First impressions of the Spectre 135 - Interesting Openings

[proswooper 2]

Apology accepted. just couldnt resist having a dig at my buddy

just to comment on the PD wingloading chart. when you get into the smaller sized canopies ten pounds does make a far greater impression on the flight characteristics than if you were on a larger canopy for the simple reason that there is less material above your head. What drives a canopy is the weight underneith it and knowing a few of the PD folks and being a big fan of the company i know they tend towards the conservative side for canopy recomendation as they should.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Ok, that's pretty much what I was looking for, that they are fairly conservative in that respect. I do realize that smaller canopies will be affected more but it just struck me as odd that they would be affected that much more.

135 - 15 lbs from Novice to Expert
150 - 60 lbs from novice to expert

Nonetheless, cool!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[pilotdave 0]

I'm not a big believer that 15 lbs on a spectre 135 makes THAT much of a difference, but they have to draw the line somewhere and they have to be very conservative to cover their asses.

The numbers are the same for the Sabre2 135, which I load at about 1.1 (and started on it around 1.05 at about 150 jumps). A 12-lb weight vest doesn't affect the canopy enough for me to feel a difference. I'm sure it flies a little faster and turns a little faster, but not enough for me to notice.

I PMed you a while back about canopy choices... I was in the same boat as you. My instructors recommended a 135 to me when I was looking for a rig at 40 jumps. I went with an F111 150 instead (after reading some good advice on the internet, and happened to have the 150 nearly fall in my lap). Put ~100 jumps on the 150 and downsized to a sabre2 135. I'm pretty sure I would have survived if I skipped those jumps on the 150, but whats the rush? After 600+ jumps on the 135, I still have no interest in going any smaller.

I definitely recommend going big. My opinion is that it's impossible to have too big a canopy. Ok, I've jumped a manta 288 loaded at something like 0.45... that's too freaking big.

The biggest difference between a sabre2 150 and a spectre 135 is just how much faster things happen. At your wingloading, the spectre isn't exactly radical. You're not going to dive at the ground if your toggles are a tiny bit uneven when you flare. It's not as unforgiving as maybe some people that haven't jumped a spectre 135 at under 1.1 wingloading assume it might be. But it flies forward fast and descends fast. You have less time to make decisions. You have to plan farther ahead. You have to think faster. If you put yourself in a bad position, you're going to hit the ground harder. And you're much more likely to find yourself in a bad position over your next 100 jumps than after you gain more experience. Make the mistakes on a 150...

Dave

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey,

Yes I remember you PMing me. That spawned from another post of mine that turned into this same thing. This thread has given me alot of good advice and things to consider though.

It's nice to have real world experience as well, so thanks for that. You're basically in my boat exactly as for size and whatnot, and you've had the oppurtunity to experience what I'm going through. My biggest issue is who to believe and trust. I have 100% trust in my peers and instructors, and no one seems terribly concerned about me on a 135. I mean I have gotten a few sessions about being cautious, take it easy, don't turn low, try this up high etc. But then I come on here and get the complete opposite saying that "there's no way anyone with under 50 jumps should be on a 135 no matter what w/l". Its really confusing, I could see if my instructors didn't recommend me jumping it, but said it should be alright, and I came here and everyone had the same feeling, but it's 2 completely different worlds.

Thanks
CHris

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[ntacfreefly 0]

Your confusion is totally understandable. Unfortunately the sport has a serious lack of knowledge as a whole when it comes to canopy flight. Until recently such a thing as a canopy course wasn't even available (even scoffed at). So, we have a bunch of experienced skydivers who are in 1 of 3 positions:

1) They're 'old school' and don't want any canopy help.
2) They are open to new techniques but haven't had the training or exposure to new teaching ideas and styles.
3) Are pro-active in learning more about what they are teaching, including canopy flight.

Most of the time people fall in 1 and 2. So, instead they end up propagating bad ideas or knowledge cause "that's how it's been done for a long time" or they simply don't know any better.

I see recommendations like you were given regularly. Unfortunately the student doesn't know any better and follows their instructors advice. It's a bit of quandary because, as a student, you generally SHOULD follow instructors advice. The problem is there's a big difference between someone who understands good skydiving principals, and good canopy pilot who understands the same. Both are different niches but, IMO, as an instructor it is your RESPONSIBILITY to educate yourself on issues you are teaching to students. Unfortunately not many do.

