DSE 5 #1 August 28, 2006 I've been packing with my toggles facing in one direction for nearly 200 jumps. The other day one of the much more experienced was walking by, saw me packing the toggles, and practically tore my head off with a "No! F$#@! no! Who taught you that sh**? They MUST be faced XXX way." First, I thought it didn't really matter so long as both toggles are directed identically. Second, if it *does* mattter, should they be placed facing inside or outside the rig? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FrogNog 1 #2 August 28, 2006 Did his invective include any explanation why you must not do it the way you were doing? And, where do you mean "placed"? Do you mean toggles relative to the risers when you set the toggles in the brake line eyelets near the start of packing? Or do you mean when you set the risers on the outside of the reserve container as you place the d-bag in the main container near the end of packing? -=-=-=-=- Pull. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #3 August 28, 2006 I'm referring to placing toggles/risers in relation to putting the Dbag in the tray near the end of packing, just prior to closure of the riser covers. In other words, the position they'll be facing. In other words, their final packed position. Yes, he gave me a small "dumbass, don't you know they'll hang up on the container?" lecture, but frankly, that didn't make sense, or I'm just too dense to have understood it. If there is a reason that the toggles should face to the inside or outside of the container once the rig is packed, I'm all ears. In theory, it doesn't seem to matter. In practice, perhaps it does? I honestly never noticed how they were packed when I was a student, and during my packing instruction no one specified either direction. Just "Place the risers/toggles into the rig, being sure lines are routed correctly in the tray prior to placing the Dbag and closing the rig" kind of direction. Have I been lucky so far? Or is my chain being yanked? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggermick 7 #4 August 28, 2006 QuoteI'm referring to placing toggles/risers in relation to putting the Dbag in the tray near the end of packing, just prior to closure of the riser covers. In other words, the position they'll be facing. In other words, their final packed position. Yes, he gave me a small "dumbass, don't you know they'll hang up on the container?" lecture, but frankly, that didn't make sense, or I'm just too dense to have understood it. If there is a reason that the toggles should face to the inside or outside of the container once the rig is packed, I'm all ears. In theory, it doesn't seem to matter. In practice, perhaps it does? I honestly never noticed how they were packed when I was a student, and during my packing instruction no one specified either direction. Just "Place the risers/toggles into the rig, being sure lines are routed correctly in the tray prior to placing the Dbag and closing the rig" kind of direction. Have I been lucky so far? Or is my chain being yanked? I'm betting he's not a rigger!! It sounds like his personal "I have blah balah jumps, I know everything, blah blah" opinion. Tell him to "go pound sand". Talk to your local rigger he should know more than than your local "sky god". Mick. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brabzzz 0 #5 August 28, 2006 I think I pack mine facing in most of the time. But sometimes I forget and pack them facing out, or one in, one out. Like you, i recall being told by someone 'how' to do it, but it's worked for 500 jumps using an odd mix of the two. All I get is furry brake lines, but that's because I'm too lazy to stown the excess line). --------------------------------------- Ex-University of Bristol Skydiving Club www.skydivebristoluni.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydivex3m 0 #6 August 28, 2006 The packing course all jumpers has to go through i Denmark, it is a specific check when the container is closed, that the toggles have to face in to the reserve. we don't have a tradition for packers in Denmark, so after the student have made his second jump, he learns to pack! I don't recall that i have heard any reason why they MUST face in to the reserve, but i just do it.. looks best anyway.. maby it can cause a spin on smaller canopies, when the risers has a twist to the same side???https://icarusanddaedalusadventures.blogspot.com/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beezyshaw 0 #7 August 28, 2006 I think the main reason conventional wisdom was to face the toggles "in", or against the sides of the reserve, was to prevent toggle or control line snagging on exit or in freefall. Older design rigs did not have near the protection factor of today's gear when it comes to main riser covers. The inner flap now common on main riser covers is one example of how much better the risers and toggles are concealed and protected. Very old Racers and Wonderhogs only had a small velcro strap to hold main risers close to the container, and the main riser itself was completely outside the rig; in that era it was crucial to route the toggles facing "in". On today's gear, it still seems cleaner to route the toggles facing "in" because (on my rigs anyway) facing them "out" puts a half-twist in the main risers as they go down the sides of the reserve contaner. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #8 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'm betting he's not a rigger!! It sounds like his personal "I have blah balah jumps, I know everything, blah blah" opinion. Tell him to "go pound sand". Talk to your local rigger he should know more than than your local "sky god". Mick. He's a master rigger. I've usually faced the toggles out on my Eclipse, but I have a smaller Infinity that I face them inwards. Haven't noticed any difference, and in asking another rigger yesterday, the response was "it doesn't matter anymore, we used to always face them inwards. If it's working for you, stick with it." On my smaller rig, the toggles fall inward naturally, but on my larger rig, they fall outward naturally, perhaps due to a 1" riser vs the 2?" Or maybe from the previous owner. Dunno. Either way, both seem comfortable, and both open correctly so far. Thanks for the input guys! