Found a packing trick

[blitzkrieg 0]

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What would you prefer.....nice openings with potential of back lock..... or a quicker opening with less chance of a high speed mal?

neither. but that's why i jump two of the best/softest opening canopies in production. i also occasionally double stow if it is necessary to achieve the correct amount of tension. rubber bands break and i'm definitely not worried about a bag lock. in fact i believe (possibley naive) that it is impossible from the combination of a rubber band and HMA lines alone.

[ZigZagMarquis 9]

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Lol, wasn't one of the major container manufacturers toying with the idea but decided it wasn't sufficiently idiot proof?

Velocity Sports / Infinity makes them for their Main D-Bags.

Who say's containers / skydiving / skydiving equipment is idiot proof??

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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sufficiently idiot proof?

thats not a help, then they will just make better idiots

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Cloudi 0]

It was great seeing you today! Did you get some of Rusty's meat?

Nice f**king job on that jump today! I posted here about what a great job you did!

I can't believe we both packed our canopies that way and LIVED! Ha, ha!

Kim
Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason.

[georgerussia 0]

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Double-wrapping rubber bands make them tighter and more difficult for the lines to come out. Make it too difficult for the lines to come out of the stows and they won't come out, leaving you with a bag-lock malfunction.

Is bag lock possible in a situation when the pull force of a pilot chute excess the force need to break a rubber band? Were there any malfunctions which could be clearly traced to a modern rubber band used on sport systems, which did not broke?
I ask this because my rigger said that double stows are ok, as the pull force of a pilot chute is enough to break the rubber band.

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I also thinnk that given the choice between a harder opening and a bag-lock, I would prefer the harder opening.

Why? Hard openings itself have broken and killed the people. Bag locks itself have not.

* Don't pray for me if you wanna help - just send me a check. *

[Hooknswoop 19]

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Is bag lock possible in a situation when the pull force of a pilot chute excess the force need to break a rubber band?

Yes, it happened to me. The drogue wasn't just pulling on one rubber band, but 2. The stow that failed to release as well as the next one. On the ground, I had someone hold the risers and I pulled on the drogue. The bag tilted to one side, and try as I might, I couldn't get the stow to release or break.

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Why? Hard openings itself have broken and killed the people. Bag locks itself have not.

I said harder opening, not as in hard enough to break me or the canopy. Also, reserve terminal openings tend to be very hard, which is what you are going to get after bag lock mal, exactly what you are trying to avoid.

Are double-wrapping rubber bands death? No, but I don't think it is a good idea and a poor solution to the problem and can crreate a worse problem than brisk openings. There are much better ways to get a canopy to open nicely.

If double wrapping rubber bands was necessary to get a canopy to open nice, then those canopies I deployed with only locking stows would have opened hard. They didn't. If double wrapping rubber bands makes a canopy that opens hard open soft, then you have other problems, not loose stows.

I can get any canopy to open soft without double wrapping the rubber bands.

Derek

[teason 0]

I had a set of gear that had the lines stoe on the outer sides of the bag (well we almost all diid back then). Single stoe with small line bights caused some stoes to come off and resulted in chaotic out of sequence deployment. I had to do big stoes and make sure the elastics were tighter than snot or else unpredictable things happened on opening.

I made myself a bag with balanced stoes and now with the same canopy, openings are beautifully predictable with very low tension on the elastics.

Just an annecdote to say the are there to keep the lines in place, not to speed up or slow down opening directly. Yes, it would reduce snatch but probably only by a small degree. By themselves, they are not the cure for hard openings.

As for the bag lock, a double stoed 40lbs elastic vs a pilotchute, the pilotchute will win (unless the PC is way beyond it's service life). Double stoed elestics were a contributing factor in a baglock a while back. The feeling was that eventhough the PC wasn't fully cocked when the gear was packed, it wouldn't have hung up on the elastics if they hadn't been double stoed. Other than that, I've never heard of a good PC not being able to break and elastic band. The baglocks I've seen have involved big line stoes that loop around each other. On deployment, the cinch around another stoe and lock in place.

Just my perspective

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[bob.dino 1]

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What about just using small (shorter) rubber bands?