Anyway, I know it doesn't give you any answers on who to follow, but hopefully it explains the disconnect you are seeing in advice.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I just find it hard to believe that the people I'm getting advice from are not current or current on canopy piloting or safety.

The instructors have demo(Pro) ratings and regularly do demo's in "tight" spaces, and I mean tight. The DZO is also an accuracy champ, there are a few base jumpers, swoopers and freeflyers. The instructors almost all have over 2k jumps and are very current. They are all open and willing to share ideas, I never get brushed off when I have questions. I can't see them putting me under something that they don't find safe. I agree all this means nothing as far as their outlook on safety, but I highly doubt that they want the publicity of and injury/death on their hands.

From previous threads where this same issue came up and I talked to my instructors asking them flat out "Do you think a 135 is a bit agressive?). They say yes, but based on your landings up to this point you'll be fine. So I took that as I was doing well, and they are comfortable that my skill will be sufficient to run this agressive canopy. If I hadn't landed every landing standing up or landed on target on nearly every landing up to now, it might be a different story.

I'm going to present it to them again and try and pry a little more to see what they might say.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[NWFlyer 2]

Chris, I'm not going to comment on your canopy choice; you've had plenty of people with way more expertise than me already talk through the issues. But what I will share is something I've noticed with people who are very experienced at something (for the sake of this example, we'll talk skydiving, but really, this fits with all types of expertise):

1) It's been a long time since they were in your shoes. They forget what it was like to be brand new and how little you know back then. It's like an adult trying to teach a 16 year old to drive and wondering why he or she gets flustered at a car on the opposite end of the parking lot. You forget how much sensory overload there is when you're first learning something complex (like driving or skydiving) and how easily you can end up in trouble from things that wouldn't even faze someone with experience.

2) They made choices themselves simliar to the ones that you're making, and they did fine. So they project that out and say "Yep, you'll probably be fine too as long as you're careful." Except that they may have been "fine" only by stroke of luck. A sample size of one isn't statistically valid, but often we project our own experience on other people anyway.

Not saying this is necessarily the case with your instructors, but you'll see it a lot with people who try to give you advice in this sport. They can and often are very bright, skilled, experienced, thoughtful, caring people who are geuinely trying to help, but these types of filters can affect the type of information they give you.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[pilotdave 0]

Let me just clarify myself...

I don't think your instructors are necessarily WRONG in their suggestion. It's aggressive, but not insane, and not in accordance with the suggestions from the manufacturer or top canopy coaches (or maybe that does make it insane).

You can choose to take the advice of your instructors, but this is a case where you can also choose to go bigger. It's never wrong to go with a bigger canopy than recommended. They recommended the smallest you can go. There is no danger in ignoring their advice and being more conservative. You don't have to ask your instructors for permission to go bigger... it's a choice only you can make.

Dave

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I agree, I think you're right. The 135 was surely a minimum, but if anyone said my instructors were wrong, I disagree. I know you didn't say that either, but it was implied more than once.

As far as upsizing goes, I would gladly do it, but funds right now are tight and I'm not thinking anyone is going to be willing to trade me a canopy or anything. I would gladly jump a Sabre 2 150 for the next 1000 jumps, but I can't buy one, and I dont want one that's got 900 jupms on it already. The gear I bought is basically brand new, container has 55 jumps, Spectre has 35, and the reserve has 0. That makes me feel safe, and that's where my comfort is. I don't want gear fear jumping a "WELL" used canopy. I also don't want to be putting myself at greater risk by jumping this small canopy.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[NWFlyer 2]

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I'm not thinking anyone is going to be willing to trade me a canopy or anything. I would gladly jump a Sabre 2 150 for the next 1000 jumps

No, but if you do decide to go in this direction, you can sell the 135 and buy a 150. There's at least four Sabre2 150s listed in the classifieds within the last two weeks, all of which have under 200 jumps on them.

In a sport with an active used gear market, gear purchases are not irreversible decisions.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Believe me, I've seen them, and am considering them. I also need to find out if I can get a 150 into a Odyssey sized "OJK". I'm not sure what my canopy is worth in comparison to a 200 Jump Sabre 2 150.

My canopy was manufactured in Oct 2002 and has 35 jumps. Stock colours (purple, watermelon, yel, yel, yel, watermelon, purple). Lines are mint etc, it's essentially brand new.

