OuterFocker1 0 #1 August 15, 2006 I know a bunch of people who jump stilettos and I hear mixed things about the openings. Most of them have pretty high wing loadings and jump stilettos that are much smaller than a 170. I recently found a stiletto 170 for sale and was wondering what kind of info was out there for this size Stiletto. My wing loading would be about 1:1, and I have 400+ jumps. I'm a pretty conservative canopy pilot. Any info would be helpful. Thanks!~ Melissa ~ "Life is too short to walk the same cautious path as everyone else." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #2 August 15, 2006 According to your profile, you currently jump a Spectre. I've been told they both have the same airfoil, but the planforms are dramatically different. Chalk and cheese - they're both solids What are you looking for in a canopy? Not to mention, demo it! Discuss how to fly and flare a Stiletto with an experienced canopy pilot who's flown both, and find out. You should be able to land it, @1.0, with 400 jumps. If you flare evenly.Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #3 August 15, 2006 I've been wanting to ask this for a while and this seems to be a good opportunity. Is there even a point to a low WL on a HP canopy? I mean, people usually have at least 1.4 or so on a canopy like a Stilleto...especially since you could easily load a Sabre2 or Spectre up to 1.5 or 1.6 within the mfg specs. The comparison I can think of is overpowering a sedan and what you can do driving with it vs just getting a sports car. If a V6 is fine with you in the sports sedan and the associated performance, then fine, but it is pointless to just drive sports car around at only the speed limit. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #4 August 15, 2006 Coming from a Spectre* (the super forgiving goddess of canopies ), you might want to get some jumps on a same-sized Sabre2 (or equivalent 9-cell canopy type) before venturing to a Stiletto. This will give you a chance to make sure you're ready for a more responsive canopy before going fully elliptical (9-cells are typically more responsive than 7-cells). If a canopy is responsive when you fly it, it's also responsive when you open (harness input) & when you land. A lightly loaded semi-elliptical 7-cell Spectre is very forgiving if you shift in the harness during deployment, a semi-elliptical 9-cell is less, a fully elliptical 9-cell is NOT. Also, the amount of input for turns and flare are completely different. Flare the Stiletto deep like you would your Spectre and you'll probably find yourself on your back because you stalled the canopy. I suggest you discuss this with the trusted, experienced instructors/canopy coaches at your DZ (which I'm sure you plan to anyway). If they feel comfortable with you trying one, PD has a demo program (ahem...) where you can try the canopy for a nominal fee. QuoteElisha - Is there even a point to a low WL on a HP canopy? Not everyone is in a hurry to downsize, but are looking for more performance. This would be an excellent reason for someone with the appropriate experience/skill level to go to HP. *This is assuming you have the majority of your jumps on this canopy type. Edit for spelling. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #5 August 16, 2006 Quote Not everyone is in a hurry to downsize, but are looking for more performance. Huh? Can you/someone explain? This doesn't make that much sense to me. I would think that it would turn faster. In the past several jumps, I've jumped (my former regular) Sabre1-150, Safire2-149, Pilot-132, Sabre2-135 (plus 12 lbs of lead for the RW jumps I was doing) and the Sabre1-120 I recently got for only $250. The Sabre2-135 (+ 12 lbs of lead) defintely felt like it had the best "performance" overall - felt I had to respect it the most on final, but the Pilot-132 had some REALLY fast turns when I buried a toggle - almost too fast. It felt more mundane though when landing, probably because of the flatter glide. So how would a Pilot loaded at 1.1 compared to a Stilletto loaded the same since both are trimmed rather flat and are tapered (even though the Stilleto is fully elliptical)? What IS performance? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #6 August 16, 2006 Sounds like you may already know the answer, but you're too busy downsizing to experience it. (Think about why the Sabre2 135 felt more aggressive than the Sabre 120 other than just the weights.) Have you jumped a Spectre? Many consider it a "conservative" canopy, but it will turn on a dime with aggressive input. There is more to performance than canopy type, size, and wingloading (although those are huge factors). The way the canopy is trimmed, the jumper's technique, and the jumper's experience/comfort level are also factors that play into their perceptions of how a canopy handles. I was comparing a lightly loaded Spectre to a lightly loaded Stiletto. If you don't understand the differences, maybe an instructor or a much more experienced jumper here can explain it much better than I can. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Elisha 1 #7 August 16, 2006 QuoteSounds like you may already know the answer, but you're too busy downsizing to experience it. I wouldn't say that - I'm thinking long term (for buying a container) and the 120 basically fell into my lap. I had jumped my Sabre-150 for about 90 jumps, demoed several and was in the market for a Sabre2-135 and someone (who has a lot of experience and jumps a VX) suggest even a 120. Well, a Sabre-120 fell into my lap. Still doesn't answer my question though of how a Stilleto-135 would compare to the Pilot-132. I sure didn't remember the Pilot 150 or 140 turn as sharply as the 132. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohanW 0 #8 August 16, 2006 QuoteI've been wanting to ask this for a while and this seems to be a good opportunity. Is there even a point to a low WL on a HP canopy? I mean, people usually have at least 1.4 or so on a canopy like a Stilleto...especially since you could easily load a Sabre2 or Spectre up to 1.5 or 1.6 within the mfg specs.A higher performance canopy will have a higher rate of turn, lose more altitude in a turn, dive longer after a turn and may have more oversteer after a turn than a less high performance canopy. It may also react more to front or rear riser or harness input. It can definitely be more fun. For all these reasons you also need to be a higher performance pilot on a higher performance canopy.QuoteThe comparison I can think of is overpowering a sedan and what you can do driving with it vs just getting a sports car. If a V6 is fine with you in the sports sedan and the associated performance, then fine, but it is pointless to just drive sports car around at only the speed limit.The sports car accelerates away from the traffic lights faster, doesn't it? It's probably able to negotiate turns faster and tighter than the sedan. Being built for it, it might feel more connected to the road. There is more to performance than flying or driving straight ahead at top speed. On the other hand, when your vehicle starts to become the limiting factor instead of you, when you're really wringing it out, that can be really fun too. And your margin of safety can be higher, because you just can't make your vehicle do some, very aggressive, things.Johan. I am. I think. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #9 August 16, 2006 QuoteStill doesn't answer my question though of how a Stilleto-135 would compare to the Pilot-132. I sure didn't remember the Pilot 150 or 140 turn as sharply as the 132. I think JohanW did a pretty good job of explaining it, but here's some more to consider... You are comparing different sizes/wing loadings on the same canopy. Yes, you will notice more aggressiveness from the smaller, more highly loaded one. That's a given. Your question, though, was how a Pilot compares to a Stiletto. I can't answer that with 100% surety because I've never jumped a Pilot. I can guess though: I don't think the Pilot is designed to be an aggressive or hp canopy, so if you compare it to a same-sized, same wing loaded Stiletto (or any other hp canopy), the Stiletto will dive more, turn faster, & be more responsive to most inputs (harness, toggle, risers). If the only differences in performance were the result of wing loading and/or size, why do you think manufacturers would bother designing new canopies? Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tdog 0 #10 August 17, 2006 Quotebut the Pilot-132 had some REALLY fast turns when I buried a toggle - almost too fast. It felt more mundane though when landing, probably because of the flatter glide. So how would a Pilot loaded at 1.1 compared to a Stiletto loaded the same since both are trimmed rather flat and are tapered (even though the Stiletto is fully elliptical)? I have not jumped a stiletto, but I have flown next to one with my Pilot and talked to a lot of people who have flown them. I have flown the Katana in a pretty similar WL to the various Pilots/Lotus/Spectre/Sabre2s I have jumped - and have 500 jumps on a Pilot last year... The Pilot is often "dissed" as a "novice canopy"... Two people in the last few months have said to me, "But you jump a Pilot" trying to prove I was jumping something more docile than their Sabre2... I think the Pilot is quite responsive - so much so, that my first Katana jump I pulled a toggle in the control check and thought, "Well, this feels like a Pilot." It was not until I pulled risers or tried harness turns that I really felt the difference... So, be careful to those who believe the pilot is less aggressive than, say a Sabre2... And I have seen a guy do an incredible swoop on a Pilot loaded nearly 2 to 1 (over the recomendations for sure.) Someone who actually has flown the Stiletto can tell me, but my friends say that it turns sharper with less toggle input - and has less range in the toggles - so the toggles feel very responsive - while the canopy recovers from a dive quickly... Again - just what I was told and saw, not personal experience - so take it for what it is worth. Here are a few PD documents that tell some of the details of their characteristics. The Katana one has a lot of "Stiletto VS Katana VS Sabre" comparisons: http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/stiletto.pdf http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/Sabre2-Flight.pdf http://www.performancedesigns.com/docs/KatanaFlightCharacteristics.PDF Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites