green beret demo

[jdthomas 0]

Last year I went to my home town for a festival and to watch the green beret parachute team jump into the down town event.
This event called good ol days is in Ft Scott kansas, a very small civil war military fort and not a modern military base. (just back ground info)
Upon my arrival I hear that these guys are to jump into a town intersection, well the kind of did. One guy made it in and the other guy trailing the flag landed on a roof top and his flag weight would have impacted the crowd below had it not been for a metal awening above the sidewalk.
I made a post about that event here and wrote the teams CO about this and get little response from them about the danger of jumping into a very uncontrolled crowded area.
This year was far worse, and part of what made it worse was half a city block was missing from a previous fire and the team had a larger LZ and still placed many people in danger. Not one team member landed uneventfull during this demo and now the town has a perception that all skydivers get hurt upon landing and that it's dangerous.. we all know the dangers of jumping but we don't have to take it to demos and give merit to the perception!
I am going to let my anger slide down a bit and just post these pics and file a report with the top brass of this outfit after I chill out and try to remain professional as possible about this.
I will post a pic of the crowd that was directly behind me and many of them where my close friends and thier children. they know me as a jumper and tailed me thinking i knew where to stand.. I wish they had moved when I told them these guys would chow before they even exited the chopper!
In the pic you will see who i think is jumper Jamie lynn imapct a steel pole. If it had not been for the pole snagging his riser he would have run into myself and others, his canopy did infact hit my wife (whi also jumps) and I.
I will also post pics of the weather, it was not ideal to say the least, although the winds where not much at the time of the jump.
The team contact is leader@gbpt.us if anyone cares to write these guys, I know that I will be addressing a letter to them with my thoughts soon.
Joe Thomas

www.greenboxphotography.com

[jdthomas 0]

here are a few more pics.
Weather and landing area plus one other jumper about to eat it.

the last one I call the artist and his work, if you note the fact that those poles are blunted keep in mind that his riser hit the red ones while he was in flight! this jumper is very lucky that he did not impale himself on these poles or get shocked by any hot wires. these boxes that they hit, left broken and unreported seem to be phone boxes.

www.greenboxphotography.com

[Squeak 17]

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and now the town has a perception that all skydivers get hurt upon landing and that it's dangerous.. Joe Thomas

I'm sorry but if the town truely does have that perception, that's one dumb arse town

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[jdthomas 0]

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and now the town has a perception that all skydivers get hurt upon landing and that it's dangerous.. Joe Thomas

I'm sorry but if the town truely does have that perception, that's one dumb arse town

So you think the town is full of dumb ass people because for two years in a row 5 jumpers come pile it in right in front of the crowd? How could you not feel that skydiving is dangerous thru the action of these jumpers?

www.greenboxphotography.com

[Squeak 17]

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and now the town has a perception that all skydivers get hurt upon landing and that it's dangerous.. Joe Thomas

I'm sorry but if the town truely does have that perception, that's one dumb arse town

So you think the town is full of dumb ass people because for two years in a row 5 jumpers come pile it in right in front of the crowd? How could you not feel that skydiving is dangerous thru the action of these jumpers?

Well i would think that these jumpers are dangerous, not that an entire sport is the same.
I see MotoGp crashes but i dont view the entire motor sport as a crash waiting to happen,
I would like to think your town is clever enough to be be able to discern the difference, but you know your town better than I

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[jdthomas 0]

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and now the town has a perception that all skydivers get hurt upon landing and that it's dangerous.. Joe Thomas

I'm sorry but if the town truely does have that perception, that's one dumb arse town

So you think the town is full of dumb ass people because for two years in a row 5 jumpers come pile it in right in front of the crowd? How could you not feel that skydiving is dangerous thru the action of these jumpers?

Well i would think that these jumpers are dangerous, not that an entire sport is the same.
I see MotoGp crashes but i dont view the entire motor sport as a crash waiting to happen,
I would like to think your town is clever enough to be be able to discern the difference, but you know your town better than I

I would say that based on the verbage I heard from the town that most people would feel the sport is dangerous and with the help of media it is only backed by actions like that of these jumpers.. alot of people are more well versed on motor sports of all types but few people ever see skydivers and have no idea what is about.
Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

[Squeak 17]

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Well if they based their judgements on 2 isolated incident performed by the same people, I would stand by my 1st assertion

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

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[BillyVance 34]

Yep, that's Jamie Lynn, from Myrtle Beach, SC. I jumped with him on the demos at the Shelby County airport air show last September. That was one big ass US flag. He did fine, stood his landings perfectly, but, air shows are usually the easiest demos to do.