Anyone have a guess?

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[pilotdave 0]

Trade ya for my PD150!

Dave

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I can consider it, but I'm not sure about F111. I wouldn't mind the Sabre2 because I've jumped it and loved it and it's flare. Only thing I didn't like was the end cell closures. I also like the Pilot when I jumped it, it was very snappy and also had a powerful flare, plus it had the most amazing openings EVER!

I just really want something that will last me a long time as I have no intentions of downsizing at any point. I chose the Spectre because it was a bit ahead of where I am, but I could "grow" into it and ride the shit out of it for a long long time, if not my whole time skydiving.

Plus, now that I know adding 7 lbs adds an expertise level, hell that canopy will last me forever with a simple weight belt, hehe.

Edit to add:
The Silhouette I jumped (50% F111), I liked, but everything felt mushy and the inputs were slow. It was a big canopy, 210, but still. I didn't care alot for the flare, especially after jumping the Pilot and Sabre2. It seemed very much like the Mantas, a student canopy. Maybe the slight taper of the pilot and sabre made the difference. I actually foud the pilot to have the greatest response of any of the canopies I've jumped yet. It felt very crisp and on rails.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Elisha 1]

Quote

I agree, I think you're right. The 135 was surely a minimum, but if anyone said my instructors were wrong, I disagree. I know you didn't say that either, but it was implied more than once.

As far as upsizing goes, I would gladly do it, but funds right now are tight and I'm not thinking anyone is going to be willing to trade me a canopy or anything. I would gladly jump a Sabre 2 150 for the next 1000 jumps, but I can't buy one, and I dont want one that's got 900 jupms on it already. The gear I bought is basically brand new, container has 55 jumps, Spectre has 35, and the reserve has 0. That makes me feel safe, and that's where my comfort is. I don't want gear fear jumping a "WELL" used canopy. I also don't want to be putting myself at greater risk by jumping this small canopy.

900 is nothing. My 15-yr old Sabre1-150 has probably 1200 is good for plenty more. Many of these modern ZP canopies can go for 3000 if taken care of.

[kallend 2,106]

Quote

Quote

...but I do understand alot about flight. I have been flying for many years and have been interested in flight since i was 10. I put 350 hours in a Cessna 337 last summer alone.

Regardless of what some people think (usually the ones that only quote from tables ), having this flying experience can make a real difference. I came from a hang glider background myself, and my canopy control was certainly better than my peers at the time.

I agree. There are many aspects of canopy flying that can be transferred from other aviation activities (reading a windsock, planning and flying a pattern, see and avoid, knowing to keep wings level at touchdown, no low turns, awareness of control sensitivity, awareness of altitude loss in turns, controlling a flare, identifying an incipient stall...).

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Fast 0]

Quote

Hey,

Yes I remember you PMing me. That spawned from another post of mine that turned into this same thing. This thread has given me alot of good advice and things to consider though.

It's nice to have real world experience as well, so thanks for that. You're basically in my boat exactly as for size and whatnot, and you've had the oppurtunity to experience what I'm going through. My biggest issue is who to believe and trust. I have 100% trust in my peers and instructors, and no one seems terribly concerned about me on a 135. I mean I have gotten a few sessions about being cautious, take it easy, don't turn low, try this up high etc. But then I come on here and get the complete opposite saying that "there's no way anyone with under 50 jumps should be on a 135 no matter what w/l". Its really confusing, I could see if my instructors didn't recommend me jumping it, but said it should be alright, and I came here and everyone had the same feeling, but it's 2 completely different worlds.

Thanks
CHris

Everyone on here is really conservative in thier recomendations. That has to do with not knowing who you are and how well you fly and in general just being conservative. The people on here don't even know your instructors. So they have no idea who is recomending what to you. You also don't know any of the people on here. I am not meaning to go against the trend, and I am not about to tell you jumping a 135 is smart. I am just trying to explain why you are having the confusion.

It is an aggressive choice, one you will probably survive, but it is more likely that you would survive if you chose the 150. You might even learn faster. Thats how these recomendations come about.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

That has to do with not knowing who you are and how well you fly and in general just being conservative.

It has more to do with seeing this same scenario played out over and over again. It gets really old reading about some "I can handle it" in the incident forum.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Fast 0]

Quote

Quote

That has to do with not knowing who you are and how well you fly and in general just being conservative.

