kim. I was responding to the original poster.
Maybe you could ask one of your friends from work if they have any numbers on this issue.
Maybe Rags has some thoughts on double wrapping locking stows?
"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken
Ken
Cloudi 0
I'm in Marketing. Rags doesn't talk about skydiving with us, he just wants t-shirts. 
And...numbers? We don't need no stinking numbers!
In all seriousness, though, I get conflicting advice, even from work. Some think small rubber bands are the shi-at and others think double stowing with large rubber bands is the way to go. Me, I just take all advice, use common sense, and make my own decision. I find large rubber bands much easier to work with (I have big, banana fingers) and I can steal them from Tour whenever I need more.
Just 'cause we work at PD doesn't mean they "tell" us anything.
Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.
And...numbers? We don't need no stinking numbers!
In all seriousness, though, I get conflicting advice, even from work. Some think small rubber bands are the shi-at and others think double stowing with large rubber bands is the way to go. Me, I just take all advice, use common sense, and make my own decision. I find large rubber bands much easier to work with (I have big, banana fingers) and I can steal them from Tour whenever I need more.
Just 'cause we work at PD doesn't mean they "tell" us anything.
Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.
Cloudi 0
To the OP:
I'm glad you found the method* that works best for you. THAT's what matters!
See you in the skies sometime soon, girl! You and I still need to do our beach jumps!
*disclaimer...I am a big fan of the double-stow method. It hasn't done me wrong so far, but I sitll have a lot to learn!
Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.
I'm glad you found the method* that works best for you. THAT's what matters!
See you in the skies sometime soon, girl! You and I still need to do our beach jumps!
*disclaimer...I am a big fan of the double-stow method. It hasn't done me wrong so far, but I sitll have a lot to learn!
Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.
Quotei'm sure you may continue double stowing until the first time you get baglock...
Don't those rubber bands just break in case of possible baglock?
* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *
Thanks chicka!! I'll be in deland tomorrow (saturday) if you want to make some jumps together!! There is also a pig roast going on I think. But yea! I hope you have a great day!
PMS #449 TPM #80 Muff Brother #3860
SCR #14705 Dirty Sanchez #233
PMS #449 TPM #80 Muff Brother #3860
SCR #14705 Dirty Sanchez #233
airgord 1
I've never had a problem in 5 years double stowing locking stows and using long bands.
Hooknswoop 19
Double-wrapping rubber bands make them tighter and more difficult for the lines to come out. Make it too difficult for the lines to come out of the stows and they won't come out, leaving you with a bag-lock malfunction. My one and only bag-lock malfunction was with a tandem and was caused by double wrapping the rubber bands (not tandem bands either).I have deployed some different canopies using a reserve free-bag system without changing how the canopy opened. I strongly believe that there are much better ways to get a canopy to open slower than risking a bag-lock by double wrapping the rubber bands. I also thinnk that given the choice between a harder opening and a bag-lock, I would prefer the harder opening. If you need to make the stows tighter because the bag is being de-accelerated too quickly, maybe your PC is too large. Maybe you are falling too fast when you deploy. Maybe a different sized slider, a domed slider, or a pocket on the slider is what is needed to slow down the opening. As long as the lines are released in order and the locking stows remain in place until all other stows are released, the lines stows are fine and the problem/fix lay else where in the system. I think that double wrapping treats the symptons and not the disease and can cause a bag-lock.
I think that most rogue hard openings are caused by one of two things, 1) not keeping the slider grommets against the slider stops while packing (easily fixed), and/or 2) falling too fast while deploying.
I used to be able to get very soft openings by deploying in a very flat track. I would deploy immediately after a track, and could feel my self begin to accelerate as I went into a neutral body position from a flat track. Most people increase their fall rate during a track instead of decreasing it. Then they must slow down before deploying. A proper track will have a slower all-rate than a neutral body position. Putting on the brakes to stop the foward speed and deploying before re-accelerating always gave me the softest openings.
Derek
I think that most rogue hard openings are caused by one of two things, 1) not keeping the slider grommets against the slider stops while packing (easily fixed), and/or 2) falling too fast while deploying.
I used to be able to get very soft openings by deploying in a very flat track. I would deploy immediately after a track, and could feel my self begin to accelerate as I went into a neutral body position from a flat track. Most people increase their fall rate during a track instead of decreasing it. Then they must slow down before deploying. A proper track will have a slower all-rate than a neutral body position. Putting on the brakes to stop the foward speed and deploying before re-accelerating always gave me the softest openings.
Derek
BIGUN 1,357
Thanks Derek. Your input is always appreciated.
Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.
QuoteI know a guy that claims not stowing anything (apart from the first two or so) gives him better openings.
That said, he spends about as long s-folding his lines into the bottom of the packing tray as i do stowing mine 'properly'.
Why doesn't he just purchase a main D-Bag with 2 gromets/stowes and a "pouch" in it (or have someone make one for him) to stow the remaining suspension line?? Works just fine.
brabzzz 0
I suppose he's been happy/lucky with his openings has therefore never considered it! I'll mention it to him though.
Lol, wasn't one of the major container manufacturers toying with the idea but decided it wasn't sufficiently idiot proof?
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Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com
Lol, wasn't one of the major container manufacturers toying with the idea but decided it wasn't sufficiently idiot proof?
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Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club
www.skydivebristoluni.com
"Don't! Get! Eliminated!"
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