I guess by the pictures and your first hand witness of the event, you could say he screwed up, and got lucky not to get hurt.

He has fewer than 1000 jumps. Well he had something like 850 jumps when he was with me, but I'm not saying that means anything though. If all he does is demos and practice demos, then he has more experience at it than I do.

At least I know when to say no. Hardest thing I ever did was say no go for a huge demo at a deaf school's 150 year anniversary event because the winds were 1 mph over the limit in a congested city. A huge flag like that in a city like the one you were in, well, lets say I wouldn't do it. I'd rather see somebody like Guy Manos or Jim Wallace or other people with their experience do it. That's all.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[jdthomas 0]

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I guess by the pictures and your first hand witness of the event, you could say he screwed up, and got lucky not to get hurt.

reply]

Yes he was very lucky as was the other jumpers, there where actually two strikes at this pole area, the first was the team leader and the next was this jamie Lynn guy.
The other jumpers left diviots as well, just in more of the middle are of the LZ.
I just can't believe that last year they put a guy on a roof top, the next day (last year) they had a team member break an ankle and then this year they get a Larger LZ and all the jumpers eat shit at landing.. thier skill level must go down with larger lz's or something.
Some of the stuff that gets me is that they left a broken and exposed box as if it did not matter to them and I do feel that this team as a whole owes this crowd an apology for the recklessness of thier actions.
I can't imagine the drama that would have unfolded for many of those people staning behind me in the crowd had this jumper impaled himself on any of those 3 poles sticking up or got hit by the electricity had he hit the lines to his right. senseless stuff.

www.greenboxphotography.com

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[BIGUN 1,323]

I'm curious about some things.

1. What is your objective for posting this thread, pics and names here? Is it educational, venting, what?
2. For the amount of time you spent posting this thread, you could have already wrote to the team CO and focused your concerns to the proper audience rather than a public forum (sometimes a well aimed single shot is a lot more effective than a shotgun blast).
3. Most military operations have/do an After-Action Report. Perhaps you could present your input to the Team Commander as a supplement to that report from a fellow professional's perspective so they can review your input for future operations rather than giving the appearance of just providing a rant.
4. I notice you have your PRO rating. Is there a reason you haven't approached the town about doing the demo if there is that much concern?
5. On that note, have you considered offering your services to the CO as ground to air support or as Advance Party for the demo?

Finally, if it's a matter of having the military make the demo jump because it's a military event, you may wish to consider your letter to the CO in a more constructive manner than the posting here or you may force the CO into a position of pulling the demo event all together in the future.

On a final note, I'm not trying to pick an Internet argument with you, nor am I saying they did a particularly splendid job on the demo - I'm just suggesting that as an ambassador for the sport, there's a better way of achieving your objectives of making the event better and safer than the medium and method chosen here.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[tkhayes 348]

And there is nothing stopping the jumper from choosign even a smaller flag for the jump either. a 20x30' flag (my guess from the picture) is a big-ass flag with many more complications than a simple 4x8 flag.

The crowd does not care - as in most demos - they are just amazed watching someone jump and land.

From the clouds, I have to wonder how many FARs got violated as well.

And yes, the whole town has the right to think that skydivers get hurt all the time and that we do not know what we are doing - we just demonstrated it to them in full view.

Pisses me off to no end. Learn to say NO for fuck's sake.

TK

[tkhayes 348]

I disagree. This is EXACTLY one of the forums to dicuss this and regardless of what is said or even how it is said - it is still a good way to bring light to this sort of event. Afterall, the very existence of forums is for the purpose of spreading information.