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #9 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'm betting he's not a rigger!! It sounds like his personal "I have blah balah jumps, I know everything, blah blah" opinion. Tell him to "go pound sand". Talk to your local rigger he should know more than than your local "sky god". Mick. He's a master rigger. I've usually faced the toggles out on my Eclipse, but I have a smaller Infinity that I face them inwards. Haven't noticed any difference, and in asking another rigger yesterday, the response was "it doesn't matter anymore, we used to always face them inwards. If it's working for you, stick with it." On my smaller rig, the toggles fall inward naturally, but on my larger rig, they fall outward naturally, perhaps due to a 1" riser vs the 2?" Or maybe from the previous owner. Dunno. Either way, both seem comfortable, and both open correctly so far. Thanks for the input guys! _____________________________ Master rigger? Sounds like his wife burned his breakfast toast! What does the 'Owner's' manual for your harness container say? I do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. I've always placed the risers so the toggles are facing the sides of the reserve container, not facing the riser covers. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #10 August 28, 2006 If I recall correctly, only the Flexon manual says to face toggles outboard. ... but as Beezy said, with modern riser covers, it makes little difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #11 August 28, 2006 QuoteI've been packing with my toggles facing in one direction for nearly 200 jumps. The other day one of the much more experienced was walking by, saw me packing the toggles, and practically tore my head off with a "No! F$#@! no! Who taught you that sh**? They MUST be faced XXX way." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't you just love dogmatic a$$holes? He knows enough to chew you a new a$$hole, but not enough to explain the theory behind his "better" method. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #12 August 28, 2006 Chuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #13 August 28, 2006 QuoteChuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. I don't have a manual for my Eclipse/Stunt, and the Infinity manual doesn't say which is preferable. Just says "Stow the risers under the riser cover flaps, laying them side by side. Place bag in container as shown, etc. It appears that historically, facing inward was necessary, and today it's not critical? I don't think I buy the argument that your toggles will snag on the riser covers and cause a brake-fire, but maybe that makes sense to someone? On both my Eclipse and Infinity, once you're past the 3 ring, everything is completely discreet (covered). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #14 August 28, 2006 QuoteChuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. ________________________________ WOW! Amazing! I guess, you and I and other riggers are more used to looking at the 'Reserve' portions of owner's manuals. Un-believable! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darnknit 0 #15 August 28, 2006 QuoteIf I recall correctly, only the Flexon manual says to face toggles outboard. para-flite eos as well, but i thought it was towards the floor rather than outboard on both rigs. pulling is cool. keep it in the skin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #16 August 28, 2006 QuoteI do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. That statement made me wince a bit. Someone with low experience doesn't have enough jumps yet to know whether something is being done correctly or not. Just because they've got away with it so far, doesn't mean that it is the best way. Maybe they've just been lucky. Maybe the failure rate that way is very low to start with, but could be even lower done differently. At any rate, just because it's been done that way for several hundred jumps without a problem, by one new jumper, doesn't mean that it is okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #17 August 28, 2006 QuoteOn today's gear, it still seems cleaner to route the toggles facing "in" because (on my rigs anyway) facing them "out" puts a half-twist in the main risers as they go down the sides of the reserve contaner. Bingo! That's something that no one else seems to be considering. Why would anyone intentionally put a half twist in their risers? Just lay the risers down flat from the three-rings to the pack tray, which puts the toggle inboard. How simple can it get? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeffrey 1 #18 August 28, 2006 Quote ***I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. QuoteSome are and some are not. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #19 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. That statement made me wince a bit. Someone with low experience doesn't have enough jumps yet to know whether something is being done correctly or not. Just because they've got away with it so far, doesn't mean that it is the best way. Maybe they've just been lucky. Maybe the failure rate that way is very low to start with, but could be even lower done differently. At any rate, just because it's been done that way for several hundred jumps without a problem, by one new jumper, doesn't mean that it is okay. _____________________________ The way I see it is, it just seems to be better to bring the main risers, flat over the shoulders. The toggles are between the reserve pack and the risers. Slide the risers between the riser covers and the sides of the reserve pack. The pack job is much smoother when finished. I can't see either why, someone would want a half twist in their main risers and a 'lumpy' looking pack job. That was the way I was taught. With the toggles facing in, toward the reserve container. I have seen 'experienced' jumpers with well over 1000 jumps do it the other way, with no problem. That's why, I said what I did. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 August 28, 2006 I did find this in the Talon FS manual. "Step 3. Route main risers over shoulders and close the main riser covers and route the main risers down along side the reserve container. Main toggles face inboard" This would be my recommendation because as Chuck brought up, it prevents a half twist in the risers. Riggers by and large anal about things and feel better when thing are done in a certain way. If there are 2 possible ways to do something we will debate it down to just 1 way and that will become the only correct way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #21 August 29, 2006 QuoteI did find this in the Talon FS manual. "Step 3. Route main risers over shoulders and close the main riser covers and route the main risers down along side the reserve container. Main toggles face inboard" This would be my recommendation because as Chuck Breezy brought up, it prevents a half twist in the risers. Riggers by and large anal about things and feel better when thing are done in a certain way. If there are 2 possible ways to do something we will debate it down to just 1 way and that will become the only correct way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackR 0 #22 August 31, 2006 (Can't resist getting my $0.02 in.) I think Beezy provided the best explaination here about where the guidance for stowing the toggles inboard came from. If you've ever seen one of these older rigs in person, you'll appreciate just how important it was to stow the toggles inboard. I used to repack a Sweethog for a client until I even was too scared of it. I recommended belly to earth flying from the first time I saw it. He insisted on sit flying and head down flying. It was really scary. I double checked the Flexon manual and it does say to stow the toggles outboard. I don't have a Flexon handy in the loft right now, but I believe the riser routing is different from other rigs. I believe there was also a version of the Racer which also rolled the risers in such a way that the toggles were outboard. Other than these two rigs, I am not aware of another rig which pack with the toggles out. As you have already done, I also double checked the Eclipse packing manual (page 17, spte 9): Quote...Route the main risers over the shoulders of the rig and down along the sides of the main container so all slack is taken up and the main control handle assembly lays against the reserve container. Manufacturer votes IN. Yes, we all expect the master rigger to know what they are talking about. Unfortunately not all riggers are made alike. Listen to what people tell you. Ask for explanations. Don't settle for "'Cause I said so." Look it up. Ask questions of others at the DZ. Continue to post questions to this forum. You can even ask questions of the manufacturers. If you don't have phone numbers, double check the PIA.com Yellow Pages. The manufacturer would rather answer your question today than fill out the incident report tomorrow. Blue Skies.Packin' Jack 42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving 25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009 2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #23 August 31, 2006 QuoteIf you've ever seen one of these older rigs in person, Hell, I not only saw the older rigs I jumped a bunch of them. Have you ever heard of the "Solution" by Rodriquez?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #24 August 31, 2006 LOL. How about using common sense? What if you buy a new microwave? Do you read the whole manual? How to warm food there? Do you check if it has something about drying pets inside? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #25 August 31, 2006 QuoteLOL. How about using common sense? What if you buy a new microwave? Do you read the whole manual? How to warm food there? Do you check if it has something about drying pets inside? No sure what you mean by that response but the use of common sense has got me this far. And yes I read the manual on everything I get. Haven’t you heard riggers are anal that way? Have you read the manual on your resever?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
masterrig 1 #9 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'm betting he's not a rigger!! It sounds like his personal "I have blah balah jumps, I know everything, blah blah" opinion. Tell him to "go pound sand". Talk to your local rigger he should know more than than your local "sky god". Mick. He's a master rigger. I've usually faced the toggles out on my Eclipse, but I have a smaller Infinity that I face them inwards. Haven't noticed any difference, and in asking another rigger yesterday, the response was "it doesn't matter anymore, we used to always face them inwards. If it's working for you, stick with it." On my smaller rig, the toggles fall inward naturally, but on my larger rig, they fall outward naturally, perhaps due to a 1" riser vs the 2?" Or maybe from the previous owner. Dunno. Either way, both seem comfortable, and both open correctly so far. Thanks for the input guys! _____________________________ Master rigger? Sounds like his wife burned his breakfast toast! What does the 'Owner's' manual for your harness container say? I do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. I've always placed the risers so the toggles are facing the sides of the reserve container, not facing the riser covers. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #10 August 28, 2006 If I recall correctly, only the Flexon manual says to face toggles outboard. ... but as Beezy said, with modern riser covers, it makes little difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites riggerrob 643 #11 August 28, 2006 QuoteI've been packing with my toggles facing in one direction for nearly 200 jumps. The other day one of the much more experienced was walking by, saw me packing the toggles, and practically tore my head off with a "No! F$#@! no! Who taught you that sh**? They MUST be faced XXX way." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't you just love dogmatic a$$holes? He knows enough to chew you a new a$$hole, but not enough to explain the theory behind his "better" method. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #12 August 28, 2006 Chuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #13 August 28, 2006 QuoteChuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. I don't have a manual for my Eclipse/Stunt, and the Infinity manual doesn't say which is preferable. Just says "Stow the risers under the riser cover flaps, laying them side by side. Place bag in container as shown, etc. It appears that historically, facing inward was necessary, and today it's not critical? I don't think I buy the argument that your toggles will snag on the riser covers and cause a brake-fire, but maybe that makes sense to someone? On both my Eclipse and Infinity, once you're past the 3 ring, everything is completely discreet (covered). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #14 August 28, 2006 QuoteChuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. ________________________________ WOW! Amazing! I guess, you and I and other riggers are more used to looking at the 'Reserve' portions of owner's manuals. Un-believable! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darnknit 0 #15 August 28, 2006 QuoteIf I recall correctly, only the Flexon manual says to face toggles outboard. para-flite eos as well, but i thought it was towards the floor rather than outboard on both rigs. pulling is cool. keep it in the skin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #16 August 28, 2006 QuoteI do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. That statement made me wince a bit. Someone with low experience doesn't have enough jumps yet to know whether something is being done correctly or not. Just because they've got away with it so far, doesn't mean that it is the best way. Maybe they've just been lucky. Maybe the failure rate that way is very low to start with, but could be even lower done differently. At any rate, just because it's been done that way for several hundred jumps without a problem, by one new jumper, doesn't mean that it is okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #17 August 28, 2006 QuoteOn today's gear, it still seems cleaner to route the toggles facing "in" because (on my rigs anyway) facing them "out" puts a half-twist in the main risers as they go down the sides of the reserve contaner. Bingo! That's something that no one else seems to be considering. Why would anyone intentionally put a half twist in their risers? Just lay the risers down flat from the three-rings to the pack tray, which puts the toggle inboard. How simple can it get? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeffrey 1 #18 August 28, 2006 Quote ***I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. QuoteSome are and some are not. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #19 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. That statement made me wince a bit. Someone with low experience doesn't have enough jumps yet to know whether something is being done correctly or not. Just because they've got away with it so far, doesn't mean that it is the best way. Maybe they've just been lucky. Maybe the failure rate that way is very low to start with, but could be even lower done differently. At any rate, just because it's been done that way for several hundred jumps without a problem, by one new jumper, doesn't mean that it is okay. _____________________________ The way I see it is, it just seems to be better to bring the main risers, flat over the shoulders. The toggles are between the reserve pack and the risers. Slide the risers between the riser covers and the sides of the reserve pack. The pack job is much smoother when finished. I can't see either why, someone would want a half twist in their main risers and a 'lumpy' looking pack job. That was the way I was taught. With the toggles facing in, toward the reserve container. I have seen 'experienced' jumpers with well over 1000 jumps do it the other way, with no problem. That's why, I said what I did. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 August 28, 2006 I did find this in the Talon FS manual. "Step 3. Route main risers over shoulders and close the main riser covers and route the main risers down along side the reserve container. Main toggles face inboard" This would be my recommendation because as Chuck brought up, it prevents a half twist in the risers. Riggers by and large anal about things and feel better when thing are done in a certain way. If there are 2 possible ways to do something we will debate it down to just 1 way and that will become the only correct way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #21 August 29, 2006 QuoteI did find this in the Talon FS manual. "Step 3. Route main risers over shoulders and close the main riser covers and route the main risers down along side the reserve container. Main toggles face inboard" This would be my recommendation because as Chuck Breezy brought up, it prevents a half twist in the risers. Riggers by and large anal about things and feel better when thing are done in a certain way. If there are 2 possible ways to do something we will debate it down to just 1 way and that will become the only correct way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackR 0 #22 August 31, 2006 (Can't resist getting my $0.02 in.) I think Beezy provided the best explaination here about where the guidance for stowing the toggles inboard came from. If you've ever seen one of these older rigs in person, you'll appreciate just how important it was to stow the toggles inboard. I used to repack a Sweethog for a client until I even was too scared of it. I recommended belly to earth flying from the first time I saw it. He insisted on sit flying and head down flying. It was really scary. I double checked the Flexon manual and it does say to stow the toggles outboard. I don't have a Flexon handy in the loft right now, but I believe the riser routing is different from other rigs. I believe there was also a version of the Racer which also rolled the risers in such a way that the toggles were outboard. Other than these two rigs, I am not aware of another rig which pack with the toggles out. As you have already done, I also double checked the Eclipse packing manual (page 17, spte 9): Quote...Route the main risers over the shoulders of the rig and down along the sides of the main container so all slack is taken up and the main control handle assembly lays against the reserve container. Manufacturer votes IN. Yes, we all expect the master rigger to know what they are talking about. Unfortunately not all riggers are made alike. Listen to what people tell you. Ask for explanations. Don't settle for "'Cause I said so." Look it up. Ask questions of others at the DZ. Continue to post questions to this forum. You can even ask questions of the manufacturers. If you don't have phone numbers, double check the PIA.com Yellow Pages. The manufacturer would rather answer your question today than fill out the incident report tomorrow. Blue Skies.Packin' Jack 42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving 25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009 2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #23 August 31, 2006 QuoteIf you've ever seen one of these older rigs in person, Hell, I not only saw the older rigs I jumped a bunch of them. Have you ever heard of the "Solution" by Rodriquez?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #24 August 31, 2006 LOL. How about using common sense? What if you buy a new microwave? Do you read the whole manual? How to warm food there? Do you check if it has something about drying pets inside? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #25 August 31, 2006 QuoteLOL. How about using common sense? What if you buy a new microwave? Do you read the whole manual? How to warm food there? Do you check if it has something about drying pets inside? No sure what you mean by that response but the use of common sense has got me this far. And yes I read the manual on everything I get. Haven’t you heard riggers are anal that way? Have you read the manual on your resever?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
riggerrob 643 #10 August 28, 2006 If I recall correctly, only the Flexon manual says to face toggles outboard. ... but as Beezy said, with modern riser covers, it makes little difference. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 643 #11 August 28, 2006 QuoteI've been packing with my toggles facing in one direction for nearly 200 jumps. The other day one of the much more experienced was walking by, saw me packing the toggles, and practically tore my head off with a "No! F$#@! no! Who taught you that sh**? They MUST be faced XXX way." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Don't you just love dogmatic a$$holes? He knows enough to chew you a new a$$hole, but not enough to explain the theory behind his "better" method. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #12 August 28, 2006 Chuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DSE 5 #13 August 28, 2006 QuoteChuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. I don't have a manual for my Eclipse/Stunt, and the Infinity manual doesn't say which is preferable. Just says "Stow the risers under the riser cover flaps, laying them side by side. Place bag in container as shown, etc. It appears that historically, facing inward was necessary, and today it's not critical? I don't think I buy the argument that your toggles will snag on the riser covers and cause a brake-fire, but maybe that makes sense to someone? On both my Eclipse and Infinity, once you're past the 3 ring, everything is completely discreet (covered). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #14 August 28, 2006 QuoteChuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. ________________________________ WOW! Amazing! I guess, you and I and other riggers are more used to looking at the 'Reserve' portions of owner's manuals. Un-believable! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites darnknit 0 #15 August 28, 2006 QuoteIf I recall correctly, only the Flexon manual says to face toggles outboard. para-flite eos as well, but i thought it was towards the floor rather than outboard on both rigs. pulling is cool. keep it in the skin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #16 August 28, 2006 QuoteI do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. That statement made me wince a bit. Someone with low experience doesn't have enough jumps yet to know whether something is being done correctly or not. Just because they've got away with it so far, doesn't mean that it is the best way. Maybe they've just been lucky. Maybe the failure rate that way is very low to start with, but could be even lower done differently. At any rate, just because it's been done that way for several hundred jumps without a problem, by one new jumper, doesn't mean that it is okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #17 August 28, 2006 QuoteOn today's gear, it still seems cleaner to route the toggles facing "in" because (on my rigs anyway) facing them "out" puts a half-twist in the main risers as they go down the sides of the reserve contaner. Bingo! That's something that no one else seems to be considering. Why would anyone intentionally put a half twist in their risers? Just lay the risers down flat from the three-rings to the pack tray, which puts the toggle inboard. How simple can it get? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Jeffrey 1 #18 August 28, 2006 Quote ***I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. QuoteSome are and some are not. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #19 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. That statement made me wince a bit. Someone with low experience doesn't have enough jumps yet to know whether something is being done correctly or not. Just because they've got away with it so far, doesn't mean that it is the best way. Maybe they've just been lucky. Maybe the failure rate that way is very low to start with, but could be even lower done differently. At any rate, just because it's been done that way for several hundred jumps without a problem, by one new jumper, doesn't mean that it is okay. _____________________________ The way I see it is, it just seems to be better to bring the main risers, flat over the shoulders. The toggles are between the reserve pack and the risers. Slide the risers between the riser covers and the sides of the reserve pack. The pack job is much smoother when finished. I can't see either why, someone would want a half twist in their main risers and a 'lumpy' looking pack job. That was the way I was taught. With the toggles facing in, toward the reserve container. I have seen 'experienced' jumpers with well over 1000 jumps do it the other way, with no problem. That's why, I said what I did. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 August 28, 2006 I did find this in the Talon FS manual. "Step 3. Route main risers over shoulders and close the main riser covers and route the main risers down along side the reserve container. Main toggles face inboard" This would be my recommendation because as Chuck brought up, it prevents a half twist in the risers. Riggers by and large anal about things and feel better when thing are done in a certain way. If there are 2 possible ways to do something we will debate it down to just 1 way and that will become the only correct way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #21 August 29, 2006 QuoteI did find this in the Talon FS manual. "Step 3. Route main risers over shoulders and close the main riser covers and route the main risers down along side the reserve container. Main toggles face inboard" This would be my recommendation because as Chuck Breezy brought up, it prevents a half twist in the risers. Riggers by and large anal about things and feel better when thing are done in a certain way. If there are 2 possible ways to do something we will debate it down to just 1 way and that will become the only correct way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackR 0 #22 August 31, 2006 (Can't resist getting my $0.02 in.) I think Beezy provided the best explaination here about where the guidance for stowing the toggles inboard came from. If you've ever seen one of these older rigs in person, you'll appreciate just how important it was to stow the toggles inboard. I used to repack a Sweethog for a client until I even was too scared of it. I recommended belly to earth flying from the first time I saw it. He insisted on sit flying and head down flying. It was really scary. I double checked the Flexon manual and it does say to stow the toggles outboard. I don't have a Flexon handy in the loft right now, but I believe the riser routing is different from other rigs. I believe there was also a version of the Racer which also rolled the risers in such a way that the toggles were outboard. Other than these two rigs, I am not aware of another rig which pack with the toggles out. As you have already done, I also double checked the Eclipse packing manual (page 17, spte 9): Quote...Route the main risers over the shoulders of the rig and down along the sides of the main container so all slack is taken up and the main control handle assembly lays against the reserve container. Manufacturer votes IN. Yes, we all expect the master rigger to know what they are talking about. Unfortunately not all riggers are made alike. Listen to what people tell you. Ask for explanations. Don't settle for "'Cause I said so." Look it up. Ask questions of others at the DZ. Continue to post questions to this forum. You can even ask questions of the manufacturers. If you don't have phone numbers, double check the PIA.com Yellow Pages. The manufacturer would rather answer your question today than fill out the incident report tomorrow. Blue Skies.Packin' Jack 42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving 25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009 2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #23 August 31, 2006 QuoteIf you've ever seen one of these older rigs in person, Hell, I not only saw the older rigs I jumped a bunch of them. Have you ever heard of the "Solution" by Rodriquez?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #24 August 31, 2006 LOL. How about using common sense? What if you buy a new microwave? Do you read the whole manual? How to warm food there? Do you check if it has something about drying pets inside? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #25 August 31, 2006 QuoteLOL. How about using common sense? What if you buy a new microwave? Do you read the whole manual? How to warm food there? Do you check if it has something about drying pets inside? No sure what you mean by that response but the use of common sense has got me this far. And yes I read the manual on everything I get. Haven’t you heard riggers are anal that way? Have you read the manual on your resever?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
mjosparky 4 #12 August 28, 2006 Chuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DSE 5 #13 August 28, 2006 QuoteChuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. I don't have a manual for my Eclipse/Stunt, and the Infinity manual doesn't say which is preferable. Just says "Stow the risers under the riser cover flaps, laying them side by side. Place bag in container as shown, etc. It appears that historically, facing inward was necessary, and today it's not critical? I don't think I buy the argument that your toggles will snag on the riser covers and cause a brake-fire, but maybe that makes sense to someone? On both my Eclipse and Infinity, once you're past the 3 ring, everything is completely discreet (covered). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #14 August 28, 2006 QuoteChuck, When I first read the question I went and looked through several packing manuals. I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. ________________________________ WOW! Amazing! I guess, you and I and other riggers are more used to looking at the 'Reserve' portions of owner's manuals. Un-believable! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
