metal reserve handles Vs Pillows, Opinions?

[rigger_john 0]

I'm intrested in hearing other riggers and jumpers opinions of metal reserve handles Vs the soft pillow types.

Is there any advantage of one against the other?

For instance are pillows only any good for jumpers doing fast close RW? Is there any real advantage for FF or is it just a fashion trend?

Let the games commence

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

[kelpdiver 2]

these days most (many?) rigs have an option for a lower profile metal D. Reduces the snag risk while retaining some of the gain over the pillow.

I've never used mine, so I can't offer a strong opinion other than the debate is no longer a binary one.

[rigger_john 0]

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these days most (many?) rigs have an option for a lower profile metal D. Reduces the snag risk while retaining some of the gain over the pillow.

So you are of the opinion that a pillow ruduces the risk of a snag? I know of 3 reserve deployments caused by snaged handles 1 was caused by sombody doing a vertical transition over a skydiver whos hand went through a metal handle

the other 2 were from free flyers knocking sombody elses (snag resistant) pillow out during funnels

So from my very limited and personal experiance Handles are twice as secure as pillows

_________________________________________

Nullius in Verba

[justinb138 0]

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Is there any real advantage for FF or is it just a fashion trend?

IMO, the pillow isn't as easy to grab as the D-ring, so it's going to be harder for someone to accidentally pull it.

The downside is that it's also harder to grab when you need to use it.

If you have a premature reserve deployment doing RW (assuming there is no camera above you), you're probably going to be sore from the terminal reserve deployment.

A premature reserve deployment at freefly speeds can easily seriously injure or kill, either from an extremely hard opening, or resulting damage to the reserve.

[mjosparky 4]

I have always preferred metal “D” handles on both sides. I use the 2 handed method of cutaway. I hook a thumb in each handle and go from there.

1. Have never seen a “D” handle tuck under a MLW
2. They are easy to see, never the same color as jumpsuit
3. Can be pulled with either hand.

DISCLAIMER:

This is just my preference and not recommended for home use.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[phoenixlpr 0]

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1. Have never seen a “D” handle tuck under a MLW
2. They are easy to see, never the same color as jumpsuit
3. Can be pulled with either hand.

It does have a different touch. It can be mixed.

I did it with both soft handes as a student.

[grue 1]

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2. They are easy to see, never the same color as jumpsuit

Obviously you've never seen my jumpsuit. Excuse the presence of my skysurf board.

cavete terrae.

[mjosparky 4]

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It does have a different touch. It can be mixed.

One is on the left side the other is on the right side. Hard to mix that up.

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I did it with both soft handes as a student.

Do you think that was the fault of the handles or an inexperienced student getting confused over right and left?

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[mjosparky 4]

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2. They are easy to see, never the same color as jumpsuit

Obviously you've never seen my jumpsuit. Excuse the presence of my skysurf board.

I bet that suit caused you some fall rate problems.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[grue 1]

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2. They are easy to see, never the same color as jumpsuit

Obviously you've never seen my jumpsuit. Excuse the presence of my skysurf board.

I bet that suit caused you some fall rate problems.

There were a lot of complaints about my lack of grippers when I did RW

cavete terrae.

[BKR 0]

A friend of mine has impacted because of the soft pillow resrve handle. He has the reflex habit to hook the reserve handle with his thumb as it must be. One day he used my own rig and has a malfunction. Then after cuting away he did the same, but the handle was a pillow, no aad at this time, he spent his time to grab the pillow and never got it, he bounced. Since this happened, I have decided to banned this kind of reserve handle.
How many prematured reserve openings we have seen with D metal handle?
How many of them became a fatality?
How many people have their hand ripped on this kind of pillow handle?
How many bounced, at least one I knew...

Reserve handle is our last chance (without aad) would you play with it, just for fashion or rumour???

Take care all of you.

Jérôme Bunker
Basik Air Concept
www.basik.fr
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Le-Luc-France/BASIK-AIR-CONCEPT/172133350468

[MrHixxx 0]

I use a reserve pillow with a hard insert and a soft loop cutaway and I have "used" them 3 times this year, once under a seriously violent mal.

The cutaway handle is the only one that can change in pull force with the situation (violent malfunction). So, I wanted optimum leverage with a soft loop. If it ever results in a snag and cutaway in freefall, that's cool I'll use my reserve.

The reserve pull force will always be the same based on how I packed it (actually lower pull force after the repack settles). So, I am more concerned with perserving my last bullet from a snagged handle. If it gets out and entangles you are probably done for the day or much longer.