1. His 'objective' is of little relevance to the actual situation. Even if his objective was to put the screws to some people for no good reason, the information contained herein may still be valid. You are also welcome to validate or disregard it.
2. He already stated that he wrote the CO, and I would assume that he will likely do that again. Or possibly give up in disgust.
3. Maybe he already has done that. If he wrote the CO last year and they basically did the same sort of 'bad jump' again this year - then perhaps his comments fell on deaf ears.
4. Just because he has a PRO rating does not mean he is interested in replacing a team on an event. But it does make him relatively experienced enough to comment on a demo jump. Why do towns, events and others hire military demo teams? Because they are often FREE. I charge upwards of $3000-$4000. Plus the public percetion most likely is that the military are 'more highly trained experts' than just us 'stoopid sport jumpers'. And they may not even realize that we even exist.
5. Offer your services to help out with the jump? Will that realistically change the outcome? If I was an ATP, and I did not like the way that Delta airlines flew their planes or handled their ground operations, would I then 'volunteer' to Delta to offer to help out to make it safer? No. I would probably write a letter or an article, such as this, to tell the story of the poor operations.

It sounds to me that the only thin wrong with this post is that maybe it shoudl be under 'incidents' instead of the bonfire.

TK

[Squeak 17]

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And yes, the whole town has the right to think that skydivers get hurt all the time and that we do not know what we are doing - we just demonstrated it to them in full view.
TK

Then they have a very narrow minded simplistic view of their world

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[BIGUN 1,323]

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1. His 'objective' is of little relevance to the actual situation. Even if his objective was to put the screws to some people for no good reason, the information contained herein may still be valid.

Then where are his professional observations for prevention, suggestions, or education? Whereas, you proffer the jumping of a smaller flag and sum it up perfectly, "Learn to say NO for fuck's sake."

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[Gawain 0]

I have some questions related to your observations:

1. Was there a low pass to drop wind-drift indicators?
2. What was the ceiling of that cloud cover?
3. Was there a ground crew?

From the looks of the first group of pictures you posted, it looked like he was sinking it in and low turning, but I couldn't tell what he was compensating for.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[jdthomas 0]

to reply to some of the questions here.

Keith, My position on this is that these guys seem to be unsafe, last year i went as support to watch jumpers celebrate my home town festival and upon arrival I learned where these guys intended to jump and thought is was a bad choice. I voiced my thoughts then to both the crew and the jumpers. I was not listend to and the jump went on and people where put in jeporady by the teams poor choice to jump into a very small area with a large crowd.
Ayt that time I did file a report with the C/O and it fell on deaf ears becuase the C/O is actually one of the jumpers.
This year I was pleased when I heard they where going to land in a larger area and then upset when it all went down hill.
I have tried to talk with local oficals but they see me as an outsider on this because these guys are army and that some how must translate to having more knowledge then some guy who just jumps.
One this date the C/O was also jumping and he was the first guy to land and also hit the same poles that the jumper in the pics hit.
one of my major problems with this is that they feel thier skill level is such that this was doable jump when the history of this jump has proven otherwise and when advice is given to abort the jump this team still chooses to jump.
In this action they place themsleves and the locals of this town in danger. these locals include many of my friends and family members who want to just watch jumpers and have fun in doing so. they don't want to be placed in danger by reckless actions.
I have talked with many people about what route i should take in reporting this, including higer ups in the USPA even though this is somewhat of a military matter and all suggested posting this here as well as direct links.
In answer to many other questions, yes there was a WDI and I did post that the weather was stormy but at the time of the jump was decent enough to make a safe skydive.
One last note, yes Keith I have PRO rating and many other ratings, even S&TA and as such I saw nothing safe about the actions of these jumpers.
I may have a few thosuand jumps and 14 years of jumping and would never consider jumping into this location espically when other places are near,larger and safer for crowds. and yes I have spoken with local officals about this to educate them.
Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

[jdthomas 0]

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I disagree. This is EXACTLY one of the forums to dicuss this and regardless of what is said or even how it is said - it is still a good way to bring light to this sort of event. Afterall, the very existence of forums is for the purpose of spreading information.