darnknit 0 #15 August 28, 2006 QuoteIf I recall correctly, only the Flexon manual says to face toggles outboard. para-flite eos as well, but i thought it was towards the floor rather than outboard on both rigs. pulling is cool. keep it in the skin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #16 August 28, 2006 QuoteI do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. That statement made me wince a bit. Someone with low experience doesn't have enough jumps yet to know whether something is being done correctly or not. Just because they've got away with it so far, doesn't mean that it is the best way. Maybe they've just been lucky. Maybe the failure rate that way is very low to start with, but could be even lower done differently. At any rate, just because it's been done that way for several hundred jumps without a problem, by one new jumper, doesn't mean that it is okay. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #17 August 28, 2006 QuoteOn today's gear, it still seems cleaner to route the toggles facing "in" because (on my rigs anyway) facing them "out" puts a half-twist in the main risers as they go down the sides of the reserve contaner. Bingo! That's something that no one else seems to be considering. Why would anyone intentionally put a half twist in their risers? Just lay the risers down flat from the three-rings to the pack tray, which puts the toggle inboard. How simple can it get? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jeffrey 1 #18 August 28, 2006 Quote ***I was amazed at how this portion of main packing is almost completely overlooked. I did not find one manual that said how to stow the risers. QuoteSome are and some are not. Jeff Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #19 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. That statement made me wince a bit. Someone with low experience doesn't have enough jumps yet to know whether something is being done correctly or not. Just because they've got away with it so far, doesn't mean that it is the best way. Maybe they've just been lucky. Maybe the failure rate that way is very low to start with, but could be even lower done differently. At any rate, just because it's been done that way for several hundred jumps without a problem, by one new jumper, doesn't mean that it is okay. _____________________________ The way I see it is, it just seems to be better to bring the main risers, flat over the shoulders. The toggles are between the reserve pack and the risers. Slide the risers between the riser covers and the sides of the reserve pack. The pack job is much smoother when finished. I can't see either why, someone would want a half twist in their main risers and a 'lumpy' looking pack job. That was the way I was taught. With the toggles facing in, toward the reserve container. I have seen 'experienced' jumpers with well over 1000 jumps do it the other way, with no problem. That's why, I said what I did. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #20 August 28, 2006 I did find this in the Talon FS manual. "Step 3. Route main risers over shoulders and close the main riser covers and route the main risers down along side the reserve container. Main toggles face inboard" This would be my recommendation because as Chuck brought up, it prevents a half twist in the risers. Riggers by and large anal about things and feel better when thing are done in a certain way. If there are 2 possible ways to do something we will debate it down to just 1 way and that will become the only correct way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #21 August 29, 2006 QuoteI did find this in the Talon FS manual. "Step 3. Route main risers over shoulders and close the main riser covers and route the main risers down along side the reserve container. Main toggles face inboard" This would be my recommendation because as Chuck Breezy brought up, it prevents a half twist in the risers. Riggers by and large anal about things and feel better when thing are done in a certain way. If there are 2 possible ways to do something we will debate it down to just 1 way and that will become the only correct way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JackR 0 #22 August 31, 2006 (Can't resist getting my $0.02 in.) I think Beezy provided the best explaination here about where the guidance for stowing the toggles inboard came from. If you've ever seen one of these older rigs in person, you'll appreciate just how important it was to stow the toggles inboard. I used to repack a Sweethog for a client until I even was too scared of it. I recommended belly to earth flying from the first time I saw it. He insisted on sit flying and head down flying. It was really scary. I double checked the Flexon manual and it does say to stow the toggles outboard. I don't have a Flexon handy in the loft right now, but I believe the riser routing is different from other rigs. I believe there was also a version of the Racer which also rolled the risers in such a way that the toggles were outboard. Other than these two rigs, I am not aware of another rig which pack with the toggles out. As you have already done, I also double checked the Eclipse packing manual (page 17, spte 9): Quote...Route the main risers over the shoulders of the rig and down along the sides of the main container so all slack is taken up and the main control handle assembly lays against the reserve container. Manufacturer votes IN. Yes, we all expect the master rigger to know what they are talking about. Unfortunately not all riggers are made alike. Listen to what people tell you. Ask for explanations. Don't settle for "'Cause I said so." Look it up. Ask questions of others at the DZ. Continue to post questions to this forum. You can even ask questions of the manufacturers. If you don't have phone numbers, double check the PIA.com Yellow Pages. The manufacturer would rather answer your question today than fill out the incident report tomorrow. Blue Skies.Packin' Jack 42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving 25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009 2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #23 August 31, 2006 QuoteIf you've ever seen one of these older rigs in person, Hell, I not only saw the older rigs I jumped a bunch of them. Have you ever heard of the "Solution" by Rodriquez?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites phoenixlpr 0 #24 August 31, 2006 LOL. How about using common sense? What if you buy a new microwave? Do you read the whole manual? How to warm food there? Do you check if it has something about drying pets inside? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mjosparky 4 #25 August 31, 2006 QuoteLOL. How about using common sense? What if you buy a new microwave? Do you read the whole manual? How to warm food there? Do you check if it has something about drying pets inside? No sure what you mean by that response but the use of common sense has got me this far. And yes I read the manual on everything I get. Haven’t you heard riggers are anal that way? Have you read the manual on your resever?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