So, in my opinion. The industry standard (metal reserve, pillow cutaway) seems a bit backwards if you consider how each system works and their importance in emergency procedures.

be safe, have fun, Hixxx

[rwieder 0]

On my new Javelin i ordered the Phat-Daddy handles. I have pretty big hands, i've practiced with the rig on a lot. If i miss either handle, i deserve the bounce. They're pretty big in diameter, hard to miss and easy to get a good grip on. I wear leather gloves and it only serves to make the grab - pull easier for me, (And NO i'm not going to throw my handles away) This does not mean for you to do it, it only means due to my limited experience it works for me.......hopefully. Good Luck.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[DJmikeD 0]

The new system I just got has Pillow handles for Cut away and reserve. Red for cut away, and Green For the reserve. I also have an AAD so if the day ever comes where I can not get my hand on it the AAD should kick in. I did this not because of the way that it looks but because of the SNAG factor for the D ring. Let’s face it when it comes to the choice of design its not that one is better then the other it is what are you are better with. Got with what you want.

"Falling is the easy part, Landing smoothly is the most importent part!
-DJ Mike

[btwitche1975 0]

This came up a while ago it seems.

Here's what Bill Booth had to say.

Some senior riggers also joined in.

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1563338#1563338

/*
This is my rig... There are many like it, but this one is mine.
*/

[Andy9o8 2]

From Bill Booth:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=1563338#1563338

***
The hardest part of designing the 3-ring system in the first place was designing a handle that would stay put better than the then current metal loop ripcord handle. When a metal RESERVE ripcord handle comes loose, the pressure from the pilot chute spring on the pin will usually keep the reserve shut. However, there is no such tension on the 3-ring system, so if the handle comes loose, the whole system is much more likely to come apart. I believe that if I had set up the first 3-rings with metal loop handles, the entire system would have failed because of accidental releases. Remember, the most important function of any canopy release system is not to release. (It must stay connected for nearly 1,000 jumps for each time it is expected to release.) My soft 3-ring handle is the most snag proof handle ever invented. Please leave it alone.[url]

[sundevil777 102]

It has been shown that it is possible to hold onto a pillow with a great deal of force, but I think that finding might not be so true if the pillow must be grabbed and force applied very quickly. When I need to grab a handle fast and be able to pull hard, I want something that allows me to grab it using that wonderful opposable thumb.

I think that much of the objection to the standard D handle is minimized when some alternatives are available, see pics.

I think this version of the low profile metal handle is great, and much better than the triangular alternatives I've seen. It just doesn't stick out that much, but is still very easy to find in a hurry. The second pic shows both for comparison, they fit in the same pocket.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[riggerrob 643]

Funny,

A customer recently received his new Wings container with a low profile, metal reserve handle similar to the low profile Infinity handle.
He was disappointed at how small the handle was and worried that he might not be able to pull it while wearing inter gloves.
I agreed, especially considering that I have frozen my hands so many times that my grip strength suffers in cold weather.
In conclusion, I prefer the triangular, low profile ripcord handles from the Racer shop.

[mattjw916 2]

I'm a pillow fan personally.

All my handles are pillows: main, cutaway, and reserve.

As such, I know they are all harder to pull than d-rings, hackeys, monkeyfists, etc... so I plan accordingly.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[sundevil777 102]

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Funny,

A customer recently received his new Wings container with a low profile, metal reserve handle similar to the low profile Infinity handle.
He was disappointed at how small the handle was and worried that he might not be able to pull it while wearing inter gloves.
I agreed, especially considering that I have frozen my hands so many times that my grip strength suffers in cold weather.
In conclusion, I prefer the triangular, low profile ripcord handles from the Racer shop.

I'm surprised at your perception that it is, in effect, too low profile for winter glove use. It seems to have plenty of 'opening' space to me. Shouldn't this mean that a conventional pad cutaway handle would be troublesome?

I think the type handle I use has been seen most often on Racers. I asked VSE what other metal handles they had to offer, explaining that I don't like the triangular handles (they don't seem low profile to me), and they suggested the handle I now have in the pics.

I don't know where they purchased the handle, it should be considered an option for any rig, since it fits the standard pocket.

I've used a cutaway pillow in a real emergency without problem, but I now have a loop cutaway handle. I've used both of my alternative handles, and liked the result very much.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[Tonto 1]

I have 2 rigs.

1. Mirage G4, with a pillow handle, used mainly for AFF. Over the last 1900 AFF dives I've had some "clingy" students and the lower grab/snag likelyhood apeals to me.

2. Mirage G3, with a low profile triangular handle. This rig is used primarily for Birdman, and with an alti, and sometimes a GPS, and wings, low snag possibility etc, I found the metal handle more practical.