1. His 'objective' is of little relevance to the actual situation. Even if his objective was to put the screws to some people for no good reason, the information contained herein may still be valid. You are also welcome to validate or disregard it.
2. He already stated that he wrote the CO, and I would assume that he will likely do that again. Or possibly give up in disgust.
3. Maybe he already has done that. If he wrote the CO last year and they basically did the same sort of 'bad jump' again this year - then perhaps his comments fell on deaf ears.
4. Just because he has a PRO rating does not mean he is interested in replacing a team on an event. But it does make him relatively experienced enough to comment on a demo jump. Why do towns, events and others hire military demo teams? Because they are often FREE. I charge upwards of $3000-$4000. Plus the public percetion most likely is that the military are 'more highly trained experts' than just us 'stoopid sport jumpers'. And they may not even realize that we even exist.
5. Offer your services to help out with the jump? Will that realistically change the outcome? If I was an ATP, and I did not like the way that Delta airlines flew their planes or handled their ground operations, would I then 'volunteer' to Delta to offer to help out to make it safer? No. I would probably write a letter or an article, such as this, to tell the story of the poor operations.

It sounds to me that the only thin wrong with this post is that maybe it shoudl be under 'incidents' instead of the bonfire.

TK

TK I should ahve just said YES this is my answers as you pretty much summed it up correctly.
Thanks
Joe

www.greenboxphotography.com

[LouDiamond 1]

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I have tried to talk with local oficals but they see me as an outsider on this because these guys are army.....I have talked with many people about what route i should take in reporting this, including higer ups in the USPA even though this is somewhat of a military matter

FYI,The demo team in question IS NOT a Command sponsored or supported military demonstration parachute team. As far as I know, they may or may not fall under NAF (Non Appropriated Funds) for support. So I don't think they have any official military support from anyone ( I am not 100% on this and may be mistaken on this part). Most are retired military and do demos on their time like any other civilian demo team. Regardless, if you have issue with the event, your best course of action is to address all parties involved in a civil manner, be it in person or writing, outlining what and why you felt the event was unsafe and how it could be made safer in the future. As always, I am glad no one was hurt.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[jdthomas 0]

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I have tried to talk with local oficals but they see me as an outsider on this because these guys are army.....I have talked with many people about what route i should take in reporting this, including higer ups in the USPA even though this is somewhat of a military matter

FYI,The demo team in question IS NOT a Command sponsored or supported military demonstration parachute team. As far as I know, they may or may not fall under NAF (Non Appropriated Funds) for support. So I don't think they have any official military support from anyone ( I am not 100% on this and may be mistaken on this part). Most are retired military and do demos on their time like any other civilian demo team. Regardless, if you have issue with the event, your best course of action is to address all parties involved in a civil manner, be it in person or writing, outlining what and why you felt the event was unsafe and how it could be made safer in the future. As always, I am glad no one was hurt.

I have addressed the team in the past and it got no where, I have also addressed the locals that host and organize the event. Last year i got no where, today while on the phone with them I think that they may becoming to understand that yesterdays jump was close to a tragic end.
The team uses a balck hawk for thier lifting to alti so I guess they have some support from the military.
www.gbpt.us is the web site, i can't see that they are govt funded or not from the site.
Like I have said, i have offered my service as ground crew several times and like TK said, the locals take the word of the GBPT over mine as they tend to view those guys as experts and view me as average jumper guy with no knowledge.

www.greenboxphotography.com

[azdiver 0]

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I have tried to talk with local oficals but they see me as an outsider on this because these guys are army.....I have talked with many people about what route i should take in reporting this, including higer ups in the USPA even though this is somewhat of a military matter

FYI,The demo team in question IS NOT a Command sponsored or supported military demonstration parachute team. As far as I know, they may or may not fall under NAF (Non Appropriated Funds) for support. So I don't think they have any official military support from anyone ( I am not 100% on this and may be mistaken on this part). Most are retired military and do demos on their time like any other civilian demo team. Regardless, if you have issue with the event, your best course of action is to address all parties involved in a civil manner, be it in person or writing, outlining what and why you felt the event was unsafe and how it could be made safer in the future. As always, I am glad no one was hurt.