...and if they're not available, you can pass the rubber-band through the d-bag attachment point twice. In effect you're double-stowing on the bag, shortening the excess so it grips your lines appropriately.

[ernokaikkonen 0]

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Is bag lock possible in a situation when the pull force of a pilot chute excess the force need to break a rubber band? Were there any malfunctions which could be clearly traced to a modern rubber band used on sport systems, which did not broke?

I chopped one. I double wrapped a locking stow even though it had been made clear to me that doing that would be a bad idea. The rubber band did break - eventually. By that time the bag had been spinning at the end of the lines for a second or two and the canopy that came out was definitely not "square, symmetrical and steerable". I don't double wrap locking stows, but I will double wrap non-locking stows if small rubbler bands are not available.

[breadhead 0]

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Is bag lock possible in a situation when the pull force of a pilot chute excess the force need to break a rubber band?

Yes, I've witnessed one such instance first hand.

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Were there any malfunctions which could be clearly traced to a modern rubber band used on sport systems, which did not broke?

Yes.

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I ask this because my rigger said that double stows are ok, as the pull force of a pilot chute is enough to break the rubber band.

That's what I believed too ... until the facts proved me wrong.

[rigger_john 0]

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Is bag lock possible in a situation when the pull force of a pilot chute excess the force need to break a rubber band?

Yes, I've witnessed one such instance first hand.

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Were there any malfunctions which could be clearly traced to a modern rubber band used on sport systems, which did not broke?

Yes.

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I ask this because my rigger said that double stows are ok, as the pull force of a pilot chute is enough to break the rubber band.

That's what I believed too ... until the facts proved me wrong.

I hate to disagree, .... Actualy I don't I'm happy to disagree, we have discussed this several times on DZ.com and I still stand by the statment I made here

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1738144#1738144

I hear a lot of anecdotal evidence but nobody has given a single case where double stowing caused a mal beyoned any doubt.

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I hear a lot of anecdotal evidence but nobody has given a single case where double stowing caused a mal beyoned any doubt.

You have been given several, but like someone else from the other thread, refuse to believe it.

From the other thread about what RWS says:

"Double-stowing in the sport world with 54' drogues will most likely yield a bag-lock."

If you won't believe me and others that have actually had a bag lock caused by double stowing, listen to RWS.

There is no reason to double wrap rubber bands, and it can cause line twists and bag locks.

Derek

[Buried 0]

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i'm sure you may continue double stowing until the first time you get baglock...

Don't those rubber bands just break in case of possible baglock?

yes, ideally, but it could depend on the force exerted on the bands and whichever stage of the opening.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[Buried 0]

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I've never had a problem in 5 years double stowing locking stows and using long bands.

i'm not saying that it will happen, but the changes that it will increase by doing so. It can depend on a few factors: length of lines through the bands, type of lines, speed of openings, etc.. for myself deploying at subterminal (ws flying) would exibit less force on the system than terminal or slowing down from a FF

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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I've never had a problem in 5 years double stowing locking stows and using long bands.

and from what it appears she had a problem this past weekend that some say may be because of how she stows. Granted people on these forums only will listen to what they want and I hope she isnt like that and will reconsider her new method , maybe talk in person to a rigger she trusts and possibly try smaller rubber bands. Id much rather have a slighty harder opening then what happened to her this weekend

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[rigger_john 0]

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You have been given several, but like someone else from the other thread, refuse to believe it.

No I have been told by several people that in thier opinion a baglock was caused by double stowing

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From the other thread about what RWS says:

"Double-stowing in the sport world with 54' drogues will most likely yield a bag-lock."

So are you seriously saying a 54" drogues properly used and deployed can't snap a doubled stowed band and nothing else was wrong with the system, and if IRC in your case didn't even use tandem bands?

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There is no reason to double wrap rubber bands, and it can cause line twists

Agreed

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and bag locks.

I accept you belive this, and I hope you can accept that in every cutaway I ever seen I have been able to show that there was somthing more to it, normaly worn PC or assymetrical deployment

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

[Hooknswoop 19]

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So are you seriously saying a 54" drogues properly used and deployed can't snap a doubled stowed band and nothing else was wrong with the system

RWS is saying that and they built the system. I am saying that it happened to me.