I have no AAD. The metal handle is certainly the more conservative and in my opinion, overall safer option, and can be pulled even if bones in the hand are broken. That's hardly possible with a pillow as grip strength is a requirement.

I have 19 cutaways and have used both D rings and pillows on regular and Tandem gear, all without issue.

t

It's the year of the Pig.

[Ron 10]

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It does have a different touch. It can be mixed.

I did it with both soft handes as a student.

Most likely you would have done it with any combination of types of handles. If you could not remember, "Right then Left" You most likely would not have remembered which handle was soft and which was hard.

Thats taking a simple Right then Left and ADDING the sense of touch to the equation to make a choice.

As for me, I have 6? cutaways. All have been with a metal handle. On my new rig, Derick gave me soft handles. I honestly don't know if I like them. I am waiting to make that call after I use them the first time.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Chris-Ottawa 0]

I thought I'd pipe up here because I bought a rig with pillows for cutaway and reserve. I was warned about the extra attention I have to pay to the pillows, but I have a question.

Why is everyone concerned about a reserve pillow when cutaway pillows are pretty much standard? I figure, if one is a pillow, why not make it the same? Can someone clarify on the difference, or something I may be overlooking? If you're worried about slipping or not getting a good grip, why would cutaways be made of the exact same material/method?

I did read about if your hand was broken and you couldn't pull, but you have a second hand as well if it came to that. If tHat didn't work, either you would find a way or hope to hell your cypres worked.

It seems that some people are dead against pillow reserve handles, while others are all for it, and some are in between. I'm basically just wondering why I should be concerned about my reserve handle and not my cutaway?

Thanks everyone

"When once you have tasted flight..."

[NWFlyer 2]

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I'm basically just wondering why I should be concerned about my reserve handle and not my cutaway?

Here's one set of thoughts on the difference, from Bill Booth himself:

http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=141612

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[RMURRAY 1]

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DISCLAIMER:

This is just my preference and not recommended for home use.

here is something you posted a while back. After reading this I would not get a fully articulated harness or a soft reserve handle. I would get a low profile metal handle if I was buying a new racer.................

I recieved this in a news letter from Skydive Calif. City, the Safey & Training section written every month by JC Coldren USPA I/E S&TA.
It makes me wounder why anyone would use a pillow reserve handle or go without an RSL.
Sparky

From: Rick Horn
Subject: 5000+ jumps, saved by RSL
Date: 1997/00/03
I got saved by,a backup device (RSL) on Thursday. August 28th. I thought I’d relay the formation
My background: 5000+ jumps, 107 cutaways, (No I don’t need to learn how to back, a lot of test jumps and films.) About 20 unplanned cutaways.
21 years jumping, AFF I/E, static Line I/E, Full time instructor at Perris, AFF Course Director for USPA.
Equipment Background: Rig- Javelin, Articulated harness (Rings top and bottom), RSL and Cypres equipped. Soft Reserve pillow, Main, Stiletto 135. Reserve- PDI43R, I wear my leg straps and chest strap quite tight.
The jump: A great APP Level 4, the student did well, I watched deployment on the student’s canopy, and hung around to give a thumbs up forte camera. This put everything happening a little lower than usual, so I threw the main out at about 2100, as opposed to the usual 2500 since I’ve gotten older and hopefully wiser. The main opened into a severe spin. There were no line twists, but I don’t know what caused the spin, as I could not see the left side of the canopy. After the usual playing around with It, I decided to get rid of it. My procedures are grab cutaway, grab reserve, pud cutaway, pull reserve.
I went for the cutaway handle, and to my surprise, it was on the LEFT side of my chest I grabbed it, and reached for the reserve handle. It was somewhere under my left armpit I could only touch it with my thumb, and not grab it. My theory is that a combination of the severe spin and the articulated harness allowed the handles to move so far.
I had also practiced hooking my thumb between the reserve pillow and the housing. I was unable to do it. I then pulled the cutaway handle, as I was not accomplishing anything in my attempt to find the reserve handle.
After pulling the cutaway, I continued to search for the reserve pillow. I was unable to find it. I theorize that it tucked under the main lift web as the harness slid back into position That theory took a couple of days to figure out. Being honest, I have my sincere doubts that I would have found the handle within the 6 seconds of working time that I had left.
My ML prevented me from knowing the answer.
I have since modified my rig to include a standard ripcord on the reserve. This should also serve as a reminder that backup devices, whether they be ML or AAD can save your life, no matter what your experience. Please don’t make this into a debate thread, there have been enough. I just wanted to share the experience, so people could make informed decisions. Rick Horn
D-6277 AFFI/E
USPA APP Course Director