I have addressed the team in the past and it got no where, I have also addressed the locals that host and organize the event. Last year i got no where, today while on the phone with them I think that they may becoming to understand that yesterdays jump was close to a tragic end.
The team uses a balck hawk for thier lifting to alti so I guess they have some support from the military.
www.gbpt.us is the web site, i can't see that they are govt funded or not from the site.
Like I have said, i have offered my service as ground crew several times and like TK said, the locals take the word of the GBPT over mine as they tend to view those guys as experts and view me as average jumper guy with no knowledge.

sounds like you need to find a group that they view as experts and let them explain things to them

light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear to be bright until you hear them speak

[BillyVance 34]

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*** Like I have said, i have offered my service as ground crew several times and like TK said, the locals take the word of the GBPT over mine as they tend to view those guys as experts and view me as average jumper guy with no knowledge.

sounds like you need to find a group that they view as experts and let them explain things to them

How about getting USPA's director of S&T involved? I have found him very helpful when I had questions regarding demos I was working on.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

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[BIGUN 1,323]

Joe,

Thanks for expanding on your previous thread. More enlightment now that it's been explained. I'm not sure what to say at this point as it seems you've been diligent in your responsibilities in communicating to both the town and the CO only for it to fall on deaf ears. I found myself in a situation once here in Tulsa, where the town was having a big festival and wanted our demo team to jump into Driller Stadium. I went and reconned the area and holy shit... Power lines in the pattern, street traffic, the public, bleachers, winds outta the south coming over the bleacher roof creating eddies, parking lots, signage, the whole bit. Now, landing on the pitcher's mound for most of us ain't no big deal (and I can sink my PD 300 Demo canopy almost straight down), it's the approach and the outs that are more important and I followed TK's line of "Fuck NO!"

My only sugggestions at this point would be to 1) Go over the CO's head and document the history and sheer luck that no one was injured, 2) take it to city council, and 3) if city council snubs you, the newspapers would be interested in an OpEd piece. The down side of that is, it don't do much for our sport.

Good Luck, Joe.

On a separate note, I'm behind schedule on visiting sister in KC and when I get up there; maybe we can hook up. I'll give you a heads up when I head in that direction.

Keith

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[SkymonkeyONE 4]

I am going to follow-up on what Scott said here a bit:

The Green Beret Parachute Team is not an active-duty parachute team. It has no "commanding officer" and the great majority of it's members are retired soldiers (and not all US Army either) who used to jump at the old Green Beret Parachute Club. There are even some dependants who jump on the team. It is now, and has been for the past nine years at least, staffed with part-time jumpers who used to meet once a week at the old GB Parachute Club (later "activity") on Fort Bragg. I have no idea where they might meet now that the post shut down the parachute activity. They are not funded in any way by the military any longer as far as I know. Prior to the advent of the active-duty-only USASOC parachute team "the black daggers", the GBPT was command sponsored and supported to a degree by USAJFKSWC (the special forces school) and the team was made up primarilly of active-duty members of the command, retired GS empoyees still working on Fort Bragg at the special warfare center, and other units on Fort Bragg. I was a member of the team from 1985 until I retired in 2003, but rarely did any demos with that team after I moved over to the Daggers. After the Black Daggers stood up, the great majority of us who were still on active duty moved over to the new team. Some of us still volunteered to go do GBPT demos as well when time permitted, but only rarely. I still have some of my GBPT uniforms in my closet.

Every member of the GB Parachute Team has a PRO rating. Some of the guys are quite long in the tooth, though, and don't jump as much as they used to.

I am not sure how many guys I would know on the team these days, but it used to be a great group of jumpers. Mostly retired GS employees. The team operates hand to mouth on whatever shows they can rustle up. The members are lucky to get paid food, travel and lodging. Again, it's not command sponsored at all. Entirely voluntary with no full-time staffing or budget.

It's a shame that they had a run of bad luck in this particular town.

Chuck Blue
D-12501
GBPT and USASOC parachute team alumni

[peanut4040 0]

In the pic you will see who i think is jumper Jamie lynn imapct a steel pole. If it had not been for the pole snagging his riser he would have run into myself and others, his canopy did infact hit my wife (whi also jumps)

Chucklles, what were you doing THERE? are you a dumbass rookie trying to show off and get close to "Professionals" ???

Why did you lead your wife over there?

Do you know what a demo is yet?

Its a good day to LIVE, why puck up a good thing.

There is no reply in aad section for. " hell no i would not put an AAD on my back"

[peanut4040 0]

TK I should ahve just said YES this is my answers as you pretty much summed it up correctly.
Thanks
Joe


DUDEEEEEE,, wipe the brown off your nose....

Its a good day to LIVE, why puck up a good thing.

There is no reply in aad section for. " hell no i would not put an AAD on my back"