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I accept you belive this, and I hope you can accept that in every cutaway I ever seen I have been able to show that there was somthing more to it, normaly worn PC or assymetrical deployment

There was nothing wrong with the Vector tandem I was jumping and the bag lock was caused by double stowing, which I was able to demonstrate/replicate on the ground after the jump.

Derek

[tetra316 0]

And what if the small bands are still too loose? I was told by pd reps that the bands should be tight enough that you can lift the bag off the floor by your lines and not have the stows come undone. Single stowing with small bands still leaves the lines too loose.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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the bands should be tight enough that you can lift the bag off the floor by your lines and not have the stows come undone.

I'm not sure if I follow th logic behind that advice since largr canopies weight more than smaller canopies, but why would a larger canopy need tighterr stows given the same size PC, than a smaller canopy?

Either way, you can tighten rubber bands by wrapping them around the d-bag attachment point again to make them smaller. It is kind of like installing them twice on the d-bag.

Also, if the lines needed to be stowed that tight, why do reseerve free-bags work? Why do tail pockets still work at terminal?

As long as the lines are released in an orderly fashion and the bag remains shut until all the lines are out, then the opening will be fine. If it isn't thenyou have other problems, deployment speed, pilot chute, slider, etc.

Derek

[tetra316 0]

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the bands should be tight enough that you can lift the bag off the floor by your lines and not have the stows come undone.

Also, if the lines needed to be stowed that tight, why do reseerve free-bags work? Why do tail pockets still work at terminal?

Derek

I was just following the advice of some very experienced reps. My understanding was that you want the line stows tight enough that they will not all release at once and being able to pick them up by the lines and not releasing the stows is a way to ensure that. of course if you were to pull with even a bit of pressure they will come undone, the point was that they won't come undone by just holding the bag up. I believe it was Vlad and Kolla who gave me the advice at the chicks rock boogie last year when I was demoing some canopies. By the way never though about double wrapping the bands through the attachment points then only single stowing. Will have to try that.

[Hooknswoop 19]

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I was just following the advice of some very experienced reps.

Think through all advice, don't just follow it because of the source. Ask why.

The locking stows are very important. If they release before line stretch, that is bag strip and it allows the begin inflating before line stretch, which is very bad.

The rest of the stows aren't that important, again, look at reserve free bags or the 'no-stow' bags out there. They ensure an orderaly deployment, preventing slack line from wrapping around each other or main flaps. They keep the lines in the small coloumn of air above the jumper where they should be and not splayed out all over the place.

I once took some advice that was from a very experienced jumper/factoy rep without thinking it through for myself. It almost cost me my life. Not long after that, the advice I was given was no longer being given out by the rep.

Lifting the d-bag by the line as a test if they are tight nough doesn't allow for large and small canopies. Smaller canopies would pass the test with looser stows, while larger canopies would require much tighter stows to pass.

Derek

[tetra316 0]

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Think through all advice, don't just follow it because of the source. Ask why.

I have and it makes perfect sense to me considering I do jump a 120 and not a student size canopy. Also I have tried single stowing and the canopy opens much too quickly giving a very hard opening (thanks for the pack job stu) making me think bag strip is a possibility. That's also why I double stow. Once in a while I still get a fast opening even double stowing. You did make me think the advice of being able to pick up my bag with the stows was more directed to me specifically then a general rule of thumb due the size of my canopy. You're right you wouldn't want to be able to pick up student deployment bags by the lines.

[quinny 0]

I have been working in a lot of dzs lately, some better than others!I have seen so many techniques and so many arguments its unreal!!! I put it to two of my most trusted friends, Rigger Rob and Wierd Wayne(dont know his dz.com name)to put thier 2 cents in regarding double stows.
I know that all of the busy full time dzs I have worked at they double stow. All of the not busy dzs I have worked at they do ........a variety of strange things
Anyway, I have double stowed approx 6000 student mantas and skymasters(single stow 1st two and double stow all others. On my stiletto I single stow 1st two and double everything else. So far no dramas!!
Rob and Wierd Wayne what do you think???Quinny

[Hooknswoop 19]

Derek

[riggerrob 643]

I have double-stowed thousands of rubber bands - on tandems and student gear and my Stiletto - and don't see what the fuss is all about.