It has more to do with seeing this same scenario played out over and over again. It gets really old reading about some "I can handle it" in the incident forum.

I don't disagree with you at all. That is the reason people are conservative. I think we are on the same page, but i could be wrong!

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[GrumpySmurf 0]

Dude,
In the end - it is a decision you have to make, and if in the end, the discussion here caused you to learn a little more, even better.

The instructors you have are top notch, I trained under them many a moon ago and if they said to me, "We feel you are capable of handling this canopy", I would give it serious weight as well.
Have fun and be safe.

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey Mark,

Nice to get that first hand advice. You confirmed what I already knew. I'm still going to present it to them and if they are still as confident as they were previously, I'll probably continue to jump the canopy. I'll just have to take extreme caution, and get as much canopy coaching as I can. I think that some people on here are thinking I'm trying to get on the smallest canopy I can so I can downsize quicker. That's completely inaccurate. I bought this canopy expecing to put 1000 jumps on it. I'm not interested in downsizing at all. I have no interest in swooping either. *My opinion here* but I think swooping is putting yourself at an extremely high risk that is un-necessary. I'm not sure the actual numbers but if no one was allowed to swoop, I bet the fatalities would be cut into very few per year. Only the true 'accidents' would constitute the fatalities. Now, I'm not going to go bashing swooping and try to stop it or anything, but you all know it's true.


* I'm not speaking at you Mark, I'm just ranting to the general public about swooping.

Thanks again
Chris!

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[bob.dino 1]

Quote

*My opinion here* but I think swooping is putting yourself at an extremely high risk that is un-necessary. I'm not sure the actual numbers but if no one was allowed to swoop, I bet the fatalities would be cut into very few per year. Only the true 'accidents' would constitute the fatalities. Now, I'm not going to go bashing swooping and try to stop it or anything, but you all know it's true.

If no-one was allowed skydive, then no-one would die skydiving .

[mjosparky 4]

Quote

If no-one was allowed skydive, then no-one would die skydiving

Dave, do you have any hard data to back that statement up?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Pendragon 1]

(not necessarily directed at the "in reply to" poster, but more of a general comment)

Give the guy a bit of a break. No-one here has seen him under the wing.

From Prof. Kallend

Quote

I agree. There are many aspects of canopy flying that can be transferred from other aviation activities (reading a windsock, planning and flying a pattern, see and avoid, knowing to keep wings level at touchdown, no low turns, awareness of control sensitivity, awareness of altitude loss in turns, controlling a flare, identifying an incipient stall...).

I highlighted that bit because this is the true crux of the issue. In this case it is not the wingloading in isolation that makes this a more aggressive choice for the beginner, but the level of control sensitivity

Given that Chris is, indeed, a very current light-aircraft pilot, this should be less of a problem.

Let's not continue to pigeon-hole people inappropriately. I'm sure Chris is receiving good advice from his instructors - or at least we can hope that

Canopy flying is a very important part of the sport from a safety aspect, and highly individual in terms of progression. I'm not sure that anyone can get a good, necessarily bespoke answer to their needs on an internet forum from a bunch of guys who have never seen the individual fly, land or know their background. That's not to say that the comments posted here haven't been important, but their relevance to any individual case can always be questioned.

--
BASE #1182
Muff #3573
PFI #52; UK WSI #13

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Agreed!

Life is a calculated risk. You can do things to lessen the risk, IE: Bigger parachute, no swooping, or no skydiving at all. In consideration of "life" in general, skydiving is putting you in a high risk situation. Skydiving is generally "safe" in the manner that malfunctions are not guaranteed, but it's still high risk that you can go in at any second. Wonder why they banned hook turns at most dz's... Swooping may come to that, possibly skydiving itself one day. Who knows.

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

Hey Richard,

Thanks for your opinion, I appreciate that. I don't feel like I've been pidgeon holed into upsizing. I really do love the opinions and advice I've recieved from this thread. I am very confident that I "can" fly this 135 very safely, but I have to consider how much risk I would be putting myself in by continuing to fly it this early. You guys are all right, why not upsize for now...then jump the 135. Given the same scenario, I'm sure I "could" safely fly a VX99 or something similar, would I? HELL NO. I feel confident/safe under the 135 and wasn't nearly as concerned as I am now from this thread. I just have a few choices to make and hopefully my choices do not put me in direct danger.

Chris

"When once you have tasted flight..."