masterrig 1 #19 August 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI do, tend to agree with the idea that, that the way you've been doing it has been working so, no problem. That statement made me wince a bit. Someone with low experience doesn't have enough jumps yet to know whether something is being done correctly or not. Just because they've got away with it so far, doesn't mean that it is the best way. Maybe they've just been lucky. Maybe the failure rate that way is very low to start with, but could be even lower done differently. At any rate, just because it's been done that way for several hundred jumps without a problem, by one new jumper, doesn't mean that it is okay. _____________________________ The way I see it is, it just seems to be better to bring the main risers, flat over the shoulders. The toggles are between the reserve pack and the risers. Slide the risers between the riser covers and the sides of the reserve pack. The pack job is much smoother when finished. I can't see either why, someone would want a half twist in their main risers and a 'lumpy' looking pack job. That was the way I was taught. With the toggles facing in, toward the reserve container. I have seen 'experienced' jumpers with well over 1000 jumps do it the other way, with no problem. That's why, I said what I did. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #20 August 28, 2006 I did find this in the Talon FS manual. "Step 3. Route main risers over shoulders and close the main riser covers and route the main risers down along side the reserve container. Main toggles face inboard" This would be my recommendation because as Chuck brought up, it prevents a half twist in the risers. Riggers by and large anal about things and feel better when thing are done in a certain way. If there are 2 possible ways to do something we will debate it down to just 1 way and that will become the only correct way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #21 August 29, 2006 QuoteI did find this in the Talon FS manual. "Step 3. Route main risers over shoulders and close the main riser covers and route the main risers down along side the reserve container. Main toggles face inboard" This would be my recommendation because as Chuck Breezy brought up, it prevents a half twist in the risers. Riggers by and large anal about things and feel better when thing are done in a certain way. If there are 2 possible ways to do something we will debate it down to just 1 way and that will become the only correct way.My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JackR 0 #22 August 31, 2006 (Can't resist getting my $0.02 in.) I think Beezy provided the best explaination here about where the guidance for stowing the toggles inboard came from. If you've ever seen one of these older rigs in person, you'll appreciate just how important it was to stow the toggles inboard. I used to repack a Sweethog for a client until I even was too scared of it. I recommended belly to earth flying from the first time I saw it. He insisted on sit flying and head down flying. It was really scary. I double checked the Flexon manual and it does say to stow the toggles outboard. I don't have a Flexon handy in the loft right now, but I believe the riser routing is different from other rigs. I believe there was also a version of the Racer which also rolled the risers in such a way that the toggles were outboard. Other than these two rigs, I am not aware of another rig which pack with the toggles out. As you have already done, I also double checked the Eclipse packing manual (page 17, spte 9): Quote...Route the main risers over the shoulders of the rig and down along the sides of the main container so all slack is taken up and the main control handle assembly lays against the reserve container. Manufacturer votes IN. Yes, we all expect the master rigger to know what they are talking about. Unfortunately not all riggers are made alike. Listen to what people tell you. Ask for explanations. Don't settle for "'Cause I said so." Look it up. Ask questions of others at the DZ. Continue to post questions to this forum. You can even ask questions of the manufacturers. If you don't have phone numbers, double check the PIA.com Yellow Pages. The manufacturer would rather answer your question today than fill out the incident report tomorrow. Blue Skies.Packin' Jack 42nd Lost Prairie: The Ultimate Answer to Life, the Universe, and Skydiving 25 Jul - 3 Aug 2009 2007 photos: http://www.skydive.com/prairie/pages/prairie.htm Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #23 August 31, 2006 QuoteIf you've ever seen one of these older rigs in person, Hell, I not only saw the older rigs I jumped a bunch of them. Have you ever heard of the "Solution" by Rodriquez?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phoenixlpr 0 #24 August 31, 2006 LOL. How about using common sense? What if you buy a new microwave? Do you read the whole manual? How to warm food there? Do you check if it has something about drying pets inside? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #25 August 31, 2006 QuoteLOL. How about using common sense? What if you buy a new microwave? Do you read the whole manual? How to warm food there? Do you check if it has something about drying pets inside? No sure what you mean by that response but the use of common sense has got me this far. And yes I read the manual on everything I get. Haven’t you heard riggers are anal that way? Have you read the manual on your resever?My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
